twinskidmore

Advice needed on kitchen layout

Vickie
6 months ago

We are preparing to remodel our 1989 kitchen. We still have the original Jenn-Air stovetop and GE wall oven (both need to go!). My husband prefers to do a complete gut and remodel, so since we're going that route, now would be the time to make any changes in design layout.

I have attached a picture of a sketch drawn to scale, plus photos of the existing kitchen (please ignore the clutter, and the almost bare walls since I started pulling down the fruit wallpaper I have been looking at for 20+ years!) We are planning to open up the wall between the breakfast area and the formal dining room (currently painted deep red, also changing color). We do not need two full size tables, so we're hoping to combine the space and make things flow better, as well as have a more efficient kitchen triangle.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
it will only allow me to upload 6 pictures, so hopefully these will be helpful.
Thanks!

Comments (71)

  • Karenseb
    6 months ago

    Here is an idea that enlarges your dining room, creates an office and give you a pantry. I'm not sure the kitchen space will be big enough, but the pantry will help a lot with storage.

    I closed the doorway between the office and new dining room, put in an alcove for a buffet and put in shelving in the office.

    You could take out the office shelves in the office and put a built in buffet along the entire wall for dishes and utensils.

  • emilyam819
    6 months ago

    Nice^^^

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  • Buehl
    6 months ago
    last modified: 6 months ago

    They already have an office elsewhere...I wonder if there is another "type" of room they'd like.

    Or, maybe use the current office space for a Laundry Room and the old DR as the new office. Then my other suggestions might work (moving the PR to the current Laundry Room space (with a few tweaks to make it "private")).

    I'd still like to know if they can eliminate the walls or move the doorway...my questions from 4 hours ago...

  • Vickie
    6 months ago

    Yes, the red wall separating the breakfast area and dining room can be removed. We were told it is not load bearing. All of the windows in those 2 rooms are low, well below cabinet height. Yes, those are registers beneath those windows. The HVAC ducts run underneath the house. The dropped ceiling in the bay window area cannot be raised. The roof lines above it would not allow for that unfortunately. My husband is working on another sketch to address concerns of commenters. Will share shortly. Thanks!

  • Buehl
    6 months ago
    last modified: 6 months ago

    Do you have the following dimensions? I know it's a lot, but the squares are so light and it's difficult to count them & estimate partials. Since there are so many items, estimation errors will definitely add up to bigger errors!



    FAQ: Layout Help

  • Vickie
    6 months ago

    Hi Buehl,

    Thanks for all of your help. I don't have the newest sketch yet, but I did attempt to take the measurements you requested. I will try to list them in order, including commenting on the measurements you estimated with a ? sign.

    A 76"

    B 137"

    blue 32"? Yes (doorway into great room)

    blue 29"? Yes

    red 29"? Yes

    blue 28"? No 38"

    blue 30"? Yes - doorway into dining room

    C + D 64" (still currently one wall)

    red 9'2"? Yes

    E 9.5"

    F 45"

    G 67" (interior dimension)

    H 48" (window, 24" off floor)

    I 9.5"

    J 23"

    K 39"

    L 15" (electrical panel located on inside wall of laundry room)

    M 22"

    N 73"

    red 15'1" Yes

    O 6"

    P 32" exterior doorway from garage

    Q 7"

    R + S + T 94" (no current niche)

    (12" depth pantry cabinets floor to ceiling, 48" space between front of pantry cabinet and front of fridge, 34" front of fridge to back wall.....freezer is located outside in garage)

    U 94"

    red 17'6"? Yes

    V 72" (65" width of pantry cabinets + 7" recess)

    W 53"

    X 45"

    Y 9'2"

    Z 26'1" +/-



  • Buehl
    6 months ago

    OK, I think I have it...



  • Vickie
    6 months ago

    Any chance you could show some of the suggested options on your sketch? We only need one dining table, so it would be nice to see how to design the best layout with the larger dining space created by removing that wall between the two rooms.

    We're actually considering moving the laundry room, but it may be cost prohibitive. However, if we see a design that makes it worth the added expense of moving the laundry room, it would be nice to see our options there as well.

    Thanks!

