I've had good results using Safari Systemic Insecticide with Dinotefuran. It's best applied early in the spring as soon as the roses begin to leaf out.

Thank you, Thank you! Christopher & ratdogheads.

Christopher I really appreciate that you brought forth the toxicity to the plant and the environment with using an insecticide specially a systemic one. Nobody talks about that when recommending and explaining its use. Cutting the blooms is such an easy way to stop a lot of the damage that I had never thought of (dumb, dumb). Now I do want to go ahead and stop the S_ _s.

OK please guys recommend for me some products that will work that I can get from Amazon. I found Safari. Its 132 bucks for the smallest package. There are a few dinotefuran products at greater dilution but not for sale in NY. I will get Safari if there is no other option and if I can use it for other insect damage down the line. There are some Imiidacloprid containing products. Does this work?

If you use granules in the soil, easiest, does it stay in the soil a very long time?

Are there granules without fertilizer available?

And how long is it till starts taking effect?

So appreciated Thank you!

I think it's Vaporvac that uses a landscape fabric barrier method; quite labor intensive, rather long-term, and doesn't work so well if you've got companion plantings.

They put landscape fabric over the soil around the roses, up to a few inches from the canes. You have to leave it all year, but it keeps the larvae from getting into the soil and pupating. I don't know how long they had to do it to really knock down midge populations.

AquaEyes 7a NJ If you use a spray, you'll want to hit both sides of the leaves, and make sure to start at the bottom and work your way up.

Why?

Systemics are meant to be absorbed by the plant, then travel via xylem, which flows upward, which means starting below the area you want to be "medicated." If using a systemic spray, hitting the underside of the leaves means getting the spray in the stomata -- the open pores -- which increases absorption rate. There may still be some absorption from the upper surface, but I don't think it's as much as if you hit the stomata. In contrast, if you're using some kind of contact spray -- such as fungicides like Daconil, which form a barrier preventing fungal infection rather than a systemic cure -- it's more about coating the surfaces of the plant (leaves, stems) that are prone to infection (more the upper surfaces, since spores land on them more than get blown upwards) than getting the plant to absorb it.

:-)

~Christopher

I am a devotee of landscape fabric but it wont work here. Shane. Thanks ac91z6.

You are such a good teacher Christopher, explicit and complete. I get it!. But maybe, if you dont mind, please, would you suggest one or more pdts I could get? I would like a spray but granules will work too. :)

Thanks!

I don't remember the specific insecticides recommended for midge off the top of my head, but I do remember that when I wanted to learn which worked, simply googling "rose midge control" pulled up a lot of references. But keep in mind that next year will be the last year that quite a few insecticides will be available for purchase, following an EPA cancellation of their registrations. See the linked pdf below, and note that Imidacloprid -- something regularly touted for midge control -- is among them. So if you're planning to go hardcore short-term and gentle long-term, you'll want to get the products containing that ASAP before they're no longer available. I'm not sure what will be used to replace it.....maybe pyrethrins? I'm only just scratching the surface regarding learning about pesticides because they're unfortunately a necessary tool at my job in a public garden. In my own garden, I just let things happen to see how far they went, then did what I could without the toxic stuff. But my expectations in my own garden are very different.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2019-05-20/pdf/2019-10447.pdf

:-)

~Christopher

I think thats really good news. Thanks for the heads up.

You're welcome. Apparently there are some other insecticides that can work for midge that aren't on the to-be-discontinued list -- and I remembered correctly that they're pyrethrins and pyrethroids, which are substances derived from a type of daisy and their synthetic counterparts, respectively. What I was doing when I was looking this up was googling the active ingredient in any of the insecticides recommended in the articles I found, and two online sellers kept coming up among the results -- see below.

https://www.domyown.com/

https://store.doyourownpestcontrol.com/

So find the articles about rose midge control, make a list of the products recommended, google them individually to inform yourself of their pros and cons (including risks), and make your choices. Check to see if any are on that pdf list I posted above, and remember that next year will be the last year those products will be on the shelves. Then be sure to find some that are NOT on that list, and check them out at the sellers above by searching for active ingredient. It'll take some work, but in the process, you'll become better informed -- like I did.

