e,

I'm sure there's probably some differences in growth habit between cultivars, but it's probably minimal.

Most open-grown persimmons tend toward a spreading, orchard-type habit - but certainly those growing in a high stem-density setting, or under forest canopy tend to be upright - I have some that are now at the forest edge - but were originally deep in the woods - that are 'timber-type', 30 ft or more to the first branch.

Grafted specimens probably will be less likely to be 'upright', as that tends to be a 'juvenile' trait, and if you're using 'mature' budwood, it may even be difficult to maintain a central leader habit without quite a bit of early interventional pruning.

Thanks, Lucky. I wouldn't have expected differences between varieties to be very great, but even the trees I know of that I'm pretty sure were grown in the open are mostly not very spreading. I should take and post a photo of the one really spreading tree I know of. It's really beautiful.

As obvious as it seems now, I hadn't thought of the difference between a seedling tree (juvenile traits) and a grafted tree in terms of form. That may be most significant to my present considerations.

Szukis is a small tree, which is nice, because it is mostly used as a pollinator for female American persimmons. It is like 70% male, 30% female, I think.

John S
PDX OR

e,

There's probably some scholarly articles published somewhere, but my evidence is somewhat anecdotal, based on observation and discussion with folks who've been at it way longer than me.

Dr. David Griffith, a long-time southern pear enthusiast, was also a collector of Southern black walnuts with superior timber type (not very common once you get south of KY/TN) - and he'd expressed quite a bit of exasperation at trying to 'restore juvenility' in trees grafted with scions from those big, old mature BWs - the grafts just did not 'want' to make an upright, rapidly-growing tree with the clear bole needed for timber/veneer production - presumably due to 'switching off' of genes coding for that type of growth in the mature tree.

If you think of the difference between thorny, upright seedling citrus and the more spreading, thornless(or at least less-thorny), orchard trees produced by using 'old budline' plant material...I think it's a good illustration of the phenomenon.

That makes perfect sense, Lucky. Thanks again. Actually, it made sense to me right away, but I just hadn't considered it in this instance. You make me think that people ought to place more value in work like Oikos Tree Crops is doing. I wish there were a nursery like them doing things without such cold climate bias.