  • Vickie
    6 months ago

    Hi Lindsay, I would really appreciate that! Buehl actually made it to scale using measurements that he asked me to take. I don't know if he can send it maybe? I just have the one my husband drew on graph paper and it's too large to fit on my flatbed scanner. I had taken a picture of it with my cell phone to share in the original post.

  • cpartist
    6 months ago

    Just an FYI, Buehl is a she. :)

  • Vickie
    6 months ago

    cool thanks.

  • Buehl
    6 months ago
    last modified: 6 months ago

    I haven't forgotten you...I've been busy with work but plan to work on it this weekend.

    (Yes, I'm a "she"!)

  • Buehl
    6 months ago
    last modified: 6 months ago

    Lindsay can download what I posted and she'll have a to-scale drawing based on your measurements. There's no reason for her to re-do it. She can use mine and then post her ideas here for all of us to see and critique and/or build on.

  • Vickie
    6 months ago

    Just FYI..... sketch of entire floor plan for those who asked....

  • cpartist
    6 months ago

    Why is your master bedroom next to the great room and the playroom on the outside corner of the house?

  • Vickie
    6 months ago

    That's the way the original owner had it built I guess. Original house was 3 bedrooms and office. We added on the playroom and 4th bedroom/second half bath (600sqft)

  • Buehl
    6 months ago

    OK, here's one idea. My weekend turned out to be much busier than planned, so I've only had time for one. I'd like your feedback b/f I continue with other options -- I'd like to know if the changes I made are possible and if not all are, which ones are.

    Relocation of the Laundry Room and Powder Room. The biggest change, I think, is therelocation of the Laundry Room and Powder Room.

    • The new Powder Room is where the current Laundry Room is now
    • The current Dining Room is converted to an Office (similar to what Karen suggested)
    • The new Laundry Room is where the current Office is (not shown since it was not shown on the original layout). This puts the new Laundry Room close to where 99% of the dirty clothes come from and clean clothes go back to. It eliminates carting the laundry up/down stairs and/or back & forth through the entire home.

    .

    Removed or changed the following walls:

    • The 29" wall b/w the current Breakfast Room and the Kitchen is removed
    • The wall b/w the current Breakfast room and current Dining Room is moved "down" 24"
    • The current Powder Room walls are removed
    • A 36" long, thinner wall (~3.5") is added to "block" the view of the Powder Room door from the Kitchen. To get a "thinner" wall, simply turn the studs 90 degrees. This does not affect the structural integrity of the wall. Placing the toilet on the "bottom" also helps with this
    • The new Kitchen/Hallway wall is moved to the "right" far enough to give you a 48-inch Hallway to/from the Garage (~3").)
    • The "bottom" wall of the current Laundry Room (new PR) is moved "up" about 9" to give you added storage in the new Dining Room
    • You can see the existing walls as dotted lines in their current locations. They're very light, so I hope they show up.

    .

    Door/Doorway changes:

    • The new Powder Room door is a 24" door and is a pocket door (plus 3" trim on each side for a total of 30").
    • The doors b/w the new Dining Room and the new Office are French Doors -- two 24" doors (plus 3" trim on each side for a total of 54").
    • The doors b/w the new Dining Room and the Great Room are also French Doors -- two 24" doors (plus 3" trim on each side for a total of 54"). I did this to match the new Dining Room/Office doorway and to provide privacy/quiet in the new Office, when needed.
    • The doorway b/w the Kitchen and Great Room is widened to 72" (plus 3" trim on each side for a total of 78"). This opens up the Kitchen to the Great Room plus gives you plenty of space for the seat on the "bottom" of the island (more on that later).

    .

