It doesn't take a crystal ball, just some forethought. If I pick out something and all you have to do is order it, how much does it cost? What sites can you use your discount (yes, build.com will consider a designer a building professional)? How much will it cost if I ask you to pick something for my approval? How much does it cost each time you make a site visit? If a designer is prickly about answering those questions, she's not the designer you want. Understand that just like lawyers, designers sell their time and their smarts and they have costs and overhead, too.

And about Sophie, don't dismiss everything she says out of hand, because she brings up some really good points, too. Unfortunately, you have to get through her "cheap chinese crapola" attitude to get there. I would say that she's used to working with people who understand and accept they way she charges and are happy to pay for her services, but she doesn't do budget work.

BTW, hiring a contractor who doesn't speak English is not smart, either.

Any "one-off" request not covered by the scope of work in your initial contract is above and beyond. They won't be "accommodated" unless you pay for them via a change order. Junior or not, her terms are her terms.

I've seen lawsuits about these kind of contracts and always wonder why anyone would sign off on it. You could keep the current designer for aspects of your design and hire a second designer without a contract who will work for an hourly rate. I have an awesome, experienced, talented designer who will pass me all her discounts and access. I specify and she places the orders; she does use my credit card usually, but sometimes she needs a check. She basically pays for herself and is a pleasure to work with.

@suzyq53, I don't know a single designer who works without a contract. Not one. I think you and the OP would be better off with a buying service, not a designer.

Sabrina - Maybe mine is a unicorn? She is the best! Also lends me her handyman for $200 a day and translates for me since I don't speak Mandarin.

Your original posting said you hired a designer to do a small project(kitchen remodel).....then you said 'the job is huge'....Interesting!

You agreed to pay the markup in the contract and now you want to renig on the contract. The designer isn't the source of the issue here.

The first requirement of dealing with any type of customer is to be able to communicate. I did not say you should fire him. Nor am I xenophobic, I just want to be able to understand and be understood by anyone I work with.

And just because a designer is "junior" doesn't make her skill, talent and expenses any less. Giving someone a chance to put something into their portfolio is not an accepted form a remuneration. "Can I get your band to play at my party for free? Just think of the exposure you'll get!" That's just insulting and if you've communicated that to your designer she's right to charge you whatever is spelled out in the contract!

"so I’d think she would need the portfolio help (should the project turn out as planned)." That sounds like you brought up the subject. You didn't say "she wanted the portfolio help."

I've had people ask me to work for free or at a greatly reduced rate so I could get "exposure." That's what's ugly.

@city, you asked for input on designer billing practices. We gave you lots of reality checks. Seems to me you weren’t really asking for advice but rather wanted confirmation of your actions. Just like your design project. Not hearing what you want to hear isn’t the same as not giving sound input, IMO. Best of luck to you.

You are so right. Things are changing fast. Some old time practices will have to go or be irrelevant. Also, the flat mark-up encourages designers to recommend the priciest finishes for everything. My designer knows where to put the money and saves me money as appropriate and it looks like a million bucks.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Her contract said a 25% mark-up on anything she purchases.

My perspective is less specific to hiring a designer, but more philosophical based on experience as someone in what could be loosely defined as a service industry.

Based on the wording in your original post, to me it sounds like your designer was acting in a very above-board manner by reminding you that if she does the ordering you will incur a 25% mark-up. I don't know how steep her professional discount would be, but if its over 25% that is amazing. So seeing things from her perspective, she might feel that she did you a favour by not clicking that order and triggering that mark-up. She could have just clicked the order and legally taken her share, as per your contract.

If she is a junior designer, does she work for a firm? If she's not self-employed she might have no control over charges that are automatically applied and she might not have the power to wave charges or act very autonomously. What she does have control over is not making the moves that will trigger those charges. If she is self-employed and she's just starting out she is very wise to set her boundaries now to avoid being taken advantage of in future.

And just to add, what would happen if the item she ordered on your behalf arrived broken or defective? Who would be responsible for returns and replacement? She would. That’s what the mark-up is for.

