Need Perspective on General Expectations and Advice Please
I'm entering the final weeks of a major addition and remodel. We've worked with a custom remodeler who is highly reviewed by past clients and professional organizations. Generally, I agree and I try to count my blessings. Nonetheless, I'm finding some of the problems and responses we've had pretty confusing. At this point the relationship with our GC and PM seems strained. We don't have other experiences to compare to and lost some faith in our PM early on. I've spent a lot of time reading about and wondering whether we're being unreasonable over the last few months and I'm dreading the punch list walk through.
When issues arise generally the response is along these lines-- stuff like this happens on every job, sometimes we get caught up in our own processes, your job has had a lot of specifics and details, your house is going to be beautiful, most homeowners aren't this involved, we'll make it right, and a typically a repair (on occasion a replacement) is suggested after some time and/or push-back. I'm really in need of perspective and advice.
To be clear my interest is in understanding and ways to improve things. If my expectations are out of line I want to adjust them. I do not have any ill-will or interest in negatively impacting the GC or PM. I just want to understand what's happening and how best to move forward. So many things have gone right or better than expected, but after completion we'll have spent in excess of 100k for contracting overhead and profit, so it's been challenging to understand and accept some things that have not.
We've used an experienced designer that they have worked with for several years extensively , so I don't believe failing to specify at the right times, being unclear, or disorganization on our part are major factors. I am sure there are things we could have done differently too. None of the things on the list below seem unreasonable to me on their own-- its just taken as a whole.
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- A large quantity of original brick we wanted/needed to save was thrown out. We were nearly unable to finish repairs without using new brick. There was never any intention of painting the brick, which was known since the bidding phase. The brick is also a size that is no longer produced. I spent a lot of time digging through debris piles to scrape together enough to just barely finish. There was an apology which seemed genuine and statement about how things happen quickly, etc. This was disappointing, but I don't expect even the best to be able to prevent something like this at all times.
- I was the first person to bring up a joist that was rotten despite work being completed around it repeatedly over preceding months. I originally spotted the white fluffly growth from a distance without even entering the crawlspace. Weeks went by without this being investigated after I brought it up until my husband stepped in and escalated it.
-The subcontractor installing the crawlspace vapor barrier reminded our builder beforehand to remove debris that had been created. This didn't occur and holes and stretching of the reinforced plastic we upgraded to became apparent almost immediately. One section was later repaired at our request, but it wasn't even the one we'd expressed the greatest concern about. Our builder didn't seem to understand why we're concerned about it. Wouldn't most people be upset about broken cinder block under a new barrier that needs to be crossed every time you have to access the furnace after paying for an expensive sealed crawlspace job? This is one of those items where a repair really doesn't feel the same and where there do seem to be real concerns about function and longetivity (at least to me), but to be clear we haven't demanded replacement. We also had to ask for large holes in several areas that let in moisture rich air from outside (e.g., from under porches) be closed.
-For several months we asked in writing and in person about filling gaps around our new windows and patio door. Our patio was powerwashed and our new subfloor, which new hardwood floors installed on top already, has large water stains. Again, I was the one who made the discovery weeks after this occurred. They assured me it is now dry and the floors will be ok. This area was the same location where subfloor and joist had to be replaced shortly before due to active fungus and rot, so part of me is still afraid this could have spurred regrowth. As someone with really difficult to control asthma this one really got me, but to our builder's credit he did respond thoughtfully and promptly.
-A new toilet rough-in in concrete ended up being further from the wall than expected. 14" rough-in toilets and trim were pushed during trim out. It was usually explained as an idiosyncrasy of the house. There were statements about how they'd tried to get more room and it came back to bite them. We were never approached about this change during framing when it was made. Luckily I researched and measured for myself and discovered that even with a 14" rough-in toilet (few of which even exist) there would be at least 2" more space behind the tank than expected . It would have required compromising on features and aesthetics on our part. I had to hold my ground for a couple weeks, but they did fix it and install what we selected months prior. The work required by the plumber and tile sub did not seem to take more than a few hours each, so the impact appeared to be limited mostly to delaying the final plumbing inspection by a few days.
-We didn't have a great experience with the supplier during plumbing rough-in and I ended up ordering a lot of our light fixtures. This was something that was communicated repeatedly in person and via email over several months. I also never approved the final order. Thousands in light fixtures I had supplied were duplicated and delivered. This was after I emailed the GC and PM the final list nearly 2 weeks before delivery. Originally, I was told the restocking fees would probably knock out most of what I'd managed to save. It sounds like this will mostly work out in our favor, but we had to stand our ground and lost some good will. We also had to accept line voltage stair lights with a different color cover plate after providing matching low voltage lights and communicating repeatedly about these and the low voltage element prior to install. Again, in this scenario it only bothers me when looking at how things compounded.
-It sounds like initially our electrician didn't intend to trench under where our driveway was to be poured to run power to outdoor lighting. Our PM said he didn't think it was required, because it's low voltage, but the fixture has always been line voltage and code even called for empty conduit to be buried. I don't believe that if I hadn't pushed back and cited code that it would have ended up being buried.
