z6 is rather divergent.. big city name plz ...

Northeast Ohio

the wonderful horrible OH clay??? ....

do you need that lawn out there for anything... or might there be options other than that small band around the pit???

last pic ... what is that tree or tree shaped shrub on the right near the statue ... i would put one of that potential... out in the lawn.. to hide the neighbors house ...

i know you asked about conifers.. but we start with the backbones ... then work our way in .. or at least i would ...

do you happen to be in cleveland??? ... is richy's nursery still open?? ... though i am pretty sure he retired.. so i dont know if its still called that ...

ken

Hey Ken - Yes I’m in Cleveland! I’ll check out Richy’s. I do need the yard as I have 3 dogs and a whole mess of kids. 😂 originally I was going to landscape the fence line but decided it was too big of a job right now. I want to do the curve around the patio to block that wall from view somewhat, but also to create a more intimate feeling on the patio. Right now it feels like I just plopped a patio down in the middle of the yard - there’s no transition. I want to soften it around the edges. I also want to create a little shade because the patio right now gets a lot of sun. I don’t know if you can see or not - but I have a dining table tucked in between 2 dogwoods is with a huge rhododendron behind it and it is my favorite place in my house because it is private and feels cool and leafy. Trying to get some of that feeling by the fire pit. Thanks so much for the response!

What is a DWARF river birch ?

and , yes that band seems smallish

any tree planted would be outside of that

ron

I found a dwarf river birch that gets to about 10ft. And I’m able to expand the size of the bed.

Ken - My husband and I walked around and agree with you that we don’t need all that grass and are going to triple the width of the bed which would be 12ft. Do you think that’s wide enough? I would like to have several layers of plants.

Thank you for the suggestions. I am not going to landscape along the fencing as it is too much work. There used to be a giant hedge there that over many years turned into a jungle of who knows what. We had it all dug up and stumps ground so our neighbor could put in the plastic wall 🙄. There are lots of weeds and regrowth that will be removed again and we will put cardboard down over the winter to get it to die once and for all then seed for grass in the spring.

Are you saying that the current bed size 4’ is wide enough?

I did buy some giant hydrangeas (LA Dreaming) as they were having a sale at the garden center. I also bought a Baby Blue Spruce and a HetziJuniper because they were also on sale. And a Dura Heat river birch. Am worried that these might get too tall but I have a hard time visualizing height for some reason.

Thoughts on those?

Alright I’m returning the river birch. It will be too big. @whaas_5a thank you for the tree suggestions. Love that paperbark maple. We have a few Japanese maples that the previous owner planted but I found this orangeola Japanese maple that is gorgeous. Still thinking and planning. Appreciate this space to do that.

If you are thinking the 'Orangeola' is a tree it will need decades to get there because it is a weeping lace leaf Japanese maple cultivar.

Oh yes I would use it in place of a shrub not a tree.

The fence really cheapens the overall feel and definitely not complimentary to the stonework.

Putting in a simple line of Hydrangea paniculata will actually be less work than grass. The payoff will be literal and visually appealing.

It looks like you're picking up random bargains. Its very tempting but not a good idea unless you're filling in a particular spot. You'll be much happier if you start drawing it out and focus on what you're trying to accomplish.

Going to a garden center without a plan is like going to the grocery store on an empty stomach - you end up with many bad decisions.

Baby Blue Spruce (nothing Baby about it) is not a good option for almost any state east of the Mississippi river. This particular species and its cultivars for that matter struggle with humidity. If you desire blue spruce get dwarf cultivars like 'Blue Pearl' or 'Ruby Teardrops'.

Thanks for reply. It’s not a Baby Blue Eyes but a Baby Blue - which I read was a different cultivar. The tag says 8’ at 10 years which see like what I was looking for. I know that spruces will continue to grow but 8’ at 10 years sounded ok to me. Let me know if you’ve had a different experience.

And yes the stupid plastic fence is terrible. Spent so much money to use real stone only to now have to contend with this. I LOVE the idea of a hydrangea hedge but I think I wouldn’t be able to afford the number of plants it would take to get it started. Any way to do it more cheaply?

