Just want to reiterate the posters encouraging you to contact your insurance company. At least a portion of this should be covered. We had water damage in our kitchen due to a leak, and our insurance covered demo and replacement / repair of all damaged cabinetry, tiles, subfloor, walls, etc. it wasn't what we ended up spending because we chose to the the opportunity to redo the entire kitchen, but it helped.

THIS is why many people opt for acrylic shower pans and walls. A quality tile bathroom costs $$$$ and requires expertise to construct. If you cannot afford the high price tag go with the acrylic. Better to sacrifice "looks" than go cheap and wind up ripping it all out later.

@GN in all my years I have yet to see the Trash bag approach as an actual pan liner.. Thx for sharing that.

Insurance covers catastrophic leaks. IF you have a flood rider. Most standard homeowners doesn't cover floods anymore.

Long term slow leaks aren't covered by any insurance that I've ever had experience with. All a claim does is put you on notice in the database as having mold issues so they can deny coverage at a later time.

@GN Builders L.L.C Thanks for sharing. You literally can't make this crap up. Seeing is believing. This recent spat of horrible tiling on this site is a lesson for all. Thank you for the homeowners brave enough to post your bad jobs and thank you for the pro's responding with their expertise and free advice. Unacceptable. @Katie. I hope this works out for you. By posting this I think you are helping out other homeowners.

thanks for all the comments. i am really doing some research to find the right people to do this and to educate myself. I already filed a claim with insurance and from what ive heard, its 50/50 that it will be covered so im preparing myself to have to cover this cost out of pocket. I will leave updates as this unfolds. I genuinely appreciate the time everyone has taken to comment.

You come across some bad jobs being in this field and its terrible how far some will go to ruin or destroy someone's home and they come with recommendations.

There is so fly-by-night contractors advertise on Craigslist and most botched up jobs been done by people who were hired from there. I guess they bait people with a cheap price that any legitimate contractor cannot do the work for that price and I guess homeowners dive head first at the opportunity to score on theirs remodeling project.

Today you cannot even trust some websites who promote “screened contractor” or other professional services. Some charge monthly fees or pay-per-lead so as long as someone pays, they promote them.

Nowadays, you have to be educated before you hire someone, re-search materials, read up manufacturer specification about proper installation, most companies or contractors have videos showing proper installation methods, etc. When you hire someone, make sure you have licenses, warranties, permits, insurance, etc.

Make sure you follow up all the information they provide, call the state and make sure the license they provide is valid, call the township and make sure the permit that hanging the window was issued by your township, etc.

I have seen so many people being ripped off and when homeowner showed me the contract, the company don't exist and never existed, permit placement cards for the job site came from diffrent jobs with modified address on them, trucks with fake magnetic signs, etc.

You have to be a savvy customer and follow due diligence and do your research.

Good luck with all your remodeling!

It's the floor and doesn't need to be more than the floor. The base material would be plywood and then concrete board over the top. If those are removed the floor and the joists or beams are fine then just the layers removed need to be replaced.

I would recommend taking up the entire floor including the shower if you plan on staying in the house for more than 5 years.

Remember the whole floor

Plywood sheeting

Cement board over plywood on entire bath floor.

Tile

^And that is why you do your due diligence. Because you have designers and contractors who are ignorant of the proper methodology of shower construction and correct waterproofing techniques.

Normally, a slow leak water loss (happens over time) would not be covered on a homeowner policy. Sudden an accidental i.e. washing machine hose breaks, toilet or sink overflow, toilet hose breaks ( don't use the hoses with plastic washers, they break ) are covered. That being said, there are carriers which will cover slow leaks by endorsement ( an endorsement adds to or takes away coverage) on a policy. The slow leak endorsement does cost you extra. Check with your insurance agent to find out if you have the coverage or if it is available on your policy. Understand, each state has variables on homeowner policies as insurance is state regulated.

Tips for KT

Source A TCNA/ANSI approved installation and get it in writing with a written wrrty.

The TCNA has Numbered specifications relating to curbless installs for homes constructed like yours.

Make sure this tile contractor has a flood clause added to their policy in place before they flood test youre shower pan.( as this is normal for plumbers but I had to add it w/my poilicy for my flood tests)

Again Insist on A Inspected Shower pan "Flood test" and be present to watch al the water drain out and that it dries ( w/no pools or birdbaths).

If You do go curbless insist youre installer adds a "capillary break" and that the change of plane's and walls adjoining the floor are properly waterproofed outside the shower past the "capillary break" and the floor past that as well is graded towards the shower.