25% of a $5,000 sofa is $1250. Wow! That makes it a $6,250 sofa. Really?

At Suzy, yes, really.

Sabrina - Get it while you can. The times they are a-changing. Might work for a while, especially on commercial projects. But sometime and soon, it will all be different.

When you contribute to an industry’s race to the bottom, you will be left with nothing but hacks and the equivalent of “fast food” design. Everything will be cookie-cutter sameness and predictability. McDonald’s does well around the world because they do one thing predictably no matter the location. The quality is sub-par, but at least people know what they’re getting. Not the clients I want.

I didn't read the whole thread, but if you found a fixture you like, why didn't you just buy it yourself right then? Am I missing something? How much do you think a trade discount is? For things like fixtures, electrical, appliances, I found I could get better prices than the "trade discount" if I shopped carefully, and also phoned the website number and ask if they had any further discounts. You’ve already found the fixture, and build.com has quite low prices to begin with. Just buy it.

An interior designer's purchase power comes in more on furniture and the specialty installations of things like millwork and counters, where their connections with tradespeople come in. But on things readily available to everyone, like lighting, faucets, sinks, appliances, just purchase them yourself.

" “I've had people ask me to work for free or at a greatly reduced rate so I could get "exposure." That's what's ugly.” Is it that ugly when you’re starting out? Instagram influencers that market products have built multi million dollar businesses. "

Who cares if she is just starting out, does she not deserve to be valued for her time? Does she not deserve to have her clients hold up their end of their contracts? Every 10 minutes she spends on your project is 10 minutes she can't spend doing something else. If you don't like how she values her time, don't hire her. It is extremely offensive to suggest that she should be sooo grateful to you for your business that she should be willing to devalue herself. Hopefully that attitude will be part of what changes in the near future.

Even assuming that as a society we should be OK with business models that rely on unpaid time and labour like Instagram, Pinterest, YouTube, etc your small kitchen redesign is unlikely to launch her into a multi million dollar business. And maybe she has too much integrity or pride to take credit for things that she just bought at a client's command. Or maybe she doesn't particularly like your style so the things you put together would never end up in her portfolio in any case.

Just try to see things from her perspective. It's great to hear that you went from "... already want to part ways... " 5 hours ago to "... still working with her and all is okay" I hope you guys can succeed in showing mutual respect.

This issue does feel really personal to me because I have had a customer tell me that I shouldn't be fairly compensated for my labour (farming) because it's a lifestyle choice, so I should happily do it for nothing. (that's not a presumption; those were her words). Yes, knowing that a customer has so little respect for the effort you've put into a product or service is horrifying.

"That’s my point- total rigid inflexibility is not a good quality in any business partner."

She's not your business partner.

And again, from my perspective rigid inflexibility would have looked like her placing that order, legally taking the $50, and giving an "oh well" shrug when you fumed.

Instead she acted with integrity to give you fair warning that your contract does indeed apply. That isn't a list of niceties you signed; it is a legally binding document.

A designer friend of mine owns an import furniture company and has a business that makes custom furniture and also has a huge consignment warehouse. She is wildly successful at everything she does. Now she's creating an online business to sell custom currated rooms. So maybe the future won't be all McDonalds.

Yes.....citybythebay.....it can be tough on Houzz. You have to be brave to post a dilemma and I'd love to post, but I'm not that brave.

@suzy the operative word there is imported. Which can mean—but not always—cheap and low quality. I prefer to use US manufacturers to give our own citizens jobs. Local craftspeople who do excellent work as well as keeping the big furniture companies in No. Carolina and elsewhere in business. Again, there’s money to be made in imports, but just like the throw-away clothing industry, the products won’t last long.

The import company is mostly one of kind antique asian pieces and architectural salvage doors and trim from all over the world. She and her daughter just got back from Bali with pictures of some amazing finds. And trust me its not cheap. She calls it recycling.

Lindsey = the voice of reason

For a minor discount that would end up costing you $50 over list after she applied her markup, you want to lambast the designer and declare that the relationship is over. Over $50?

