Well, they may be responsive but they haven't been able to fix the problems for almost a year! Time to cut and run. Get them to remove the system, refund your money, and find a more competent company to install a new system.

Thanks, sktn. I've been getting similar advice from my neighbors on nextdoor.com.

I would be very surprised if the system is removed and you get a full refund. Read your contract carefully to see if there any loop holes on the refund. You may have to send a certified letter or do something that will make it difficult to invoke the refund clause. Don't wait to do this. You have less than 30 days.

In the mean time start getting quotes for a new system. Hopefully you can arrange the new installation the day after the current one is removed.

Good luck.

Good advice, Mike. I plan to do what you suggested.

I checked the proposal. Here's what it says: ONE YEAR TEST DRIVE WARRANTY. If you are unhappy with your systems heating or cooling and we can't fix it, we will remove the system and refund 100% of your original investment at any time during the first year.

The key phrase is "and we can't fix it". They will claim they can fix any problem, but you have to give them an opportunity.

They've had opportunity after opportunity. It's a lemon system.

Deb, If you attempt to get a refund and you actually get one. Report back and let us know.

Be sure to include how much pressure you had to apply to reach the goal.

I will, Austin. I have to say that when I got a VM back from the owner, he said right up front that he would honor the warranty and give me a full refund, if that's what I wanted. He also said he would be glad to meet with me, and even offered to come into the office over the weekend. I left a VM for him yesterday to say we could meet next week and gave him some times. This company has an excellent reputation. I talked to a sales guy from another supplier, and he thinks highly of the owner of the company I'm dealing with. He added, though, that the company has been growing extremely fast and that he has seen problems with Bryant equipment, which is what I now have.

I just got an email from the owner. Here's what he had to say. Please let me know what you think:

I got your return call just a little bit ago and was actually half way through typing this out before I got pulled away so I will just finish it and yes I could get together sometime Monday morning, just let me know what works for you. I have one meeting that is easily moved.

I saw on the webform completion that you are sending a letter and I will be on the look out for that but wanted to start the discussion sooner than later.

You do have the option to execute the 1 year test drive offer that we promise. In that you have a few options;

Option #1

You would find a new contractor that would sell you and install a new system, then we would coordinate with that contractor so that we would remove all of our equipment neatly and in conjuction with your new contractor that you selected. At that time we would refund you the full amount of the original investment of $11,754.58.

Option #2

Remove the humidifer and refund you $750 (this is the price for stand alone installation, we usually only charge $500 to add it to an insatallation) and you can have someone else install a new one.

Option #3

Allow us to come in and find out what is now wrong with the humidifier and fix it for free or replace it if necessary.

As far as I know the humidifier has been the main culprit after looking at the service history aside from the original list of issues you spelled out that included scheduling, communication, holes in pipes, doorbell, etc. back in January that we seemed to acknowledge and address. We had an issue one time where the fuse holder was not making good contact so had nothing to do with the overall system and then the AC was running when the humidifer came on due to a miswiring of the humidifer, so again not an issue with the main system.

On a side note, that humidifier was a new model that we just started selling and installing at the time and had a different wiring set up on it. Installers were not trained up on it at the time and most of them are creatures of habit so they left it for someone of advanced skillset to do it at teh QA. Then Jesse (my son) came out on the quality assurance and didnt get it right for some reason and so you ended up having a very bad experience with it all. Since then we have put in hudreds of the same humidifer and have had no real issues with them.

Obviously Option #1 is the most painful option for me, and could be the most stressful, time consuming and may be the most risky for you, depending on your choice and luck with a new contractor that may or may not handle problems such as this like we have and may open up a whole new list of issues.

I fully understand and respect the feelings your experiencing with all of this and will honor your decision which ever way you choose to go. This gives you something to ponder till we get together in person.

Look forward to hearing from you and settling this the best way possible for you.

Well at least you got a well written response offering the refund. He is down playing the issues of the poor installation.

Can you post the model numbers of the equipment you have? I am curious to see what you received for $11,745.58. It does not appear to be low end equipment with a budget installation.

Humidifier equipment does not change much so I am not buying their inexperience with a new model. I am also suspicious of the fuse story.