-There is a section of our driveway that slopes back toward our house with little ground between the foundation and driveway. Our natural grade is in this direction, but the main reason we were given this ultimately occurred was because I stressed that they try not to disturb the trees further after we'd lost 1 (more likely 2) mature trees from what appeared to be extensive/nearly exclusive use of a bobcat during removal of the old driveway and grading. The subcontractor told me he didn't need to go further in towards the trees and it was never clear to me that it meant the driveway would slope back toward the house about 4 inches over a 12' span. This all seemed like it could have been prevented by just cutting the trees shallow roots beforehand and with a little bit less rushing through prep to pour before a large rain. Electrical was being trenched under the driveway and forms being set less than 2 hours before the concrete truck was scheduled to arrive. We communicated extensively that we were deeply concerned we weren't ready. Ultimately, we agreed to regrade and replace one small section of this area and to a buried perforated drain tying into our footer drains for the other. There will be no cost to us, which does speak to our GC wanting to make it right, but I'm hoping we won't regret this in the long run. I really do believe everyone has good intentions and I want to trust.
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We review details proactively and make ourselves available. As things come up we communicate about them to try to avoid small problems becoming ones that are difficult or expensive. We've been able to get a running list implemented, but in our opinion have generally lacked an effective system for this for most of the project. This list was nearly 7 pages long when we were anticipated to be 3 weeks out from inspection for C.O. Many of the items are things we've asked for in person or in writing since the rough-in phase that were put off even after multiple return visits by the relevant trades. The list is predominantly items like outlets that didn't function, items that weren't installed even though we're past final inspection for that trade, etc. Few paint touch ups were included on the list. Some of these items stem from difficult/inability we've had with getting new finishes covered/protected. We've been asking about and sharing concern about this since rust stains appeared on the surfaces of new cast iron tubs shortly after they were installed (due to wet nails being left inside). After scratching first appeared on a new marble counter it continued to be left uncovered. We also have new metallic marks in the tubs. I understand that things happen and they plan to polish, but it feels like complacency may be a factor too.
I'd understand completely if we nickel and dimed and ended up at this point, but we rarely even ask detailed questions about items that ended up costing more than expected. We have never threatened to withhold payment. We've communicated quality as being very important to us, have been willing to pay for it, and are not concerned about delays. What expectations have been reasonable or unreasonable? Is this on par with your experiences? What can we do now to improve the situation? Would it be helpful to see if our designer may be willing to help us get during the punch list process or would this be highly unusual? I don't want to make anything more difficult for anyone involved and hope this can remain another anonymous posting where others help me find the best way to keep moving forward. Thanks for taking the time.
Comments (10)
- Anonymous Poster thanked Mark Bischak, Architect
- 7 years ago
Bottom line, these guys sound sloppy and unresponsive. And no, you are not being unreasonable in your requests for things that should be a matter of course. Something else in your story caught my eye: that in order to escalate, you had to bring in your husband. Hate to say it, but sexism abounds in the construction trades and it sounds to me like your legitimate complaints were dismissed because they came from you, not him. So here's what I would do immediately: schedule an in-person meeting between yourself, the GC, the PM, and your husband. And make it clear that YOU have all decision-making and approval authority for day-to-day operations on the job site and that you will withhold final payment on the job until all your concerns/punchlist items are addressed to your satisfaction. That will get their attention. Lastly, not sure what to say re: the lighting issue. Was it in their contract that they would do the purchasing, not you? If so, that may be where the confusion lies, unless there was a change order to amend the contract.
Anonymous Poster thanked Sabrina Alfin Interiors Related Professionals
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Wow, you have the patience of a saint. I'd request a sit-down with the GC & PM. Print out what you have posted and have them read it...then do not speak. Let them explain / posit remedies. Have them write down what they're going to do and sign, you get the originals. Punch lists are rather a joke, you are excited to be at the end of the build and you won't notice 50% of the minor issues that need correction. I wish you the best, and, in the end, I'm sure you will enjoy your new home.
- 7 years ago
As a woman who has dealt with GC and PM's a lot, you are being female about this. If it pisses you off, let them know it. You aren't there to be liked. You are there to write the check when you are satisfied. No one loves your home or your money like you do. Stand up. Be accountable. While being friendly is usually the easiest course of action, sometimes it's good to make them a little afraid. Nothing on your list is unreasonable. While, you may want to choose your battles, it sounds like you have gotten most things resolved.
While sometimes it's easier to bring in the DH, there is no reason why you can't handle this yourself. Call a meeting of the GC, the PM and yourself. Give the GC a numbered list of what you want repaired or redone. Tell them to get on it.