:-)

~Christopher

working on it

Oh, and remember something, if you want to come to a "minimizing harm but still using some insecticide" protocol -- if you can bear it, an effective treatment would involve carefully spraying something systemic once a week for a month starting now, hitting just the roses, and removing any blooms and buds during that period. Rose midge infests not just buds but any growing shoot, so even without blooms forming, the adults will still be laying eggs, and you'll have growing material in which larvae will form. You actually want this, since that's how the insecticide will kill them, and prevent them from growing into the next generation. But by keeping the roses from blooming during this time, you won't be poisoning the pollen, and thus poisoning the pollinators. The only things getting the poison will be things eating the parts of the rose that are NOT blooms, which would include rose midge, as well as rose slugs and other pests. The pollinators and other beneficials should still have plenty of food if you have other plants blooming, and you're careful to NOT hit them with the insecticide. This is why the spray would be less harmful than a drench or granules, which will be absorbed by other plants, and poison everything, including the critters in the soil.

So if you keep this up for a month or so, you'll severely knock down your midge population, and still get to see blooms starting in August. Then next year, be sure to do the same thing as soon as the roses leaf-out, since in our area, midge often emerges just before the first flush. Pause the insecticides during the first flush, do another round of hitting them weekly after it's over and removing blooms for July (which is also something some rose people do to avoid seeing blooms decimated by Japanese beetles, which are in full-force during July, so you'll be hitting two birds with one stone this way), and you'll end up having great periods of bloom with little or no midge damage rather than having continuous bloom with lots of midge damage. Even by pausing during the first flush, you'll have a lot less midge damage (if any) because you knocked down most or all of the first generation to emerge. Unfortunately, it seems this is the concession to make if you don't want to keep things toxic all season.

:-/

~Christopher

Thats an absolutely great idea and protocol. I will do just that. Would you want to spray the ground surface now and in spring?

cant thank you enough for your time care and knowledge.

To minimize poisoning your other plants -- especially those that will be in bloom while you're using the poison -- I'd recommend getting yourself one of those backpack sprayers and using something that's systemic but will be absorbed through the green parts of the plant, and spraying the stems and both sides of the foliage. You'll want to hold the nozzle of the sprayer upside down so that it sprays upward, then hit the plant from the bottom, going up and down, and working around the whole plant, spraying until you see just the start of runoff. Spraying the soil isn't something I'd bother with -- to get it to be effective, you'd have to use a granule or drench, and doing so would mean other plants will absorb it, as well as the soil critters getting hit, which I wouldn't want. Just spraying the soil won't be enough to be absorbed by the roots, but would still possibly kill unintended critters at the surface. If you go with one of the pyrethrins or pyrethroids, the toxicity to humans and pets is low enough that you won't have to worry about wearing a haz-mat suit while spraying, but please research that yourself and make your own choices.

I've come to realize that having a sprayer makes for a great investment -- I got one for the cemetery, and I use it for my own little concoction of potassium bicarbonate (mild fungicide), neem oil (mild fungicide and insecticide, but not effective on midge), Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap (mild fungicide, maybe, and mild insecticide, as well as something the deer don't like the smell of), and a tea made from hot chili pepper flakes (something the deer don't like the taste of). I hit the roses with this once a week, omitting or severely reducing the neem oil if the temperature is going to be too hot. I also know that if I need to use something more hard-core, the choices open up because I can buy more things as concentrates for sprayers than anything ready-to-use. So long as I don't mix any herbicide in it, the sprayer can be used for basically anything that could be applied to the foliage -- deer repellent, "medicine", etc. In my own garden, my experimental organic sprays had to be administered via adjustable hose-end sprayer, and I've found that things coming as a powder tended to clog and not dissolve easily.

And, you're very welcome. I came here to learn a few years back, and I feel it's only fair to repay the forum by returning the favor.

:-)

~Christopher

:)

Midge only attacks new growth until the developing bud reaches the size of a garden pea. From that stage the midge looks elsewhere to lay her eggs. That stem is home free, and needs no further midge protection if it got to that point damage free.

You do not have to drench the soil with a systemic in order to make not only the entire rose a toxic plant from its roots to its tips, but the soil also. The soil is also rendered toxic, killing a multitude of different insects living in it, as well as rendering earthworms poisonous that robins later eat.

Why do all this when only the growing tip needs protection, and then only to the point of it growing until it grows a bud, the size of a green garden pea? You only need to apply a systemic insecticide to the growing tip only.