Standard contract verbiage always includes the right to take pictures and include it in a portfolio. Doesn’t mean that the project will have that happen though. Some projects just aren’t portfolio worthy. And some clients don’t want their homes shown, even if they aren’t identified. It certainly is no reason to ever give a discount to a client. Ever.

Seven hours ago you felt like this:

" I am kicking myself for not thoroughly understanding her billing in her contract and *already want to part ways* "

So that is the information we are going on as we comment.

I'm glad you and your designer have come to a place of understanding. I hope the rest of your remodel goes smoothly.

"No heavy lift on her part"

Was it heavy lifting when Monet painted his gardens ?! Is it heavy lift when a doctor listens to your heart? Does he get you discounts on your blood thinner?

If you hired a newbie to get discounts you should have wriiten a contract as such. If you hired and signed a contract read the terms.

Honestly. ....

If the "heavy lift " of 15 % is no heavy lift? Pay the price for what you selected with no input from the designer. Plan she fires you :)

Im sure it won't be heavy lift for her if she sees this thread lol

You need not hire anyone whose talent, expertise, . taste, experience , skill.... you deem not worthy of fee or contract.

Guess what? We feel the same about clients. We don't tell you that you earn too much, or aren't "worth it" and in the case we seek YOUR advice in your particular trade?

We pay ! And promptly.

Wherever this concept developed that we are all here to accommodate your every " just " order this for me if you agree and extend your pricing" ....

it is ..........:.:

Furniture has between a 500 and 1,000 percent mark-up and if a designer buys it, she can get a good discount on it (to the trade) and the manufacturer can still make money. It's not that way with sinks. The margin on plumbing fixtures on build.com is much smaller and the professional discount on build.com is something like 10%.

What everyone is saying here is you should have read and understood he contract before you signed it. Whether or not everyone agrees with your complaint isn't the issue, the issue is you don't like what yous signed up for.

If you worked hard to graduate from design school and finally had that degree, got a job or started your own shop, would you want to work for free? Times maybe a 'changing but food still costs money and the landlord does't let you use the apartment for free. Yes, it's an insult, just like Carolina said. It shows a stunning lack of respect for another's work. And you get what you pay for.

'No reasonable service industry individual would suggest that clicking on a link In this case (again I didn’t ask for her design advice) and simply extending the 10% discount is taking advantage or a stunning lack of respect or getting something for free"

For myself at least, the impression of disrespect comes from the times where you belittle the value of "just clicking a link" or "only 10 minutes of her time" or "a junior designer who should be happy to be able to add to her portfolio" or "'simply' extending her discount" . I can only go by your words. And I haven't seen anything that displays that you acknowledge the fact that she has the right to that discount because of the hard work she has put in getting trained and certified.

That doesn't mean you don't recognize it, just that I can't see that in anything you've said. So I guess I and maybe some other posters are bashing our heads in trying to help you see that what you see as just little things are actually quite important.

It's *her* discount based on *her* hard earned certification to be used for *her* purchases. If she chooses to extend it to someone else without compensation, nice for them. If she doesn't so choose, she was upfront about that from the start.

@citybythebay

What is the point, as it isn't clear. You want limited help or a lot of help? You want years of expertise, or a "newbie"? You want to trade your referrals to her, for her pricing? You do or don't have time to manage the "details" You want a favor " to just click and use my credit card" and 99% of the time this can't be done. She needs her payment, to get her discount. There are sales tax implications, accounting implications. Everyone who never spent a day owning a business, and all it "JUST" entails, is an advisor as to how it "should " be. And it should be easy. .....riiiiiight.