Maybe you should get some quotes and how the new company take a look at your installation without telling them the story. They may spot more installation problems which could become issues after the one year warranty expires.

Thanks for your frank opinion, Mike. Here's a list of the equipment.

Bryant 126BNA030000. Preferred Series. Single-stage air conditioner.

Bryant CNPVP3617ALA evaporator coil.

Bryant 926TA42060V17. Preferred Series. Two-stage gas furnace.

Honeywell Lyric T6 Pro Wi-Fi thermostat. This is what they were supposed to install. Instead they installed a Honeywell T6 Pro programmable thermostat. I told them to leave the T6 Pro in place and just refund me the difference. They sent me a check for $50.

Honeywell Truease Humidifer

Global Plasma Solutions - iClean

Whole Home Duct Cleaning

Price includes placing the furnace on a rise and installing a 5" skuttle media filter for improved airflow, filtration and quieter overall operation.

Add return air to wall adjacent to furnace in basement, add return air to west wall of mechanical room in basement, add supply air to west wall of mechaincal room over door.

Seal gap around existing 80% flue in attic.

Then there are miscellaneous expenses, such as a new AC/heat pump pad, permit fees, equipment haul-away, etc.

After discussing the matter with you folks on here on the forum and my neighbors on nextdoor.com, I think I've been letting my admiration for the company blind me to the fact that the equipment just plain doesn't work.

I wish you could see this company in action. The sales guy, for example, had impressive software at his fingertips that simply blew away the competition. He knew exactly what all the rebates were, and the company filed the rebate applications for me. Their techs not only are incredibly responsive, but have delightful personalities, to boot. I studied the proposals of three companies carefully before buying. Fort Collins heating & air offered the most bang for the buck. The techs always put on their booties before coming into the home. Clearly, a lot of money has gone into training and supporting these people. They're probably the largest and most successful company in town, but they don't seem to have the arrogance that often goes along with that. I just wish that I had gotten a system that worked dependably. I figure the problem is either a bad install or bad equipment. What's your take?

The owner sounds genuine to me. I would insist that he send his best guys over to do a top to bottom review of the system and if everything appears to be working I would settle for an additional year of the "tear it out" warranty. With the understanding that if something fails again - out it goes. Alternatively, or in addition, I would bring in another contractor, tell him the history and have him do a top to bottom review. Good luck

Thanks. It's an option that I've considered. If there was a single problem after the one-year point, I could tear out the system in a heartbeat. Perhaps I could have his best people do a top-to-bottom review and ask him to pay the cost of having another contractor do one, as well. Then extend the one-year "tear it out" warranty. I do believe the owner is genuine.

And have him replace the humidifier.

It sounds to me like a whiz bang sales presentation, but as of right now sounds the like the owner is a stand up guy if he actually follows thru and does what he says for whatever you decide to do.

For me personally, any system I sell, any brand (I've installed 8 different brands over the 10 years I've been on my own.) The problems I have had are few and those problems never became much of anything, except resolved and in short order. I can list the minor problems I've had on one hand.

In order to offer a rip it out warranty and refund money in my mind says they are less confident in knowing what they are doing. It's good that they are doing what they are saying they will do, but that's a whole lot of aggravation for something you paid well for.

Most companies that I've heard of that offer these kinds of warranties, use them as a sham to sell whatever they can and then stall, make excuses to avoid doing much of anything.

Keep us posted.

Thanks for your input. I pulled a report of my natural gas usage for the past year and haven't been blown away by the savings. As for giving the company another chance in exchange for another year of tear-it-out warranty, my concern is this: If there's a problem with the system in, say, July, and I need to replace it then, I'll be buying during peak air-conditioning period, so I'll pay more for the system. Right now in March, companies are offering discounts and rebates.

What do you folks think of Amana equipment? The replacement company I'm considering specializes in that brand.

Amana was bought by Goodman and then Goodman was bought by Daikan in 2012. Daikan is a Japanese multinational corporation and it's products are sold in 140 countries. In 2016, Amana opened a new $400 million manufacturing, engineering, logistics, etc. facility in Houston, Tx.