The 15 gallon hydrangeas I bought I’m in love with so they are staying next to the patio. ❤️

Here’s the tag for the spruce

Plantings take time to grow - the seating area isn't going to be much shielded from the plastic fence anytime soon without something like a second fence or a trellis being erected around at least part of it. And that would certainly make the seating area feel less exposed in general.

Those conifers are in tiny pots relative to their crown sizes, be sure to pull the roots open and spread them at planting time.

And August is just about the worst time to plant - be sure to water religiously after planting, unless buckets of rain happen to come down afterward. Also break up the soil over a wide area when digging the planting holes, mulch after planting to improve soil conditions for plant establishment.

The spruce is a Colorado blue spruce which is the key point more than which particular named selection it is - Colorado spruce is adapted to the Rocky Mountain region, can be problematic when planted in the East.

You asked about non-conifer evergreens:

Viburnums, boxwood, mahonia, holly, euonymus (shrub variety, not the vining types!), rhododendrons, azaleas, gold mop falsecypress, daphne

Also native honeysuckle vine (L. sempervirens, NOT the invasive japanese imports) keeps its leaves in winter, and blooms nearly all summer here in full sun. Lovely on a trellis or other support structure.

All are thriving in either my or my neighbor's yards here in Central Ohio.

I had to pull out a couple of junipers and cedars because of a problem with rust so not sure I could recommend, unless you know that it isn't a problem in your area.

@Embothrium - I was planning on keeping all of these in their pots until late September. Do you think that’s ok?

understand.. conifers are trees ...

and no tree stops growing at some magical height .... most estimates with conifers are at ten years.. presume at 20.. they will be twice as big ...

before i forget... do all your planning from the chairs ... the height you will be sitting there ... there is a big difference between what you see standing vs sitting ...

back to the lesson ... take any common name.. and find the latin name ... the websites with the best info.. ALWAYS use the latin ... and then look for the annual growth rate ... this will tell you how much it should grow every season ... and then you just multiply by the decades ....

i will do this one for you ...

first baby blue spruce: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffcm&q=baby+blue+spruce&ia=web

the 4th link there takes you to this if you click on the right link there: https://www.babybluespruce.com/baby-blue

bullet point two says: The growth rate i.e: the rate of extension of the leader, is slower in the first two to three years and increases every year until at approx. three feet tall growth becomes similar to other blue spruce types

soooo .. in 20 or thirsty years.. this will be a telephone pole ... it is ONLY a seed source cultivar for its blue color ...

this is how i look for future potential .. note the latin name: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffsb&q=picea+pungens+baby+blue&iax=images&ia=images

whass said all this ...

now.. on the other hand.. there is a DWARF variation on the theme named baby blue eyes ... dwarf means it has a reduced annual growth rate.. so over the same decades.. it will end up smaller ...

it appears to be a plant from the huge wholesaler monrovia.. note the first thing they mention.. is its slower growing ... that is why that name was mentioned above: https://www.monrovia.com/plant-catalog/plants/3634/baby-blue-eyes-spruce/

and here is future potential : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=picea+pungens+baby+blue+eyes+ACS&t=ffsb&iax=images&ia=images

so thats how to research conifers .. and frankly.. and other NAMED plant

hit send now before it gets ruined

ken

now.. if it were me.. i would kill the remove everything at the fence.. and make it mowable lawn.. and once a year or so.. i would kill everything below the fence... so i didnt have to weedwhip it every week ...

once you create the sight block where you sit.. you wont be looking at the fence anyway ...

once again .. i would put a tree or two out halfway to the fence.. something like a redbud ... nothing huge ...

then i would move in toward the patio .. and add some shrubs.. the grow much more quickly ... and will top out around 6 to 8 feet.. and only need some rejuvenation pruning in the future ...

i dont know if you need to make it as wide as you now suggest ... as that will be a lot of mulch to cover it every year or so ....

once you get the trees and shrubs in.. then you can fool around with some perennials and annuals.. to fill blank space.. while the other things grow to size ...

a row of sunflowers would do that in one season ... think outside your box..