@not a pundit

A "500 % to 1000% mark up? ??? In what New Math? Do tell me where. When you find it please do tell all of us who are struggling to provide you with very fair pricing, figure out shipping, not over charge you relative to where anything and everything may surface on the internet for which you have hours to search for the match, AFTER we have plied our skill in advising that THIS is the lamp, light or whatever you need............and still make a thin dime of profit. And then have us assume all responsibility for any ding, scratch, or who knows what when it is delivered. Which could then take ten to fifteen hours of time to resolve to your satisfaction......leaving said person who ordered ( yes, us) upside down and in a deep, deep hole,, IF we managed to make 150.00 bucks on an 1500.00 cocktail table due to the so called 500 to 1000 times markup over wholesale/ shipping/error factor/delivery/ storage and receiving and inspection until that moment.........as wholesale goods can not go by semi trailer to your home in any state with a sales tax, ( unless shipped by a retailer ) and all shall need a loading dock for delivery of anything over the size of a lamp shade. Shall I continue? I can't I am breathing.

I need more wine. lol A lot more.

She didn't double dip. She saved you $50 and lost that money from her own pocket by doing the ethical thing and not placing that order.

When the double "dip" ( your words) becomes obsolete, expect to pay 350.00 an hour..................for said person to even think of you.

If you think any designer is getting stinking filthy rich, ripping you off, is unfair in a so called double dip? Try one who makes you sign in blood that you will send her NO links, that every and all purchases will go through her at "retail" plus 20% and all will be luxury, to the trade, custom and that's that. Charge for design time? Zero. Expect her to not consider you unless you have an exceedinly generous budget, and expect a hefty retainer to begin being thought about.

Or ? Get a designer who shall charge you not less than 300/400 bucks an hour, pass on all her wholesale pricing, and charge you to even send you a five second text in response to your "see this? whattaya think?" text . Your invoice will read like the Library of Congress. Y "Double dip" will suddenly look great. it will look fantastic in fact. " All for "very little work " on YOUR part, other than to honor the contract you signed.

"But you all don’t agree that there are exceptions to extending a discount"

Oh, I agree that there are exceptions and definitely circumstances for extending a discount. I've been known to give some pretty sweet deals to my regulars. And they've been known to give some pretty sweet tips to me. And I have some regulars who refuse to take the discount because they value what I do too highly. That feels pretty damn good I can tell you.

I just don't think you have the right to expect that exception. Just like I don't have the right to expect the tip.

And you certainly don't have the right to disparage someone with belittling language.

Designers are not waiters standing there at only your table, waiting to take your order for water with lemon. They are trained professionals who are there to advise and create something unique and spectacular. If you want the chef to take your order for a salad, then you are the one who is losing out on the possibilities. And, you’re insulting the chef to boot.

Which is why your previous designer wanted no part of this.

Geez Louise! I have an on-going relationship with my designer. She likes it that way and so I do. I hire her for a limited scope, but she knows I am shopping online and locally. She freely offers up her discount on everything I source and she is getting bigger discounts because of the volume. When she lends me her handyman, I help her keep him busy enough so that he is always available when she needs him. Its a win/win situation. Also a little good will goes a long way and a happy camper is much more likely to refer a friend or business, write a testimonial or reference, post a great review, etc. And she has managed to acquire several homes and raise two sons and put them through graduate school by herself so it seems she has been able to make a profit on her talent.

To wrap it up: A double dip is NOT that. It is a freely explained fee structure applied too fairly, 99.99999 % of the time. It implies both profit to the designer and a pleasing/skillful result for you, at pricing for goods made easier to swallow wherever that can be done, and at PROFIT for the designer. Most designers will bill barely seventy % of all actual hours worked ..........!! Unless they are kidding themselves. Simply generating your invoice takes time!

If you buy a crate of little cherry tomatoes at the grocery, they do not tell you how much to wash them to a shine, how much for the plastic container, how much time it takes to get them off a truck, what the gas cost to get them to the store, how much they pay the stock boy to unload and how much the shrink wrap cost them. And what it costs to toss them if they do not sell.

Why ON EARTH is it expected for a designer to be in the position of justifying each and every cent she shall hope to earn? Buy the "tomatoes" or don't. You can always grow your own. : ) In a single summer you will be back at Whole Foods.

Relationships develop over time and multiple projects. Do we extend favors? Of COURSE! But just as the professional courtesies are extended to us as pros, a result of repeat business, trust and that relationship? We extend to clients at our discretion. It is something earned, and never abused,.....like trust.