Consumer Reports lists the Amana central air conditioners as having similar reliability to the other major manufacturers: Trane, Carrier and Lennox. Amana has an extended labor warranty called "Asure" that is backed by the corporation and is not run by a 3rd party. You can purchase the extended parts and labor warranty which can run for 5 years or 10 years and you can transfer the extended warranty to the new owner of your home if you sell your home. Some of their models offer a limited lifetime warranty on the compressor, but those warranties are only valid for the original owner and don't transfer to the new home owner when the house is sold. Amana has some 2018 Energy Star models that can achieve up to 23 SEER, 14 EER.

Thanks much, Bob!

Amana HVAC warranties are a bit better than that as they are life time replacement warranties. This means you get a new unit as opposed to one that just merely gets repaired. However, the warranty is a conditional warranty in which your unit will be replaced. (If compressor fails, ever. For as long as you own the home, Amana will provide a new replacement unit.)

Repairs out side of that condition are done normally.

In order to qualify for the replacement warranty the AC system must be a 16 SEER or higher and must include a new indoor coil with condenser.

Amana furnaces have same life time replacement warranty with the condition if heat exchanger cracks, they will provide you a new furnace.

The difference in warranties from Amana to Goodman are that Goodman warranty is a repair type warranty, instead of replacement. Amana and Daikin brands are the two premium brands that Goodman manufacturing makes, Daikin is the parent company.

I've installed 100's of various equipment pieces and several full systems over the years and warranty related issues have maintained a tight range of 2-3% well below what is considered average in HVAC industry at 25% failure rate. The failure rate I mention above means the part failed with in the warranty period of the part. I have never seen a compressor failure to this date with one of these machines with such a warranty.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

The Bryant equipment you have is fine. Carrier is a sister brand and makes the same equipment under their brand name. If you really like the Amana dealer then you should be able to find equivalent equipment.

You don't have to spend money on an electronic air cleaner. A properly sized 4 inch media filter would be fine. Hopefully you were not charged a lot of money for the duct cleaning. It is unnecessary unless you have neglected your HVAC equipment by running it without a filter for long periods of time.

Do you really need a humidifier? They can become a maintenance nuisance. Low humidity is caused by outside air infiltration. That means better windows but that tends to be expensive. If the humidity was acceptable during the months the humidifier was not working then you probably can get by without one.

You were charged the high range for the equipment you received. Hopefully you will get a better price on your new quotes.

Thank you so much for your information about warranties and dependability, Austin Air. And thanks to you, Mike, for your insights on equipment brands, air cleaners and pricing. I'm meeting with the owner this morning and with another supplier this afternoon. I'll let you know the outcome.

OK, folks, I met with the owner of Fort Collins Heating & Air this morning. He seems to live up to his reputation of being a stand-up guy. I told him that I was going to talk with him this morning, then with a competitor this afternoon, then get back to both of them tomorrow morning with a decision. So I would massively appreciate your thoughts on which course of action to take.

I told the FCHA owner that if I decide to keep my existing system, this is what I would want them to do:

Have their best team replace the humidifier and go over the system from top to bottom. Replace the thermostat, too, if they can't make the low-battery symbol go away, given that I just replaced the batteries last week.

Extend the first-year tear-it-out warranty to March 30, 2019.

No charge for repair calls from now to March 30, 2019.

Free furnace inspections in Sept. 2018 and Feb. 2019.

If I want the system torn out with a full refund at any time between now and March 30, 2019, FCHA tears out the system, no questions asked.

The FCHA owner said he's pretty sure he could agree to all of those conditions.

I then met with a sales guy from another HVAC company that also has a solid reputation. Here's his proposal:

96% up to 97% 2-stage heating, variable speed motor. 16 SEER
A/C system. 1-stage cooling. : Installation to include: Finish the mastic
sealing in the mechanical room per code. All necessary PVC venting needed. All
220v, 110v, and 24v electrical needed. Condensing unit outside. Evaporative
coil inside. TXV (thermal expansion valve). Refrigerant lines from inside out.

All installed.