    Island

    • The Island is 87"W x 50.5"D. Big enough for larger projects (baking, science, art, etc.), but not so big that it will be difficult to clean. (The maximum depth of an island I would ever recommend is 60" -- that allows someone to be able to reach the center without straining, but you do have to walk all around the island to get it all when cleaning.)
    • It has 4 seats -- 3 along the long end plus one on the short end (the Great Room end). The seat on the short end provides a place for someone to sit facing toward the others sitting at the island -- especially when only 2 or 3 people are sitting there.
    • The seating overhang on both sides is 15" -- the minimum recommended for counter-height seating.
      It has the primary Prep Zone.
    • It has a 21" sink base and the trash pullout. The best location for the trash pullout is in the primary Prep Zone and near the Cooking Zone. Far more trash & recyclables are "generated" while prepping and, later cooking, than while cleaning up. However, the trash is also near the Cleanup Zone so it's easily accessible from there as well. If you'd prefer, you could put a small trash can under the cleanup sink.
    • There is additional storage under the overhang for seldom used items (e.g., seasonal). It's only 9" deep, but it can still fit a lot in that depth. It should be cabinets with stationary shelves -- it's too shallow for drawers or Roll Out Tray Shelves (ROTS) and, even if it was deep enough, you wouldn't be able to access the top half b/c of the overhang.
    • The aisles around the island are wide enough (1) so more than one person can be working in the Kitchen at the same time, (2) so someone can walk b/w an open DW door and the island while unloading the DW, (3) to allow traffic to pass b/w the island and the table, even if people are seated at both the table and island, and (4) so traffic can get to the Great Room even if someone is sitting at the island's short end seat.

    .

    Other Notes:

    • The three primary work zones are nicely separated so multiple people can work in the Kitchen at the same time...a couple of people prepping, someone cooking/baking, someone loading/unloading the DW, etc.
    • The refrigerator is located so anyone who needs to get to it from outside the Kitchen can without getting in the way of others working in the Kitchen. It is near the Great Room and a straight shot from the new Dining Room (for setting the table with condiments).
    • The Cleanup Zone has cabinets and counters 3" deeper than standard. This provides you with (1) more storage, (2) more "face room" b/w the cleanup sink and the wall, and (3) more room behind the sink for cleaning and a faucet (some faucets need a bit of room to use the handle). [Base cabinets are 27"D; Upper cabinets are 15"D; Counter is 28.5"D. If you cannot get (or afford) deeper base cabinets, they can be pulled out from the wall by 3" when installing them. 15"D upper cabinets are pretty standard today and are often desirable even if counters aren't deeper -- some dinner plates do not fit in 12" deep cabinets. Remember, a 12" deep cabinet really only has 10" of space when accounting for the back wall and face frames.]
    • Dish storage is easily access from the DW as well as the new Dining Room...for both setting and clearing the table.
    • There's quite a bit of general storage in the Kitchen -- a 30" wide pantry cabinet, plus storage in the island, above & below the oven and MW, above the refrigerator, and, of course, in the base and upper cabinets. In addition, there's the 69" of storage in the new Dining Room. I'm normally not a proponent of pantry cabinets, but I think in this case it's better since there's no convenient spot for a reach-in pantry. (However, if you had a range instead of a cooktop/wall oven, then I think there would be enough room. See the optional layout at the end.)
    • The corner is voided out to provide wider drawers. If, however, you'd rather have a corner susan, the adjacent cabinets would be reduced by 9". So, 33" => 24" and 21" =>12"

    .

    OK, here it is:



    Work Zones:



    Optional range + pantry:



  • Buehl
    6 months ago

    Forgot to post the new Library/Office:



  • Vickie
    6 months ago

    Thank you so much for your detailed ideas. We have discussed some of your ideas during brainstorming, such as moving the laundry room to the back of the house and relocating the half-bath into the laundry room area. it definitely makes sense, after dragging all that laundry back and forth for 20 years!.....If we are able to do that, however, we had only considered making the old half-bath into a walk-in pantry while keeping the peninsula (thus why we are asking others for ideas that we just can't "see"). The island definitely opens up the space though.... just not sure if we can remove the corner walls btw kitchen/dining room/great room.
    We definitely are planning to have a range instead of a wall oven/separate cooktop. We really like your ideas and how much the island opens up the space. I particularly like all the different work zones. We may find that making too many changes will be cost prohibitive, so it might be nice to be aware of any options we have not yet considered (i.e. any ideas for improved work flow without drastic changes).
    Thanks again for all of your hard work!

  • Vickie
    2 months ago

    Hi Buehl,

    Sadly we have not made any progress toward our kitchen remodel. We talked with several contractors and designers, but haven't come up with a solid plan that wouldn't "exceed the bank." And of course as we got closer to the holidays (Oct/Nov) it was more difficult to get anything scheduled even if we knew exactly what we wanted to do. Our boys are playing high school baseball so it would not make sense to start work now (crazy hectic pace of practices and games), so we're thinking we may want to wait until late summer or early fall to begin work.