So many charming posts! It's like Real Housewives of Houzz in here.

Whenever I hear about the time fees of lawyers, designers and other professionals, I feel so cheated! As a doctor employed by a hospital system, patients call me all the time, email me, drop forms to fill out, and I have to respond within a specific time frame for free. All these designers here who do not understand how a little bit of flexibility would make them so much more likeable, should think how many times they called their doctors at Amy time of day or night for free advice!

I will start that I am very thankful for all the advice I have gotten and learned from this website but....

As a lay person who can't really completely conjure my own design but can recognize it when I see it, I could really be helped by a designer but if I came to this site to find out how it worked or how to hire a designer and I read this thread, I'd do my best on my own.

All of you are right and I agree with both sides, the contract is the contract but what the OP originally posted in consideration that the designer didn't research or source the sink (assuming it was truly a one off thing and she hadn't been calling her repeatedly to buy stuff day in and day out), someone looking from the outside would have thought it wasn't such a stretch for the designer to order the sink for her client.

I work by the hour (that sounds odd) but I rarely ring the bell at 60 minutes and pack up my gear. In fact, sometimes, I even go over 10 or 15 minutes and don't charge extra.

Sometimes, it's just what you do in a service environment.

Jan, I go to furniture market in High Point, NC every April and October. The leather, three-cushion sofa in the showroom that the manufacturer sells for $100 to the Rooms To Go store ends up on the showroom floor with a price of $1,500 (I've seen this with my own eyes). Of course, the high-end furniture that is sold to the trades has a different cost to sell ratio, but in general, the mark-ups are high. I work in furniture marketing and my husband is a contributing editor for Furniture Today and Casual Living, two of the trade publications for the furniture industry. I use this workaday factoid not to piss off interior designers who sell amazing products and put together stunning living spaces. I use it because this cross-section of the furniture industry is indicative of the level that citybythebay is working at: the just-barely-Ethan-Allen level.

I totally respect designers like you and Sophie and the others that I've read while lurking on Houzz. As I have said before, you all deserve every penny you charge because you have the ability, training and eye to see the most beautiful way a room can come together. I am not fit to tie your shoelaces. I don't get invited into the to-the-trades showrooms because they don't need what I do. I can't afford a designer on your level and I'd never attempt to pry your skill and advice out of you and hope to get it for cheap. Until I can afford someone like you guys, I will decorate my own house and make my own mistakes, and live with them if I have to.

If I hire workmen, I pay them when they present a bill. If they mail it to me, I send a check by return mail. The thing get gets my dander up in all of citybythebay's posts is the overwhelming feeling that she's entitled to pick and choose how a contract she signed is executed and dispute charges that are clearly laid out in advance. Then she comes on Houzz and expects to get back up for this kind of behavior. When she doesn't, she starts calling everyone who disputed her all kinds of names and telling them they'll become obsolete. And now she wishes she could charge for the time she's spent telling you/us how horrible we are. She deserves all of the shame that's been heaped upon her.

And in case anyone may doubt, we're getting ready for April 19.

grewa, the two are apples and oranges, comparing doctors with designers. We all have things we don't like about our jobs and none of us get paid what we're worth.

I've gotten "Can you write this for me for free? Everyone will see what a great writer you are and want to hire you." Yeah, and if anyone asks who wrote it for you, you'll give them my name and then brag that you got it done for free. No thanks, doing work for free sets a bad precedent.

Well there is a certain development period when designers have to promote their growth. Very few designers make money in their first year. If you aren't making money by the third year, you might have to consider your options, unless you have resources to pursue your passion.

Most Dramatic Post Award! *****

I just get the feeling that if you'd have gotten the response you wanted, you would have used it to bully your designers. Nobody likes being used like that.

You signed a contract. It had specific terms. You would like the designer to ignore some of those terms to order items for you without the agreed upon surcharge. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If she wanted to change the terms of the contract to her favor, you would likely be complaining. Accept this as a life lesson, albeit an expensive one, and move on.

My goodness, it's been a busy weekend on this thread!