I find spraying just the growing tips on a 10 day to two week basis, using Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer, until such stems reach the green garden pea size, extremely effective in controlling midge. I spray from the very tip to only 5" down from the tip. That area gets a good spray. The rest of the bush gets no spray. Why spray it if it doesn't need it. My spray season lasts from May until October.

Pay special attention to all growing tips, both laterals and particularly basal breaks. Basal breaks grow so quickly, and remember, the systemic spray only penetrates the tissue it comes in contact with, but does not translocate, move through the rose's circulatory system, into new growth made. The spray only works systemically in the tissue it comes into immediate contact with. That's why respraying every 10 days to 2 weeks is necessary, until the tip has a flower bud as big as a pea.

I believe my method is the least toxic to the environment, and has been proven to me to be the most effective midge control. I have been battling midge for just about 30 years now! This noxious little fly has been a big problem for a long time!

Moses

I bought safari from do my own pest control. Yes expensive but you don't use much. I grow over 200 roses, and one container gets me through a season with leftover. The product seems to be geared for agricultural use - highly concentrated for large scale operations. Anyhow a little goes a long way.

Moses thank you so much for sharing your proven procedure and the explanations. I will follow it.

(I was so upset this morning. I am working so hard to be a diligent, conscientious gardener and every time things seem to be under control something goes awry. You know how it is. I am very aware of stewardship towards the environment and would not throw neurotoxins around cavalierly. I have never used insecticide previously and took counsel from this forum...)

That being said I did realize spraying would be far better than adding to soil for all the reasons you say.....But was not sure if you just sprayed near the tips then the chemical could diffuse all over the plant so you may have to saturate the plant by spraying all over. You clarifying that the chemical is absorbed and stays where applied helps me understand it all.

I bought a generic Imiidacloprid which I think is the same as the Bayer pdt.

I am so glad you are sharing so many years worth of experience here and with me. Could not be more grateful This is such a gracious community of people!

ratdogheads: if I may ask, are you using Safer as a spary? Then at what kind of concentration? Thanks!

I use it as a soil drench. Determining the amount was a bit confusing, there were pages of instructions but I eventually cane up with the formula of 1.5 - 3.0 teaspoons per gallon. I wrote that on the container so I wouldn't have to figure it out again later, and then I made myself a copy of this portion instructions below (do my own pest control has the manufacturers' guides available online, vey handy). This year I used the higher concentration for the first treatment and followed up with the lesser concentration a couple weeks later, so far, so good.

The granules don't dissolve easily, so my method: I put a 5 gallon bucket on a wheeled garden cart so I can wheel it around the garden as I work. I found the granules dissolve better in hot water, so I measure the granules into a pitcher and fill that with hot water. Then I dump that into the bucket and fill the rest of the way with a hose. I use about a pint per rose, more for very large shrubs. Most of my roses are fairly small due to our harsh winters.

Field Grown (In-Ground) Shrubs

3-6grams (1.25 - 2.5 level teaspoons) per foot of height

Soil Drench: Mix required dose in water and uniformly apply to soil around base of shrub or tree. Pull back mulch before drench- ing. Apply 1 - 4 pints of drench solution per foot of height (shrubs) or inch of trunk diameter (trees). Adjust drench volume based on soil type, soil moisture and thickness of mulch so that product is moved into root zone. To enhance soil penetration in heavy soils and sloping terrain, dig shallow holes around tree or shrub, and apply drench solution in holes. Lower drench volumes may be less effective in dry soils or when applied over heavy mulch unless there is adequate rainfall or irrigation after application to move product into root zone.

I agree with your initial assessment, that weather damage can look similar to midge damage. Botrytis and other insects damage buds, as well.

These links have photos of the larvae to help with identification:

Rose Midge Larvae photo

Rose Midge larvae photo

Rose midge photos

ratdogheads thank you for the write up. It will be very helpful if I am considering SAFER.

Krysta: Thank you for the pics. I am going to go out with magnifying glasses to take a look. But most of the tips are crisp and dark which makes me think this life cycle is mostly over. I think it is not hot sun damage because among other things, if it was the sun then most of the damaged tips would be on the outer surface of the bush. But no, they appear randomly, even on inner and lower tips.