    However, now would be a good time to finalize plans and get on the contractor's schedule. As much as we would love to move the laundry room to the back of the house and move the powder room to the current laundry room space, we just don't think it will be feasible cost-wise. (already looking at $50K+ just to replace current floorplan with new cabinets, countertops, flooring, not even ncluding new appliances, and an additional $25-30K to move those rooms) The alternative of just getting rid of the "elephant in the room" powder room really isn't an option either, as it's used daily by everyone.

    Would you possibly have any ideas for how to fully utilize the kitchen space with the newly opened wall between the dining room and breakfast area, while leaving the existing laundry and powder rooms in place? If we need to get rid of the peninsula and perhaps have a support beam or small corner wall at that junction where the 4 rooms meet, that would be fine. It's basically a blank slate with everything being gutted, but working around the existing laundry and powder rooms, bay window, and dining room windows. We just want to create the best floorplan/most efficient layout while maintaining the current laundry room and powder room spaces (sure do wish we could move those though!).
    Thanks so much!

  • Vickie
    last month

    Does anybody know how to tag Buehl? I was hoping she would see my post from Feb 3, or that I could contact her directly with a message. Thanks!

  • jani
    last month

    Could you move the kitchen to outside wall giving you more light, since the DR wall is being removed. Then the plumbing is available to laundry/bath/ mudroom.

  • Vickie
    last month

    Jani,
    I wish we could, but the windows in the breakfast area are 2 ft off the floor and in the dining room they are even lower, 16" from the floor.

  • jani
    last month

    Vickie, ours were too..let me see if I can find our blueprint

  • Vickie
    last month

    Jani, any luck locating your blueprints? Really curious how that would work. Also curious if Buehl is still online?
    Thanks!

  • jani
    last month

    I'm sorry... I have the real pics on my computer.
    here is original.. and 2nd is new. I will try to get real pics

  • jani
    last month

    I tried posting

  • Vickie
    last month

    Thanks Jani. I would love to see some pictures of your kitchen! How did they work around the bay windows? The bottom of ours are just 2 feet off the floor

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    Vickie-this is first time I am seeing your post. I have a fundamental question. Have you consulted with a good real estate agent to see if the changes you may make are going to bring you value. I fear your limitations will result in sub optimum results and will not be a good use of your money. Is selling this home and buying one that better suits your family a better use of your resources? I think it is a serious question. To say nothing of 9 or more months implementing these changes. Cash flow is so critical.

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    last month

    Oh, in any case, cleaning and purging out your home will serve you well for either getting ready for upgrades or preparing for sale. Big job and time consuming. So rest assured, purging is critical to either path.

  • jani
    last month

    I posted lots of pics. I dont see them

  • Vickie
    last month

    Flo, thanks for the question/advice. We don't plan to move, but I did ask a few real estate agents their thoughts on budget. General consensus was to limit cost to $30K, but even with keeping the same exact layout and replacing with all new materials, our estimates all exceeded that amount. Bummer.
    So I thought that if we're going to be spending more than recommended, we may as well get an optimal layout while we're already disrupted. I don't want to go crazy with it though.... that's why I asked for advice on layout while keeping the laundry room and half bath in place since relocating them would add to the overall cost.

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    29 days ago

    Ok. Glad you sought that advice. Have you factored in possible retiring of house due to requirements to meet current code? I am very concerned about your budget. Believe me, kitchens are money pits. I commend you for coming here for help. It will help a lot. In order to stay on that budget, develop a spreadsheet with every item you will be spending on. Everything from flooring, to wiring, plumbing, lighting, cabinets, countertops, hardware for cabinets backsplash, etc. etc. Put a few thousand in for designer help on decision-making to ensure everything is cohesive at the end. $30k will be sucked up with electricals , plumbing, flooring and countertops. You can get bargains and that will be valuable so price EVERYTHING out before you do anything. One more thing. Don’t do a two level anything - not peninsula or island.

  • jani
    28 days ago

    I wish I can get my photos uploaded. I was in same boat a few years ago . I got high quotes from contractors. I plan on selling in future but I hated my kitchen. I got individual quotes for floor, electrical, plumber cabinets, gas and carpenter. I bought all new appliances(sold my older ones) , new layout, new windows, quartz countertops, hardwood in LR and kitchen(5k)
    my total coat under 45K I did my own tiling .

