Without the metaphors, what is the pot like? Does it have a hole in the bottom?

apologies for the creative writing.

The pot is unglazed natural clay and has a good size hole in the bottom, covered by a piece of drywall tape (basically same as fiberglass screening) to hold the media in. It is 6" high, 6" diameter at the top, tapering to 4" diameter at the bottom.

I'm wondering if I understand the question?

Based on your soil choice, the pot isn't (couldn't be) too large, and won't be too small for a while ..... and upon becoming too small the condition is easily remedied via an appropriately timed repotting session.

Al

There are many naysayers when it comes to "overpotting" especially succulents, including many growers much more experienced than myself with very nice plants. But, no real question I guess.

It does reason that a large pot of any mix will stay damp longer than a smaller one, especially when not filled with thirsty roots. Even if not standing in water, I can intuit how some plants - especially succulents - may not prefer this situation - but, wanted to try and see what happens for myself. And of course I have read many of your (Al's) writings saying it's almost impossible to overpot in a well draining/aerated mix.

I guess I hope it grows faster/better than it would in a smaller container, and I will document progress here. Not doing a science experiment, so no control, other than my other small (but none quite this small) Crassula in smaller pots, otherwise in similar cultural conditions.

Daniel

If you work at over-watering, you can do it; and in all honesty, if there's to be an issue with too much water retention, from now until after the vernal equinox is the period during which the plant is most at risk. I've regularly put small trees in very large pots (with gritty mix) because I wanted to realize as much growth as possible. If you take the same pains not to over-water as you would growing in the 5:1:1 mix, you'll be fine.

Al

Daniel

..."There are many naysayers when it comes to "overpotting" especially succulents"...

The first reason to mention over-potting is most likely where grower is using more water-retentive mix/soil (that is very often...). Plants coming from the store are sometimes (often?) in relatively small pots, and first instinct is to give it more room. Especially newbies, I think - I did! - assume that bigger pot is much better and soil doesn't come into consideration.

As a second reason, it may be that small plant in big container seems to be lost, so more of aesthetics...Otherwise, if using well-draining mix, it most likely doesn't matter and if you want to see if it grows faster and bigger in large pot, that's the only way to go.

If I may say so, I would plant it little higher - JMO - but to me, the extra rim space creates little 'shade'. And a personal preference - I like all of the plant visible. I like plants on top of little mound, just the way bonsai is...

Rina

Thanks everyone, this is exactly the conversation I hoped to have when posting this. In this case I'm weighing the pot on a scale to have an idea of how much moisture is left, because I can be obsessive like that - my version of a skewer, and it doesn't disturb roots.

I do have my specially modified watering can for when more control is needed, I made it few years ago based on something I read on gardenweb, I suspect by Al - A 1 quart can, with a 1/8" opening formed by using sugru around a 1/8" drill bit. It's excellent for all smaller pots or any situation where you'd rather not hit the foliage at all.

I might even try distilled water and not fully saturating the pot, but for now my tap water is about 45ppm TDS, so I'm not that worried.

My humidity is currently dropping, and I haven't turned on the humidifier yet. But I probably will at some point.

Rina, I enjoy the feedback you give on the finer details, and have benefitted more than once so do keep it up. I could and should have put it a little higher, in hindsight.

Daniel

See, Rina? ;-)

Al

..."There are many naysayers when it comes to "overpotting" especially succulents"...

And there are many naysayers when it comes to under potting succulents as well.

I'm guilty as charged in both counts under potting and over potting succulents and find no ill effects resulting from either over or under potting

I'm also guilty of not using skewers, scales when watering I do water

The only thing I notice is: Depending on the annual speed of growth of a succulent a bigger pot holds the same exact succulent plant years longer than a smaller pot could.

A skillful grower will be successful in either case, it will rely on attention to detail and not overwatering. While many succulents do indeed grow in little rock pockets very similar to what we pot them in, many grow in the big wide soil of mother earth. Certainly not impossible, just different and more difficult.

A skillful grower can't be predictably successful in either case unless he can render an under-potted (root bound) plant immune from the effects of root congestion, or a just-rained-on plant that's over-potted in a water-retentive medium immune to the effects of prolonged soil saturation - yes?

Al

Al, respectfully, that's bunk. Have you never seen a huge plant in a tiny pot before in a neglected greenhouse? Obviously they could do better, but they're surviving and often flowering semi-happily...they adapt to what they have in that situation.

The over potted plant would be fine in a desert climate (outdoors) and watered skillfully manually...or in a sheltered location and also watered manually. The goal would not be to thoroughly saturate the whole pot...but to only water enough where the root mass is, unless soil texture and evaporation potential allow for the whole pot to be watered. Obviously this will present it's own problems similar to underpotting, where the root mass is essentially restricted to the watered zone...but it *CAN* be done.

In neither case is this ideal...but you can do it....

dbarron,

"Surviving" is a delicate condition that in the case of a plant is always tilted to one side or the other - each day brings death just a little closer, or growth a bit further along. There can be no stasis, unless time stops. This isn't philosophy, it's how the world actually works. As Dr. Alex Shigo most eloquently states in a quote I'm sure Al can produce at whim. I think it belongs on a t-shirt, maybe then I'll be able to remember it verbatim. something like "a plant that isn't growing is dying".

Some plants can straddle this line for many years, even staying the on wrong side (gradual decline), but that doesn't mean it is happening by grower choice.