The biggest problem with curbless showers is You need an expert at recessing structure as well as expert at tile & plumbing.. This is why many times A good GC needs be involved as its a rare breed to find a Tile contractor that can properly recess the structure ( SOG or lumber (( Pat myself on the back here !!! )) many times we need to cut into or lower the joists and this can at times even require a structural engineer to spec the recess/headers carry the new loads etc.. Other times it can be pretty ez in the form of cleating.

You do have a LOT of research to do and it is not easy when you cannot trust the contractor pool available and all the misinformation of the interweb in an industry that sells the process as EZ....... while i cannot sit here and touch on all the finer points I hope this raises youre level of knowledge to research with... my intent is not to confuse but arm you with points to consider -Best

Yes, check the state board that governs contractors to see if there are any complaints and confirm they are bonded and insured. Get references, too.

The problem started in the shower. Was there even a shower pan installed? Could go on and on with technical questions and analysis which only a very skilled tile contractor can understand (and on site). A few responders above have provided good advice. Yes, tear out and re-do (sorry). I will offer another bit of advice for houzzers and the OP: Ask for the invoices/warranties, etc. when you make an offer on a house, especially for "recently renovated". Tile is tricky. It is possible to get a good looking facade but with very poor quality (it's all about the prep). As a new buyer you can do some vetting of the contractors that were used. Yes, this requires some work, but we have seen many "recently renovated" (especially "flips") where short cuts were taken during installation but they sure looked pretty! - One reason we don't do "fix up to sell jobs", unless the owner is very serious about doing quality work. We have a small metal pin that we often install in some space (generally inconspicuous like behind a commode or wherever the homeowner wants it) as a signature of our work (it's a dragonfly). This is our signature and future homeowners know who did this work. It has become a selling point in our market and an advertising feature for realtors. Off topic I know but there ARE quality contractors and like many other pros here, we just want you all to find those you can trust. Good luck Katie and so sorry you have experienced this.

Doing the demo. Think we found a contractor ( that's been the biggest challenge) plan is to replace entire subfloor and reinstall everything, remove 2 ft of the white subway tiles to properly install liner...anyways, demoing the shower itself and wondering if this is normal

it's like grout and like dirt and then a liner under about 2 inch thickness layer of this stuff....just trying to unlock the mystery of what previous owners did to install this shower. Any insight appreciated

They only thing it could be is mortar.

Send a picture to the contractor. It could be disintegrating subfloor due to water damage?

It's an incorrectly formed mud pan with the liner flat on the floor.

I wonder how they re framed the floor system for the dropped shower pan? Send photos when it is all out!

Unfortunately as you are finding out Katie the only way to properly redo a bathroom is to pull everything out to bring it back to bare bones and start again. We have just spent three weeks pulling out everything in our bathroom (chipping tiles and glue off concrete etc ) and have found water damage under tiles which we thought were okay as they looked fine to the naked eye. When you can see the real damage then it can be fixed properly. Remember the three most important things in your new bathroom will be waterproofing, waterproofing, waterproofing.

Katie, I'm sorry this happened to you, and I commend you for educating yourself before going ahead. Here's a pretty quick read from master tiler John Bridge about how he installs his Kerdi showers: http://www.johnbridge.com/articles/showers/kerdi-showers/

It appears like a sand and cement floor mix (which is normal), but it also appears to be wet?

It is wet because the liner is underneath, flat on the floor. Moisture has seeped through thetileandgrout and saturated it. The pre-slope goes under the waterproofing.

Oh my! I feel for you. Homeowner's insurance will cover you if it's faulty construction done by a licensed contractor - regardless of sudden or slow leaks. But you'd have to have documentation of who did the work. I'm currently planning on gutting a master bath and my tile floor moves and makes way too much noise. Ha. All the grout is cracked and I'm under no illusion that the subfloor is in good condition. It's about a 4 year old remodel done with very cheap material off the shelf at Home Depot. You know, the $1 per sq ft gray tile? Like the other posters, I'd be suspect of the rest of the shows installation. Is there drywall on the other side of the shower valve? Might be a good idea to buy some piece of mind and cut open the drywall and check the back of the shower and the valve/plumbing for proper installation. Patching drywall is much cheaper and will tell you all you need to know about the shower wall installation. I'm just trying to save you a few bucks while giving you some piece of mind. If it's not installed correctly, then everything has to come out.

Live Wire Oak is correct that the mud bed was improperly created. The installer must be a twit to think that dirt is used to create a mud bed...smh

if the bed is bad, what must the walls be like? I would bet my last dollar it's not waterproofed. Trying to save the subway tiles is useless at this point. if the walls were done anywhere near as poorly as what we're seeing, then you are better off taking out the entire mess and redoing it.