Task HCS-PH60. Premier Amana Two-Stage variable speed gas
furnace. 96% AFUE. Stainless steel
tubular primary heat exchanger.
Efficient and quiet variable speed circulator motor. 10 year parts and labor warranty. Limited lifetime “unit replacement” warranty
on heat exchanger. *Annual maintenance required. Price: $6,682

Task D-F750 $750 off high efficiency furnace

Task HCS-DC30. Deluxe
Amana high-efficiency air conditioner.
Up to 16 SEER. High-efficiency
scroll compressor. Single-speed
condenser fan motor. Limited lifetime “unit
replacement” warranty on compressor. 10
year parts and labor warranty. Lifetime
limited “unit replacement” warranty on heat exchanger. *Annual maintenance
required. Price: $6,024

Task D-AC750. $750 off high-efficiency A/C

Task HO3. Bypass evaporative humidification. Can be installed on supply or return. Works only while heat is cycling. Not recommended for home over 2500 SF (My
home is about 3,800 SF, including partially finished basement). Price: $895

Task D-HSHUM. Free
humidifier with purchase of high efficiency furnace or AC system.

Task ACO4. (Air cleaner, I assume). Honeywell 4” disposable
air filter. Merv 8 filter rating. Uses no electricity, but requires replacement
media quarterly. Price: $895, but free
with purchase of high efficiency furnace or A/C system. 5 year parts and labor
warranty.

Task TS-EC4. (thermostat/humidistat,
I assume). Comes with built-in Alexa
Voice Service, so you can ask your ecobee to set a timer, read you the news,
etc. 5 year parts and labor warranty. Price $0.00

Task ACO7. Return air
box (square – 14, 17, 21, 24) includes easy 1” filter access. Improves air flow efficiency by up to
25%. Price: $0.00

Task SD-100. Senior
discount. $300.

Cash or Check discount.
$100.

If I have it installed 3/8/18 (may not be feasible): $350
discount.

Total: $10,566

All of this partly depends on the current supplier leaving
all water supply lines and electrical.
Otherwise, it may cost me about $500 more, according to the sales guy.

Given your HVAC knowledge, what would you do if you were in my position?

Deb, sometimes I read the HVAC Talk AOP forum where HVAC contractors discuss various equipment questions from the general public. They won't discuss pricing information on bids so you wouldn't want to include it in a post, but they will give advice about the equipment included in the contractor bids. That might be another helpful resource for you since you are trying to make a decision within the next day or two.

Thanks, Bob! I'll give it a try.

Is the Amana sales guy going to provide the model numbers of the equipment he is quoting? The quote is not valid without the model numbers in my opinion. He should provide an AHRI directory number for the system configuration.

The 10 year labor warranty is a nice feature, but not if it means if you have to pay for annual maintenance. Get a written quote of how much is the maintenance, how many times a year, maintenance locked into a price for the next 10 years.

I don't care for the free humidifier offer (nothing is for free), sign up now and get these discounts pitch, and other sales pressure tactics.

The terms you gave to Fort Heating Heating and Air seem fair. It seems you have no risk for another year. I would be inclined to take that deal if you believe they have the skills to fix the current problems.

Thanks, Mike. I sent the new sales guy an email this morning to ask for model numbers. I'll ask if the bid includes the cost of an annual tune-up. I don't think it does, but FCHA doesn't include the cost of an annual tune-up in its bid, either. Maybe that's just the way HVAC companies roll here.

FCHA and the new company both throw in "free" equipment into their bids. Perhaps it's just a sales tactic in Colorado.

I also asked the new sales guy about costs for annual tune-ups, if they're not included. Also about the costs of filters and frequency of changing them. As well as whether the proposed air cleaner for 2500 SF with work in a 3500 SF house.

It's expensive to maintain my FCHA system. They charge $79 for a tune-up, and strongly recommend that I get them twice a year. The air cleaner filters cost $30 apiece (if I buy 3 at a time) and are only available from an HVAC dealer. Humidifier filter is $38.

I understand that I would have no financial risk for a year from FCHA. But I've also reached the point where I'm just plain shell-shocked from dealing with them, and I can't bear the thought of even the possibility of them screwing up again.

Another concern about FCHA is that it's growing so fast that wires get crossed and things don't get communicated. A friend of mine stopped dealing with the company for that reason.

Will let you know when I hear back from the new sales guy. He has been with his company for 17 years. It has 18 people. It also has a stellar reputation.