no matter what you do .... its going to take a few years to accomplish your goals.. unless you have an unlimited check book to do it fast.. most of us dont ...

sooo .... in summation.. conifers are slow to start.. and get going after a year or two ... and really never stop in your lifetime.. short of dying young ...

planting trees in your clay will be its own trick ... you could start a new post on that if you wish.. or find old posts on that topic ...

timing is also important ... never plant in the heat of summer ... either fall or spring.. so you have time to make a plan ...

you might also want to start a post in the perennial and annual forums for suggestions on fast growing tall plants for that faster result ...

you need a plan.. you cant just go out shopping and hope for a long term result ... i agree is like grocery shopping when you are hungry .. lol ...

ken

The main problem with planting in summer is keeping up with the watering, stock being held in pots instead is then merely more vulnerable to being allowed to dry out. Unless grouped right around a water source that makes it being more likely to be kept up with than if planted out some distance from that source.

Another problem with container stock being held until fall is keeping it from having the sun beat on the pots and cook the roots.

Ken - thank you for your posts! I learned a lot and also was entertained. I love how you write probably just as you speak.

I wholly agree on decimating the weeds along the fence line and planting grass seed there. While I’d love to have some type of hedge it is too long and feels like too much work. I like your idea of putting a tree or two out a bit between the bed and the fence. Maybe that’s where I put my blue spruce?

Ok now that I’ve returned the crazy expensive river birch (it was $200 plus I was paying them $150 to deliver and plant!) I need to find a smallish tree to put at the end of bed. We really need some shade there. I would like a tree that is open and loose and the light is dappled. I like the paperbark maple suggested earlier but not sure it’s loose enough for me. I’m thinking something that tops out around 15’ and has a decent size canopy to provide that shade I’m looking for.

I really think I need to figure this tree out before I do anything else.

There’s a beautiful Kousa dogwood on the other end of this bed maybe I just plant another one of those?

I had a feeling time and money were of concern. It’s the reason I suggested Hydrangea paniculata. Very low maintenance, fast growing and very attractive. You can typically get 1 gallon pots for $16. Sometimes 4” pot for $10.

These would grow to several feet tall within a few years. What is there 75’ of fence? Plant them on 6’-7’ centers. Looking at paying the same as that birch tree. $200 to block the fence seems like a no brainer not only for its beauty but will increase the value of

your outdoor space.

I thought Baby Blue and Baby Blue Eyes where the same. None the less 8’ in 10’years isn’t too far off from a full sized blue spruce.

Take was and that spruce back and get this Donna’s Rainbow from Dans Dwarf Conifers. Better Blue, better texture and will be half the size as the other.

Take a look at Amelanchiers (serviceberries), as Whaas suggested. They may have the open structure you’re looking for. Another gorgeous small tree to consider, although it’s not open, would be Heptacodium miconoides (Seven son flower).

Redbuds have lovely structure, but I think aren't really a full sun tree - and they do seed around.

I have a small variegated dogwood (can't recall the variety) w/ yellow, green, cream leaves - very pretty.

Cornelian cherry (another dogwood with small yellow flowers very early in spring) is also a nice idea.

Thanks for all the advice. I ended up with the the Baby Blue Spruce, hetzi juniper, LA Dreamin hydrangeas, a mugo pine, smoke bush/tree, red twig dogwood shrub, and went with a Nishki Willow for the tree. Got them all planted today. Have some more work to do adding perennials and mulch but so far I’m very happy with how it’s turning out.

I love serviceberries, but since you just bought a juniper, a dogwood (one resistant to anthracnose like kousas or one of the crosses - the Rutgers Hybrids are nice) or redbud might be better small trees.

Serviceberries are one of several hosts for cedar-apple rust, which survives by cycling between junipers (Eastern Red Cedar is one of its preferred hosts) and a number of trees from the apple tribe (Apple, pear, quince, hawthorn, serviceberry). Having both doesn't guarantee the disease (we had both for years with no issue), and not having both doesn't always spare your tree (a neighbor could have the alternate host), but I might not plant the two at the same time.