Oh, it took me a minute, Cinar Interiors, Inc., but you think the contractor thought a mud bed meant actual mud?

Are you really thinking about a partial fix when you see this kind of a mess? I'm surprised the person you hired isn't suggesting a gut job. I would imagine nothing was done correctly and that there will be more problems later. Not even sure how you can professionally do only part of a shower??

You may also consider changing your pipes depending on their age....

Katie, we were only responding to the question you now have during demo regarding the "normalcy" of what you found (since your original dilemma question six weeks ago) . Happy you have secured what you think is a qualified contractor. Nobody here is able to advise you professionally based on the photos. An on-site qualified contractor is your best bet. Best wishes for a successful outcome.

Sadly I think this is a "close your eyes and swing for the fences" type of demo. Nitpicking at this is useless. It will waste time and increase your frustration. Every time you open up a little bit more wall/floor, you will find something new. And then you have to remove it anyway.

I think it is time to bite the bullet and rip everything down to the studs. Everything. Including the sink/cabinet. You might even have to look at the ceiling (how was the fan installed? Is it even "vented" properly or does it simply throw hot moist air into the attic and let it stew?).

I really think it is time to remove everything, right down to the studs and start again - totally fresh and with the full knowledge that you did everything right.

I'm so sorry you have inherited this mess. And I wish other homeowners who are looking for a quick fix for a quick sell will think about the next person down the line. How many times I have heard about people throwing in the "wrong" product into a bathroom saying, "I don't care. I won't live there in 5 years when it fails. Ha ha." Yes. They actually laugh! Grrrrr. Makes me SOOOO MAD!

The "mud bed", improper slope to the drain and no water proofing (I assume) is the culprit. This needs to be dealt with properly so that it doesn't happen again.

Glad you are getting this handled. I just had a mostly irrelevant observation- given the offset toilet drain piece and the curbless shower, I wonder if this wasn't mostly a DIY renovation to accommodate an elderly or disabled person. Like they did the offset drain ordered off the Internet with no code knowledge to get a bigger or higher toilet to fit in the space. Then followed YouTube to do the slope with "mud" and then hired a tiler who was a nephew of someone at church/work to lay some tile for free. I am not saying it excusing anything certainly. Just may give an explanation. And also may be would be good news if they only tried to mess with the floor so grandma didn't have a curb. It would mean the walls were as originally done vs the yahoo-ness of this floor job. Unfortunately you have to take it all down to find out while you are in there.

I would sort the floor out and get a shower try !

Everything in that bathroom needs to be taken back to the studs. The entire remodel is suspect. EVERYTHING. Electrical, framing, ventilation, insulation, and the plumbing certainly is not correct. I'd march right down to the local permit office and find out who's name was on this debacle. That is potential lawsuit time.

I am curious as to why everything would need to be replaced? Is there any evidence of mold? I had a similar situation (it was just as ccaro called it - the previous owner was aging and had a curbless shower installed without a permit.


The issue was discovered during the inspection, and they were required to ride the "leak" (there was a basement underneath, so it was obvious). However, there was a lot going on and I failed to follow up adequately to make sure the work had been done properly. I just check to see if it was still leaking, and it wasn't.


Turned out they had performed a makeshift fix from underneath. I had to have the floor torn up, and a shower pan put in, resulting in a curbed shower and the additional expense of a new, shorter, frameless shower door. I had the work done my a reputable contractor in an expensive area. All in, I think it cost 6k to fix, including the new shower door. Since the rest of the bathroom was OK aesthetically, I never considered a total re-do. Everything has been fine now for several years.

When you start to discover the utter garbage behind the shiny and pretty, it's a pretty clear indication that whomever did this had no clues. Out of sight shouldn't mean out of mind when it comes to construction issues. That only works right up until the house collapses from the improperly removed wall, or the fire starts from the improper buried junction box, or the termites start to swarm in your kitchen. When you find bad work, it isn't lonesome. It's not the sole incident. It's a pattern of hackery. You have to peel back everything and expose the ugly truth.

Ok maybe I am looking at this a little differently but that subfloor needed changing anyway if you were looking at ceramic/porcelain tiles anyway so the water damages are no big deal if no mold beyond the subfloor.

I would rather take that to the studs and use a prefabbed shower stall then leave half done and keep the tiles. At the least use a prefabbed pan if avail in your size. Tiled shower floors are always problems but are done for looks. I prefer a pan anyday I don't care if hot mopped, mortar, Shulter or whatever a solid pan reduces leaks end of story.