    They took out one wall and the rest down to studs.

  • jani
    28 days ago

    I paid an designer/architect friend to draw up a rough drawing which i posted

  • jani
    22 days ago

    What the heck! My photos disappeared


  • jani
    22 days ago





  • jani
    22 days ago





  • jani
    22 days ago






  • jani
    22 days ago





    Sorry, they got broken up, I think they wouldn't let me post so many at a time.

  • Vickie
    22 days ago

    Thanks Jani! So pretty! I'm going to have to try to wrap my brain around this to visualize in my space. I'll show my husband and see what he thinks. He's better at visualizing things.... perhaps he can sketch this out for us. If we could do all of this with the same budget you had, I'd be all for it. I will probably have to become my own contractor though. Thanks again for sharing your pictures.

  • PRO
    Flo Mangan
    22 days ago

    Really nice jani!!! Looks very functional and beautiful too. Doesn’t get much better! You rock!!

  • jani
    21 days ago

    You can get quotes and layouts from contractors and also kitchen cabinet places like HD or Lowes or online like Cliq studios, IKEA. They drew up blueprints etc. I definitely didn't have a big budget but I wanted a few quality items.

  • Vickie
    20 days ago

    Hey thanks...I will make more calls. But so far my estimates from contractors were in the $45K+ range, not including cost of new appliances. That was for all new cabinets, countertops, flooring, painting, and removing that wall.

    Strongly considering utilizing our bay window area like you did....just wondering, with your new layout with the sink and dishwasher over there, what cabinet do you use to hold your dishes and glasses?

  • jani
    20 days ago

    My glasses are in upper cabinets near the stove. I have a spice drawer( I love) . My island has drawers which hold my dishes. (I love). I will take pictures tomorrow. I actually have more space for storage. All my food is in the pantry...back side of island

    Far left is the pull outs for food. ( no doors on yet)

    I have deep drawers on the right of island.

  • Vickie
    19 days ago

    Jani, I still love your layout utilizing the bay window for the sink (I'm tired of staring at the wall behind my sink).... but after discussing with my husband, he said we just can't make that happen in our configuration. While we are on a crawl space, that area under the windows is on the very shallow end of the house (you can almost stand up under the house on the opposite bedroom end, but have to belly crawl on the laundry room end).

    We are planning to remove the wall to the left of the bay window that opens into the current dining room, but the wall to the right, where the laundry room is located, contains the breaker panel for the entire house. Plus the entryway from the garage is adjacent to there as well, so it might be more disruptive walking in with an island positioned there, at least with the current location of the half bathroom.

    Since Buehl has my current layout with dimensions on her computer, and shown earlier in this comment thread, I would love to hear suggestions for layout ideas while keeping the laundry room and half-bath in their current locations. We are open to losing the peninsula and utilizing an island, but we just don't know the most efficient layout for this. We are also willing to move plumbing, HVAC vents etc to accommodate a more efficient cabinet layout, if we need to move the sink, cooktop, refrigerator, etc. And the wall oven can go if it's more economical to use a slide-in range, if that would help with a new layout.

    We appreciate everyone's comments/ideas. Thanks!

  • Vickie
    14 days ago

    Has anyone had a chance to take another look? Thanks.

  • emilyam819
    13 days ago

    Is there a foundation under your bay window, or is it cantilevered? Just wondering, if you straightened the wall, you could have a nice dining area in the old dining + old bay area.

    But if you don’t want to do much structural work, I think @Karensb had the best plan.

  • Vickie
    12 days ago

    We definitely don't want to make any structural changes to the exterior. We had considered Jani's suggestion of moving the sink to the bay window area, which would have involved changing the windows (which I was okay with). We ultimately decided that's not really feasible for the plumbing etc with the low clearance of the crawl space beneath that area. We could, however, change the locations of the sink and cooktop (either swapping or relocating to a more efficient layout) if that's needed. There is room beneath that area of the kitchen to work more easily. Hoping some of you have some other ideas?? Thanks.

  • Vickie
    19 hours ago

    Anybody bored enough to take another look? Still gathering ideas until we can meet with people in person again. Thanks 😊

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