thanks for this. I agree. I'm pretty concerned as we so near to build and don't think its right... but not had much comment or input from architect and as amateurs until now just been thinking it would be good..but now coming to the practicalities of it..

Is there a kitchen designer you could enlist to help you with the kitchen? You do need one. This kitchen as designed is not good at all.

My other concern is how the new addition relates to the rest of the house. It seems extremely contemporary for a traditional tudor.

I've had a couple but from kitchen sales firms, but will look around for another one.

indeed it is...contemporary. in fact our heritage people in the planning department prefer it to be distinct from original building...but I share your concern . It will be pretty open plan from the existing kitchen space at the rear, linked by a glass roofed 'porch' area. I think we're had a pretty poor service from our architect tbh as all these things should have been considered, but as we're completely new to this, I'm only now really starting to have reservations, right before the build though! I think its going to be great in the end, just don't want to miss a trick and should have this nailed down by now. agghhhhh

Can you make the addition be a dining room with a sitting area (and maybe a small serving area), and do the actual kitchen work in the old space? Because I'm seeing almost no kitchen at all here, and that seems like you're getting the worst of both worlds for all your investment. What is going into the old kitchen space in your current vision?

This is what I’m worried about.. at present we planning to use the old kitchen for some storage for the kitchen , laundry room but also study space for daughter and where the dog sleeps etc.. also room for guitars and her books/games as she only has tiny bedroom - to be honest it’s not got a full plan .. it’s the garden aspect we wanted for light and view and it will be beautiful light and views., but yes can’t fit it all in!

Without details about all interior dimensions and sizes of existing cabinets, it's really difficult to give too much advice.

Putting aside the reuse, I would try to do the following, even if it means purchasing additional cabinetry:

• Ditch the sofa.
• Move the refrigerator to between the porch wall and the sink with a 9" to 12" tall utility or pantry cabinet between the refrigerator and wall so the refrigerator an open fully without hitting the wall
• Extend the counters & cabinets all the way to the "large window" (yes, even if it means putting it in front of the window somewhat -- although, depending on the dimensions, you might be able to stop short of the window by a bit)
• Move the range/cooker to the counter between the sink and "large window"
• Switch the table and island so the table is on the porch end

Can’t imagine how difficult it would be to make a sandwich in that space let alone a real meal...are you in the UK?

OP, thank goodness for your sketch with measurements!

Did I read correctly, and your kitchen is 4.5m wide x 6.5m long? (roughly 14’9”x 21’4” Imperial for us troglodytes.) I was hoping that you could reorient the island to have counters on both sides (2’ deep counters with narrow 3’6” walkways and a ~3’6” deep island), but I’ve no idea what standard depths and code requirements are in the UK.

The sink, refrigerator and stove/range/cooktop must be spaced so you can move from one to another quickly. The fridge must have a counter next to it so you have somewhere to put things going into or coming out of the fridge. You should have 42-45 inches (that is a hand more than a meter) between counters or counters and appliances to allow free movement in the kitchen.
If you want family dining in the kitchen, have enough seating for just the family. Because your home is listed, it probably has a proper dining room for when you have guests.
If you supply us with a measured drawing of the proposed kitchen space, we can give you a much better kitchen plan.

thank you. I wish we did. have a grand listed building but its fairly small - so no other dining room , Tudor (low ceilings, dark) semi detached house. we love it - quirky and no straight lines... but this extension will bring us much needed light and space. just need to get it right! we could use the existing kitchen as a dining room but It won't have the views of garden which we were hoping for. but maybe there's a compromise with a smaller table for day to day use and an extension for when more people.. we have a barn so have storage space - outside space is no problem at all :-) I'll try get a clean version with measurements of the space - I really appreciate your help everyone

yes we uk and thats the measurements - do you mean a longer thinner island - what do you mean by counters each side though - there's no particular requirements in the uk - what ever works - yes in the UK and am used to small cottage kitchen already but was hoping to have more space hence spending the money on the extension...

What Buelh said, except instead of just moving fridge and respacing other items, also add a section for pantry and small sliding broom closet. Those 2-3’ will be hard used and keep counters clear. I’d lengthen and reorient the “island” and have the table coming off of it so it flows. Right now it feels a little gate keeper esq. if you we’re trying to separate the kitchen, you can still have an end shelf on your island or some such. If you NEED something where the fridge currently is, it can be a mini bar, coffee bar, China service (only something that helps keep people out of workspace).

thanks - we have a lot of storage too in the old kitchen too...what do you mean by having the table coming off it?

ok hope this is clearer... shows the footprint of the building at least. Was the first attempt at kitchen plan which we revised as all a bit /lot squashed up....

Lisa, is what you posted the full downstairs of the house or just partial. Can you also show the new and old with how you intend to use the rooms and put in furniture?

I think seeing it now as an L extension with a breezeway, you'll be fine with it being more contemporary. It will almost feel like a greenhouse. :)

However the kitchen layout really does suck. (That's American for it's really not good) LOL. Can you post all measurements on the new space including the extension?