Insurance Co's only pay for the damages not what caused them. They also inspect for code violations. Once they have estimated your house will always be noted as having flood damages increasing insurance premiums due to possible mold.

When one part of a job is done so poorly, I'd assume the rest is as well. This calls into question the shower walls and how they were waterproofed. What if there is mold
back there? Hard to imagine the walls were done correctly with that mess of a floor.

We just ripped shower walls to the studs that were installed in 1957, not a hint of water damage, since it was done correctly. I'd also be worried about how the electrical was handled. Finally, might as well see if the pipes need replacing because if it was done so cheaply and on the fly maybe they just tiled over very old pipes.

UPDATE: just had a very reputable company out here for a look. They said they wouldn't do the job at all if we didn't take the tile off the walls. They want to install a Schluter system walls and shower and impermeable membrane. The more videos I watch and research I do, it seems that this is the best choice for optimal waterproofing, I doubt I can get the same level of assurance with just doing the floor. Am I correct in this assumption? I know this is going to cost more using a bigger company but I know they are licensed and insured and I will have some warranties and piece of mind. Will keep updating, thanks for all the feedback !

Good luck.

Full gut, and schluter is the best system. I'm still worried about the framing and plumbing ...

@ Katie....that's exactly what we have been saying since your first photo. Take it all down and start again. And yes, Ellsworth-Hallet has a serious point to make. It is very possible that the damage has been so extensive that it has gone all the way to the studs = structural concerns.

I say you are on the right track with the big company. I would also take a moment to go to the bank to find out the MAXIMUM LIMIT you can pull without getting into "bankruptcy" arena. Do yourself a favour and find out the full extent of what you can borrow - at least that way you will have a firm idea of what type of room you have BEFORE you open up those walls.

Opening up water soaked wall is like opening Pandora's Box (and not the cute "mall stores" from the 80s)...the mythological H3LL that exists in a box with Pandora's name on it.

Good luck. Talk to your bank so you can handle anything nasty that comes your way. It keeps you sane.

Keep you chin up Katie. Unfortunately it is probably going to cost the big bucks but you are certainly doing the right thing hiring a good company. Just grit your teeth and think of the end result - I am sure it will be beautiful. It does make me wonder though how many bathrooms are actually waterproofed properly. Time after time on Houzz we see question after question about tiles, vanities, lighting, etc., but very rarely does a question about waterproofing come up. Personally I don't think the percentage of bathrooms with the waterproofing spot on is very high. Tiles can hide anything (for a while).

Beyond just compromised or non existent waterproofing, the support joists for the home may have been altered incorrectly to do the space as a curbless. It would be in line with the lack of quality for the visible portions of the project. That is why it is imperative to do a complete deconstruction first. You have to know how bad it actually is before you can fully know the whole fix to repair.

Thank you, the contractor I am planning to work with did tell me that the previous installer cut into the joist to lower the level of the shower. We don't know yet if there was alternate support built to offset that. They are going to cut a hole in the shower subfloor to see what is going on down there before giving me an estimate. The entire bathroom is above a crawl space in my basement. She also mentioned checking the lights in the shower to make sure they are gcfi and checking to make sure the vent actually connects to the outside and doesn't just blow air into the attic (we checked and it actually IS properly installed) so I feel confident that my contractor is mentioning same concerns as the people kind enough to offer me advice on here.

Hi Katie! Read through the thread and was wondering if you were able to get your insurance company to cover the renovations required?

Yes, same here... just read through the thread - hoping and wondering if you were able to get this fixed properly (and for less than 30k)? Pictures?

insurance covered a fraction of the work needed. like, 1% of the cost. i wish i never even filed a claim, i tried to work with them and negotiate more $$ to no avail. They only cover the cost of the tile and installation of ONLY the floor tile. The damage was exstensive from the improper installation of the shower pan.

Its taken several meetings with several contractors, but I've found one that i am confident is reputable, they are a bigger local company with plenty of references and we are getting a 10 year money back guarantee of no water damage after the work is complete. The contractors are using the Schluter System, which I have read a great deal about online. We are tearing it all out and starting over. The necessary work is well under 20k. I decided against doing a patch job and just starting over since there was so much water damage. Of course I wanted a new vanity, and some other things because I figure "why not!?" since everything the previous owners did in there makes me sick. So construction starts February 27th. Will hopefully be sharing good news and posting pictures in the near future.

I wish you a stress free reno, good luck.

Here's to a fresh start in this room. I hope it becomes a space you love.

Fingers crossed!