I have no idea if this works, but here are some ideas.

https://www.planetnatural.com/forums/topic/rose-midge-control/

I might try the kaolin clay option.

I am still trying to plan this out.

Christopher and Moses: Let me get this right. I have to spray the tips about every 10 days the whole season and cut off the flowers? Or spray the tips every 10 days or so but if the tip bears a bud then I dont have to spray past when the bud is the size of a pea and then I can let that bud bloom?

And Moses: You have been doing this for thirty years and there has been no significant decrease in the midge population in your garden? Thats scary. Where is your garden? Is there a way to really reduce there numbers in ones garden?

I may not have been watching so closely but I dont think I saw rose midge before. They certainly are there now!

Thank you everyone>

In case you missed it, I liked your last comment.

I agree with ratdoghead. I used this Safari product and it took care of my midge problem 4 years ago. I had really bad infestation but this stuff really worked. Unfortunately, this product is not permitted for use in NY. I think Moses method is excellent.

Karen: Its heartening to hear that you were able to bring rose midge under control after applying it for one season and you are OK four years later. So it can be done. I dont think in my case the infestation is huge but it is quite noticeable. Did you also use it as a root drench or as a spray? Did you cut off flowers too? Thanks!

It came in the form of granules which you apply 1/2 cup to 1 cup depending on the size of your rose bushes. For me, some I applied only 1/4 cup because they were 1 year or less old roses. You don't need to cut the flowers off for midge reason but it maybe a good idea to cut the flowers so the bees don't accidentally get exposed to systemic insecticide. 5 years ago, they offered Safari in granules form in a 7lb container that cost about $30. I don't know why they stop offering the product. It is very effective against midges.

katyajini

I am still trying to plan this out.

And Moses: You have been doing this for thirty years and there has been no significant decrease in the midge population in your garden? Thats scary. Where is your garden? Is there a way to really reduce there numbers in ones garden.

katyajini: Did you ever get an answer to your question(above)?

If Moses’ method kills all the larvae, then where do the pupae (which develop into adults, which lay the eggs that give rise to the next generation of larvae, which destroy the buds and new shoots before pupating) come from? In Moses’ garden.

Even if Moses missed spraying a few buds, the population should be reduced to zero within one growing season. Does Moses believe they are traveling from a site just outside his garden?

I was was also hoping for a Moses/Christopher point/counterpoint discussion in response to:

Christopher and Moses: Let me get this right. I have to spray the tips about every 10 days the whole season and cut off the flowers? Or spray the tips every 10 days or so but if the tip bears a bud then I dont have to spray past when the bud is the size of a pea and then I can let that bud bloom?

Unfortunately, neither responded to your query here.Did you receive a private response from either?

Let me chime in here.

My garden - an acre of roses that used to total about 2800 varieties - used to have a fairly serious problem with Midge. At about the ten year point they pretty much disappeared from the garden, even though I never, ever used an insecticide. (But for the first decade I did spray fungicides) At the 21 year point, I rarely ever see Midge damage. I can't say that I have seen a single damaged shoot this year. Why this problem self-corrected without my intervention I do not know, but I have a feeling it happened because I did not try to intervene.

I did not hear from Christopher or Moses. I reread what they wrote and this is what I understood.

If the tip of a stem has a bud that is the size of a green pea or larger and is not infected then that stem is safe and will not get infected and does not have to be sprayed. If a stem does not have a bud or has a bud that is smaller than a pea then chances are that this stem will get infected and needs to be sprayed. One needs to spray only the upper 5 inches or so.

I was able to procure some of the Safari granules that are to be dissolved in water and sprayed. Right or wrong I completely avoided spraying any bush that was actively blooming. I wore plastic disposable gloves and long dish washing gloves over that. I made only 1 lit of solution at a time and used a small hand held sprayer that is light and I can carry in one hand. I pulled out one stem at a time and sprayed the tips following the directions above. If a stem did have a small bud and I sprayed it, I cut the bud off. Washed the sprayer outside, threw my clothes in the wash and showered right away. I threw away inner and outer gloves.

I sprayed 3 times about 10 days apart. I actually watched if I saw signs of reinfection and only then sprayed. After the third spraying I did not see any more midge.

To me, it worked. I did not spray the surface of the mulch but applied a whole bunch of new mulch. I dont know what next season will bring.

Dont really want to use insecticide......