Yes please since that is the space we are concerned with.

thats the whole of the downstairs of our house. the only rooms changing is the room behind the new extension which is our old kitchen - the other room is the living room on the left and the middle bit is a hall with stairs upstairs . I hope its not as hot as a greenhouse...although we usually only get 3 days of summer in the UK :-)

what other measurements do you mean? the only new space if the white building - all green bits are existing. there's 1 meter at the porch end between the enterance and the new walls, the doors are bi-fold and 2.5 m and 2 m with a 1meter pillar between. the width is 4.5 meter and its 6.5 long - we don't have to have the window on the right side where it is - can be anyway

yes it sucks...we'd probably say its rubbish! hence minor panic on the streets of Birmingham,... thank you!

So, is the "1.32" label to the left of the range/cooker the actual size of the cabinet or is it the space b/w the wall and the range/cooker where a cabinet of XXm is then installed? If that's the cabinet size, does that mean that you have no filler b/w the wall and the cabinet?

What do you mean by "short" dresser? Does it mean you have a cabinet that's shorter than 34.5" (standard height for cabinets before counters in the USA)? Or, do you mean a narrow cabinet? (I.e., height vs length?)

Is the "long dresser" the entire sink base cabinet...

• Is that a 1.95m sink base cabinet with a sink installed in the middle of it?
• Does your DW fit under or inside your sink cabinet? Or, is it installed next to the sink cabinet and you're showing the entire width -- DW space + sink base cabinet?
• Is the sink supposed to be an overmount or undermount (undermount means installed under the counters and sitting on the cabinet walls; overmount means it sits on the counter itself)

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Since things appear to be different in your country, we need to understand what is normal for you vs what those of us in the USA and Canada are used to and know about. We can make all kinds of assumptions, but until we know that we're all on the same page, we will not be certain (even if we act certain!)

Other measurements -- in your original post and your latest image, some of the measurements shown are exterior measurements and without knowing how thick the exterior walls are, we don't know the interior (wall-to-wall) measurements. I suspect some people may have missed that detail.

In addition, some measurements are shown as b/w non-structural items such as counters.

Also, do your window and door/doorway measurements include trim, if there is trim around your windows and doors/doorways?

What we need are structural interior dimensions, not exterior or cabinet-to-wall or similar. Note the sample below.

"we don't have to have the window on the right side where it is - can be anyway"

(I assume you mean "anywhere")

What about the window on the bottom, can it be changed so there is approx 27" (68.5cm) on each side to allow you to put cabinets & counters wall-to-wall on the right side?

These are the dimensions we need. Not "to end of window" or including exterior walls or to/from a cabinet.

(Select/click on image to see a larger version)

Here's an example of what I was saying:

NOTE: This is NOT to scale!

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><md>Measurements in meters
A - 1
B -2.5
C-1
D-6.5
E-0.5
F -3.5
G-0.5
H-2
I-1
J-2.5
K - 1
L -4.5

Thanks!

Hi buehl. Sorry hope my measurements make sense now! Please just scrap everything except the internal measurements as a blank canvas now as we looking with completely new eyes . No trim on opening to porch as it’s open plan completely .
I’ll have another proper look later at all your helpful comments / thank you

Why not use the former kitchen space for a nice dining room with a round table? A 45” round can seat 6-7, maybe 8 tight.

A long bench at a dining table is extremely hard to get into for seating. The table needs to roll away to allow people access. The space just doesn’t seem large enough for the big table.

yes already thinking that...thanks!

I second Felizlady! I was going to suggest it as well, but thought I'd take "baby steps".

:-)

so maybe small day to day table in the kitchen...and large formal table in the existing kitchen as proper entraining table...sounds good ! that gives more space maybe for larger island and maybe even a comfy chair...

Something more like this. I’m going to be the dissenter and say you can still have a smaller table. I like this for cooking because I like shorter tables for using my rolling pin. Make it out of butcher block or marble and it will work even if people aren’t sitting at it.

As hinted at with one of the pictures above - extending tables are a thing too. Not your grandmas leaf table either! Make it less seats normally, pull it out a couple extra feet when it’s needed.

brilliant - more food for thought! :-)

Maybe if you just skip the couch, you can move the table down so it's at the end surrounded by windows (running the short direction), and then you can colonize more of the section up by the connector for a better functioning kitchen, with an island that's just making good kitchen, not doing double duty. If you have pantries and so forth in the connector, and a little left in the old kitchen, then the rest would work like one of the two-wall + island layouts that Beuhl worked up. I'd skip the breakfast bar and just make the table a great place to hang.

(you might even find that a peninsula could work here! gasp. :)

Here are a bunch of photos that seem like they might help you brainstorm. Focused on getting the most of the chance to drink in the garden view, but mostly with the seating area as an extension of the kitchen. Probably noteworthy that many of these are from the UK.

(in this one they do have a couch, but I think they have substantially more width, to judge from the storage cabinets across the island.)

hope this helps was some fun eye-candy! :)

following

I'd skip the table in the Kitchen altogether and just have an island with seating (plus a comfy chair!) You really don't need 3 (or 4) types of seating close together -- island, table, Dining Room table, comfy chair.