I'm most interested in discussing how grower choice can move the dial over to "11" in the direction of growth, and specifically how pot size can affect it.

Why not just make the scale go to 10? These go to 11! [hopefully unobscure reference].

Daniel

Many plants are stimulated by repotting, some of it because the pot was too small, the media was compacted, etc.

We just do the best we can (usually)...though your plan is mostly for survival, not the optimum....on that Al and I both agree.

Hmmm - bunk? I can't imagine that anyone would consider the imaginary scenarios you described in which the plants were given credit for only surviving as a success story of a skillful grower. I'm thinking that a skillful grower wouldn't allow those scenarios to occur in the first place. I simply pointed to the fact that a skillful grower cannot make the plant immune to the effects of under-potting, and that is a certainty. Additionally, even the skillful grower must depend on the plant being under cover lest it rain on the over-potted plant, or be prepared to act on behalf of the plant to mitigate the effects of over-potting before they become effects ...... or else the skillful grower has failed. BTW - plants don't 'adapt' to root congestion or being over-potted. They simply suffer the limitations imposed by those conditions to varying degrees in direct relation to the severity of the root congestion and how much water the over-potted plant receives; and let's not forget that plants watered in sips (to avoid the effects of over-potting) are very prone to increasing EC/TDS in/of the soil solution, which brings it's own set of problems the skilled grower should be able to avoid.

Al

Yes, i said it wasn't ideal and I see no reason for it...but apparently the OP does...and it *can* be done.

Daniel

Thank you..What is your current humidity? Do you think it will need to be increased and if, how high and why for a jade?

Al, Thank you :)

Rina,

Currently RH varies a lot, from 15 - 50%, somewhat randomly as the weather shifts and whether I end up watering everyone at the same time (not often, but when I do the humidity level on my 18x24" shelf goes up a measurable amount for quite a while).

RH will end up around 10% or slightly less somewhat consistently unless I do something. I will increase it not for the jade, but in spite of the jade - for the rest of my plants and my own comfort. The room with a majority of my plants has more than just plants in it. Other than Jade I primarily grow ficus and adenium (humidity loving tropical succulent - go figure). My goal will be to maintain around 50% RH @ 75 F for most of the winter. Best I can do anyway. It will definitely be colder in parts of the room at times.

I only had one Jade last year, in a different part of the house that had very low humidity. So I don't really know what will happen.

Daniel

Quoted : or a just-rained-on plant that's over-potted in a water-retentive medium immune to the effects of prolonged soil saturation - yes?

With an emphasis on soil saturation - Yes ?

larger sizes grit and other substrates that compose a soil that are also more porous enhance faster drainage thus providing less water retention in respect to any watering volume.

Over potting commonly occurs two ways A pot to big in diameter and/ or a pot to deep. Or a pot being over sized in both diameter and to deep.

Is your jade doomed ? Only if you want to become doomed then YES it could become doomed, but a doomed succulent resulting from a plants failure to adapt to over potted stresses is very difficult to project.

While I, ladies and gentlemen, prefer to take the middle road, so to speak, and pot my plants in containers that aren't too large or too small, thus giving them enough room to grow... what appears to my own eyes as aesthetically pleasing in that the plant appears to be in sync with its containerized environment... and by utilizing a substrate of larger particulate, avoiding limitations such as PWT and the problems associated, etc...

To me, convenience doesn't really play a role. I have plenty of variety in pot sizes, and I enjoy the opportunity to re-pot when necessary, getting my hands in the medium as part of the fun... and being able to see how the roots are doing while they're out of medium and in my hands.

I tend to look at it thus... I wear shoes and clothing that fit my body... though I don't like them too tight or too loose, each of which presents its own problems.

I like my plants to "wear" containers that fit, as well... though not too tight or too loose, which might present problems.

Just my 2 cents... :-)

In reference to over potting : Some may ask why have room for something ( roots) that haven't even developed yet?

Question 2 in 2 parts Daniel how do you compare an over potted jade that is getting better attention and care in your home to a neglected over potted jade in a neglected hot house that may or may not have been seen by someone else ? Part 2 of this question is can you even begin to describe what a neglected hot house looks like ?

I ask because: Considering that anybody with a KEEN eye will see a neglected plant at a garden center. They're commonly HIDDEN in an out of public view area Why they hide neglected items? The garden center ( pros as they call themselves) wont arose neglected plant suspicions from the public.

Just as a pointer All plants ( succulents included) don't grow at all if all one does is neglect it.

Best advice I have to offer you is, not ever believe the phrase ( that has been read a few to many times from to many people ) saying, " I neglect my plant and it thrives"

Personally I think you should continue with your over potted succulent experiment .I also think if things should go wrong during your experiment I would also encourage you to make the needed changes for better result. Keep the over all plant health more of the upfront priority than your ambitions to re-preach your skills to any the more skilled cultivators.

I can't begin to describe anything to do with a hot house and so certainly can't make those comparisons. I do agree that what works in one environment might not work in another.

I'm not advocating that bigger pots are better for everyone in any situation, or for anyone in any situation. I want to see what the effect is given my environment and practices - certainly, that's all anyone can do.

I do agree that what works in one environment might not work in another.

Quick study as you are ( which is a good thing) most anybody will agree that more than two different environments are needed for any one plant to be healthy.

Update, so far so good. Wish I had taken a side shot back in December. Decent growth for the winter, even with lights. Starting to branch.