- 7 years agolast modified: 7 years ago
It is really difficult to comment on another professional's project without hearing both sides. It is in our nature to present things as we see them, (not at all discounting what you have presented). Not knowing what was put in writing at the start of the contract and what was in the designer's scope, the ability of both designer and GC, it's super hard to say anything. There have been a few jobs where we have been hired for just the construction component and we have had to work with a "designer" that is not educated and trained to do construction drawings , doesn't understand the fundamentals of building/architecture and doesn't understand building codes etc. We then have to be the bearer of bad news that the "design" that was promised cannot be done in the manner that the client believes it can be done. ALWAYS an unpleasant conversation for all involved because it always ends up costing the client more money. That causes tension between us and the "designer" because since the license is ours we will not build anything that is not to code. All of those things create a liability nightmare. We rarely (if ever anymore) take on a client where we are not both Design and Build because the design/build model removes the ability for finger pointing because it is all on one entity.
My apology that this may not help you resolve your current issue. Perhaps a cautionary tale to those out there contemplating a remodel.
Anonymous Poster
Original Author7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoThank you all for taking the time to read. As you mentioned, there is always another perspective and I want to be fair to the GC and PM too who have a great many strengths and not to discount what's gone right. We came in with architectural plans and worked with a designer, who they recommended highly, who is very knowledgeable about construction since before starting the build . So, we really haven't really run into issues related to design aspects. I can't even imagine where we'd be without the designer at this point.
I've been assertive throughout and they come to me about decisions. I bring in my husband as a last resort, because sometimes we just need to get things resolved before it's too late. I don't think the issue is being overly friendly. I'm almost certain they've decided I'm difficult and wish I'd go on a vacation, but given the kinds of things I mentioned I'm not sure that it's entirely fair, which at the end of the day doesn't matter.
In regards to the lighting, our contracts states that we can purchase and supply items with the stipulation that they don't warranty those. We have a PM who is green. He works hard and has a lot going for him, but organization is an area for growth, so that's largely what happened with the lights. His system appears to be predominantly trying to remember stuff and sometimes the notepad on his phone or a printed email.
Would you recommend trying to do sort of a pre-punch meeting where we discuss the outstanding things? Would it be helpful to bring the designer with us if she'd be willing to help us catch things? I'm not feeling like they are actively looking like they might have otherwise. I'm not sure how discussing some of the old items would help us unless there are some you think we should maybe revisit for a better resolution?
Thank you.
Anonymous Poster
Original Author7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoThey are a mid- to high-end custom builder who specialize in this type of job, which is part of why we just don't get it. Their bid was in line with one other similar company who I believe was recommended by the architect and the third bid was approximately 100k higher. Currently our PM is one other job in the 1 million dollar range and for a good while worked exclusively on our build. Do you think it would be helpful at this point to demand that they get the counters and tubs covered? They seem to think that it doesn't really matter anymore, but we've still got final coat on the floors, shoe mold, paint touch ups, etc. left.
I went back and reviewed photos of the window installation and read a lot about the topic--things appeared to be proper. The issue with the patio door was that it had to be installed in existing masonry, which I understand is especially challenging. At the end of the day it was lack of follow through on addressing the gaps in a timely manner (since there was no sill pan) even when we kept asking that lead to the water on the subfloor.
- 7 years ago
I would definitely have a meeting and include the designer. I would put the punch list in writing and have a "to be done by" date in your follow up letter to that meeting. Many of the things that you are having issue with should/would have been caught by a more seasoned/organized pro. Kudos to you for having the humanity and grace to give the green PM the benefit of the doubt. Not too many homeowners would be that gracious.
You brought up that the firm had another much larger job that divided their attention from your project. It is unfortunate when a firm takes on more work than it can handle. It really ends up serving no one. We turn down projects far more often than we say yes because at the end of the day your $500,000 needs to be equally important as the 2 million dollar project. If we can't commit to giving it our full attention we need (and do) say no. Currently there is tons of work out there and it breeds an environment of two things. You get a lot of new companies with little experience entering the market and you have a lot customers wanting to remodel right now. Because this industry, for those companies that are small or have small client bases, becomes a feast or famine proposition, they will begin to take on more work than they can handle because they are never sure when the economy is going to shift and then there will be a shortage of work.
So lesson learned, for the readers, see how long a company has been in business and ask if the PM intends to be on your job everyday, how often is she/he going to communicate progress to you. Talk to one or more previous client to get what their experience was with the company. (You may have done all these things and you just got a less than perfect experience). At the end of the day it sounds like you are mostly happy with the result and I hope you will soon have all this behind you. You sound like a real quality person!
Anonymous Poster thanked Design Intervention - 7 years agolast modified: 7 years ago
Yes, you should insist that they should go ahead and cover the items that need protection. I realize they may have been already damaged. There is no reason to damage them further. I can understand how the lighting fixture situation can occur. I had a delay with low voltage lighting because I misunderstood that the electrician considered it to be a fixture. It was my mistake and I learned something from it.
Design Intervention is giving you some good advice. When you have any conversations with the PM, you should follow it up with an email to the GC reviewing the conversation. Copy the PM. Make it their problem. Lists, lists, lists and follow up emails. Lists are your friends.
Anonymous Poster thanked homechef59










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