OK, here are some options:

[Select/Click on an image to see a larger version.]

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Layout #1:

Layout #1 - Work Zone Map:

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Layout #2:

(Edited to add measurement for island workspace and suggest change in far right wall)

Layout #2 - Work Zone Map:

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Layout #3:

Layout #3 - Work Zone Map:

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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><md>Omg you lot are brilliant... thank you for all your input. Will get round to having a proper look at the weekend

Buehl I really think this is good...we can have large family table in the existing kitchen for social events which can double as a desk for school work...one thing not sure about though - the range is new, blue and gorgeous so wanted to make it central to the room - maybe where the sink is and move the sink to the range end...but not sure this would work. Would prefer keep the sink off the island if possible

and maybe switch the seating to the porch end of the island as this would then have the view out of the big windows...?

Your kitchen is more important than most other rooms.
I would definitely forget about a sofa in there, and put a real table with six chairs instead of a built-in table which only seats a few people. You need walkways which allow one person to pass behind another person working at a counter, generally a good 42-48” American measure unless the people in the kitchen are larger than average, in which case the minimum is 48”.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><md>Thanks - we’d rather sacrifice the table than some comfy chairs (doesn’t need to be soda) if at all possible.. thinking of your previous suggestion to put the larger table for entertaining in the existing kitchen, a larger island with seating in the new kitchen and then room for comfy chairs we hope. The reason is this room is the only one with any view of outside space then as we have to demolish our conservatory to have this built. The other windows in house are small and we have a beautiful large rural garden.. but tricky trying to get what we’d ideally want in..we’d like a small telly in there and to read there too in lovely natural light

kitchen is important room in our hose. When kitchen setup is good then its comfortable to use and doing work. Design the kitchen structure based on your need and comfortable space.

"...the range is new, blue and gorgeous so wanted to make it central to the room - maybe where the sink is and move the sink to the range end...but not sure this would work. Would prefer keep the sink off the island if possible..."

The Cooking Zone is the work zone that should be the most protected from traffic. Switching sink and range will, instead, put it in the middle of major traffic. If you have a large range, protection form traffic becomes even more important!

In addition, work flow is:

Refrigerator --> Sink --> Prep Counterspace --> Range

If you switch the range and sink, you will have major zone-crossing.

Even if you put the cleanup (or only sink) in the island, you still have the same issue -- the range should be offset from the sink and DW and out of the traffic path to/from the sink and refrigerator.

Note: The sink in the island in my layouts is a prep sink. It's meant to make your Kitchen more useful for multiple cooks, either your immediate family or when guests are helping out. However, it's not needed as the layouts I posted have sufficient counterspace b/w the sink and range for your Primary Prep Zone. A Key component of a successful/useful Prep Zone is direct water access; i.e., not across an aisle. (This means the island will not be the most useful place for prepping since the water is across an aisle.)

Honestly? I think you're trying to shoehorn in too many functions for the proposed room size. What you really want is a Sitting Room/Sun Room + Kitchen and you really don't have the space for both. You may have to choose one or the other or possibly end up with a cramped and uncomfortable place to cook or read or watch television (other than while cooking)! (Besides, do you really want to sit and relax in the middle of the Kitchen??? I know I wouldn't!)

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What's so bad about the current Kitchen?

Could you make the "connector" Porch b/w the old and new space the same width as the new space and, thereby, adding some additional space for Kitchen + Dining Room + Sun/Sitting Room?

Yes, it might take time to get the changes approved, but ask yourself this:

"Is it better to delay a few months now and get it right than to hurry up and get it wrong and then have to live with it wrong for many years to come?"

As someone who grew up in the UK but now lives in the US: a dresser is a hutch. Hope this helps in transatlantic communication.

"...a dresser is a hutch"

If that's the case, then the layout with the "Short dresser" (1.32m wide) in the island will not work because it needs to be counter-height. (I'm assuming hutches are over 3' tall.)

That's too bad since I liked that layout the best! (It gives the best functionality.) My personal preferences:

Favorite -- Layout #2

Then -- Layout #1

Last place -- Layout #3

They all work functionally.

sorry for delay. been having a rethink! think you're right asking for amendment to plans. we are now thinking of having a window rather than bi fold door at the porch end of the extension - mirrored on the other side. Which will mean ditching the island but adding a lot more counter space and possibly then a peninsula separating the kitchen and seating area . we would have cupboards around and into the porch area and existing kitchen too increasing storage and linking the two areas together . We would make existing kitchen the dining room. I'll send a pic now. Only concern is the amount of space between cooker and sink/fridge... would be across the kitchen almost 3 meters...

Latest thoughts !!

No because you don’t want seating inside the work zone and your work zone is a pathway between sitting area and rest of house

Go back to one of buehls layouts

we could switch the breakfast bar to the other side and have seating on the outside of the work zone.. but that makes more tricky to fit a decent size sofa in for chilling..