I think you are right, austin, that HT own roots are generally weak and were all developed when grafted roses were the norm.

Most of the HTs produced in the last 90 or so yearss were bred with the expectation that they would be grafted to a "hunky" rootstock . . . So, on their own roots, most of them make smaller, less-robust plants.

A really GREAT example of this is the rose in commerce as 'Francis Dubreuil,' which it turns out is the Kordes HT, 'Barcelona'. (The real 'Francis Dubreuil' is, I think, presumed extinct.)

An exhibitor of my acquaintance, shows it (or did anyhow) as 'Francis Dubreuil' said that, budded onto Fortuniana, it is a vigorous, upright, 5-6-ft plant producing blooms that show well, on firm stems. (Which, if you realize that it's an HT, makes sense.) On its own-roots, it's a lower-growing bush.

A few HTs really do well, own-root ... 'Secret', for instance, does. I wish it'd never been budded. But if I was going to grow HTs, I'd probably look for budded plants.

Austin I have several hybrid teas own root from Heirloom also and they really take their time to get going. I planted Amazing Grace 2 years ago and it is still a 3 small canes plants. Most of my roses came from Heirloom own root (except the Austins) and they all have done great and grown a lot, except the few hybrid teas. Sheila and Jeri are on the money, they just behave better grafted and I do not think it is anything you have and haven’t done. They will take more time.

Live and learn- thanks guys I really should have figured that out before I ordered, it is a logical. I guess silly me thought some plant growing miracle had occurred since I grew them 35 yrs ago. I prefer own root because things grow so big here but I don't like waiting years for results. thanks again for taking time to respond.

In all honesty, there have always been a few cultivars that didn't need the boost ... but they're not the majority. Pity.

I am in Florida zone 10 nematodes are prevalent... most of my roses need to be on fortuniana root stock... however, I have a couple that do well own root.... one is Dark Desire. It does so well that I think when it comes off patent it should be used as root stock. It is very vigorous.... in fact mine is 10 ft and acts like a climber. I also have Frederic Mistral own root. It too is vigorous and over 8 foot. The only other own root HT I have in the ground at this time is Quietness.... I have some others that are currently in pots... I am planning on trying to but these in the ground after they get a little larger.

I am not sure if you are interested in these. They are all fragrant.... they might be smaller in your location... but I would definitely recommend Frederic Mistral and Quietness.... As I would love to try Dark Desire as a root stock it is not necessarily my favorite rose. IT is SUPER thorny, and the roses are only on the tops unless you bend it over and let it create laterals like a climber..... mine doesn't really fit where I originally put it, but since it does sp well as own root I hate to kill it by trying to move it.

My own roots from Heirloom and Roses Unlimited have done very well. I‘ve kept almost all of the them in pots or raised beds since I don’t want to try out if their roots are suitable for my heavy clay. I find by the end of the second season my Heirloom roses have caught up with an average Bare root that I’ve had the same amount of time.

Below is Rose Sachet, from Heirloom planted in the ground, start of 2nd season.

Big Purple and Dee-lish are doing great for me. I don't have many HTs, but these two own-root roses are awesome. Strong upright stems and healthy in my BS+PM hell in PNW. Lemon Spice is also good but a one can wonder. I hope she can do better next year. They all smell sooooo good that I don't want to pull my nose out of them.

BenT - I have a Just Joey coming from Heirloom today. I could not resist your comments or pictures on this rose. I have read that JJ can be a weaker plant and as this will be an own root I have concerns. I had planned on him going behind Angle Face and Love Song as their backdrop with a walk & garage behind him. This placement is now causing doubts. He will receive a lot of shade from these larger plants when young. I would appreciate your advice on his placement. I found a later post that you said you had JJ on fortuniana so I may have screwed up on this. Thanks, BR

Interesting thread. I find that a lot of hybrid teas from around 2000 onward (that date is somewhat arbitrary) can do just fine own root if nurtured in a pot for a season or two to build up strength before planting out in the garden. The newer Kordes and Meilland hybrid teas are so vigorous that many of them can be planted in the garden directly as bands.

And there are quite a few older hybrid teas that take a while to start going but seem just fine on their own roots once they have time to settle in. Crimson Glory, Lemon Spice and Tiffany all fit this category. Deep Secret, Jadis and Velvet Fragrance also do well own root.

I have heard that Double Delight and Mirandy can grow well own root but both of these were duds for me.

I find there is a lot of variability in vigor among commercially available clones of Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona. My plant from Roses Unlimited has been wonderfully vigorous. Dense, bushy growth with massive flushes of heavenly fragrant dark red blooms every 4-5 weeks. This has been my favorite rose to keep as a “pot pet” so I am not sure I would ever want it to ever be grafted and have even more vigor. Love this rose!

I cannot give you the most relevant advice gardening in zone 6b, but for what it's worth...

Grafted hybrid teas (for me on Dr. Huey or Multiflora), on an appropriate rootstock for your zone and soil conditions (I bet roses on fortuniana rootstocks, if you have sandy soil, will thrive, and if clay, Dr. Huey may do better), have always done better for me than own root roses.

That said, I grow mostly own root HT roses, a contradiction at first glance, but my HTs are mostly 21st. Century introductions, which are bred to perform well on their own roots, which they do for me, and I am satisfied. Still, I am pretty much of the opinion that even 21st. Century grafted HTs will grow bigger, produce more flowers, and outperform own root of the same varieties, growing side by side.

The older, pre-1990 HTs, were bred to perform on root stocks, not necessarily on their own roots.

I would advise you to try only grafted HT roses if the variety was introduced in the last century and own root HT varieties if they are current century introductions, but when a choice is available, opt for grafted regardless of their era.

For example: I always wanted to grow Pope John Paul II, but the reports were that it liked heat, mild winters, and wimped in the North if own root, which was all I could get, until I finally got two, PJP II grafted on Dr. Huey. They are beauties, winter tender, not extremely vigorous, but abundant bloomers. That's 6 years ago, and 30" tall by season's end, these recent years. If I got my PJP II at first on their own roots, I believe that they would have died out years ago.

Moses

I agree that not all mid 20th century HTs do not do well on their own roots. Here are two pics of my Cl Peace, which was bred in France in the late 1930s, and introduced in the US in 1945. Mine is a rooted cutting of one which we believe was planted in our garden in the late 1940s or early 1950s.

Jacqueline that is the nicest Peace I have ever seen.

If you want a super vigorous HT on it's own roots, Kords has a HT called Souv. de Baden Baden, Pink Perfection. I take care of a small public garden and planted one 5 yrs ago. It's a monster.

dianela7bnorthal - I have read that roses which were multiplied by the millions by being mass cloned & grafted onto rootstock for decades, like Peace, sometimes "decline in commerce". Many people have been surprised at how nice mine is - it might be because it has only been cloned once since it was originally planted in our garden 70-75 years ago. It makes me understand why there was a huge fuss when Peace was introduced. It is a good reason to try and get cuttings from old, old nice plants, like the rose rustlers do.

Jackie