Been going thru it too. Been rehabbing my room. Took it down to studs. Sometimes I wonder if 1 or 2 Tradesmen just isnt enough for the job. I got stuff to fix around the windows before I can drywall

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/homeowners-guide-to-hiring-qualified-tile-installer

Really wish tile was warm on my feet

“one bidded the job at $9500 to redo the shower and tile floor.”

Well, yeah. That’s easily believable for work that will meet industry standards. A standard 3 piece hall bath starts at 20K after all. You’ll end up paying way bmote thannthat because that has to be ripped out, and then you have to hire the right guy. The one who you thought cost too much.

😳 definitely no red guard and unsure if a plastic barrier was used. I’m gonna have to asked him ASAP instead of waiting for him. This is a complete disaster. I shouldn’t have paid him as much as I did! And for him to want another 10k.

Thank you Beth for those photos. I just emailed him asking. Does a vapor barrier need to be put in place in the entire bathroom or just the shower? It looks like the red guard in photo was painted everywhere in the photo.

redgard is often applied to the flooring as well depending on what type of bathroom it is.

The waterproofing membrane is usually applied to every wall in the shower. (not so much the shower floor)

I personally have done showers w/o it, but I've done the plastic sheeting behind it to protect any water intrusion from the studs. Either is correct and Durock specifies so.

I don't know how much money you've given him, or what he's done, what's he supposed do, etc.

why is he asking for more money? Was there no contract w/this bid? do you have any paperwork that states what he's to do?

Is there any way to prove that he did the vapor barrier? I mean, what if he says yes merely because you're now questioning him?

How was the shower floor done? any pics? was there a subfloor, liner, mud bed (w/proper slope towards drain)

basically looks like this

and then the mortar/mud pack goes down on that

The slope is 1/4" for every foot. put a level on the shower floor. how much slope is there?

regardless, this shower is a tear out. If you can prove it wasn't waterproofed correctly, then he should reimburse you for everything. (good luck with that).

(iN fact, when they do demo, carefully take pictures of every step so you can document the lack of waterproofing)

This alone is just a joke. I mean, what is this???? it's supposed to be attached to the tile. do you know how much water will get in there, behind the tile and ultimately ruin your studs??

Does he actually think this is standardized work? acceptable work?

what about this? why were the ends of these tiles on the left cut and the tiny triangle inserted? why didn't he just cut the end of the tile at a 45? He did it on the top portion.

you know why? because he messed up or didn't know how so he tried to cover his mistake.

He should be ashamed of taking your money for a job like this. The guy is a hack and a thief.

This is why I said to have an actual tile expert inspector come out and write down every incorrect thing that he can find. You can then present this to your guy and tell him to reimburse your cost, or you're calling the contractors board to file a complaint (is he even licensed?) or filing a small claims court case.

I wouldn't pay him another dime.

Wow. Wow. Wow. I’m just kind of speechless 😶. In all honesty I would not trust this guy to answer honestly about the water proofing. The last thing he is going to. Do is admit he didn’t use any. Cease work. Have a true pro come in and gut the room and start over. Take the original guy to small

claims court and get back whatever you can. If you did any of this on a credit card have the credit card company fight the charges. Last I would report him to the attorney general and BBB. He should not qualify for a license. This is criminal!

Because there are myriad ways of constructing a shower, don’t even get into it with this guy over things you don’t have expertise in either (like waterproofing, which can be done more than just the two ways that were mentioned). Just ask him to tell you what materials SPECIFICALLY and what method SPECIFICALLY he used. Period. And then come tell us.😉

Btw, if he used drywall in the shower (which it looks like he did), that alone would be grounds for a complete tear out—unless he used Kerdi waterproofing membrane over top of it, which clearly he did not..

We had a signed contract. He is licensed bonded and insured. The contract states that the remaining 30% of the balance plus any additional expenses is to be paid plus upon completion. We messed up and paid nearly all of it prior to completion. The estimate was very basic. Excavate floor, fit window, tile shower etc. Going through this experience I now know to have everything spelled out. It was a cash deal and to date we have paid $33k, Upon his completion of the bathroom and adding two exterior doors he came to us with a $10k bill. I am afraid since the contract was so basic he can come at me saying, "Well, it wasn't in the contract".

We got a bid from another contractor to fix the tiling in the shower and the floor but I don't really know what else he didn't do. I'll included some more photos of his work.

I added more photos of the job. What do you think?

You got ripped off, Jaclyn. That sucks and I’m really sorry that happened to you. Time to contact an attorney and plan your next steps.

You shouldn’t see any framing from the exterior. It should be covered by siding and trim.
You should have treated lumber on top of the foundation.
The window trim and siding should be level and plumb.
The tile layout is unacceptable.
The hand shower cut out isn’t going to keep water out of the wall.
It appears he used thinner to attach the tike directly to the green board (drywall). Not waterproof.
Why is the barn door track attached to raw wood? Why did he use gold grabber screws? Why didn’t he install trim around the door to cover the foam, etc.

I just got ripped off with a builder for our entire home.... it happens all of the time. I am in the middle of it too and can tell you DO NOT GIVE HIM MORE MONEY. Fire him immediately and find someone else. You will likely pay more and the new skilled tradesman will likely show you things you didn't even notice and you will also pay more for those things... it's worth it to quit while you are ahead. If you have to pay more to someone else, keep track and go to small claims court to get that money back. (Or big court).

I read about all of the tile stuff and have been reading up on what needs to be done in my bathrooms since I am now the GC for the last 3 months.

Yes, RedGuard or Waterproofing behind the cement board because it is water resistant, not water-PROOF. I wouldn't let him back in my home.

@Danny Johnson So treated lumber needs to be on

top of the foundation? Im guessing this is wrong too?

Looks like it. R317.1 is the building code section. Was this project permitted?

Jaclyn, do not pay him another dime. Do not let him do anymore work.
Hire a private building inspector to come out and give u a report of everything that was done ( besides the shower unless he’s an expert on that too). Have him give you detailed notes about all the work this GC has done incorrectly.
Have him or hire a tile contractor ( call a really good tile store and speak to the manager. Ask the manager who tiled his house. Get that name. Have that tile guy come out for a report. Show him all of the pictures ).
Now when you get all these reports together go back to this hack you hired and tell him to fix it like it’s supposed to be done( and u will have an inspector on site for that) or he can refund what you’ve paid him.
By law you’re supposed to give them the opportunity to fix it. If he doesn’t, call the state licensing board and open a a complaint against his license. 30K is a lot of money. You might talk to a lawyer about that aspect ( this is if the report comes back that many things are wrong and he won’t fix them).

Either way you need the inspection report. So call someone tmrw. Be ready to present the evid to this guy and tell him what you expect.
I wouldn’t let him redo the shower and you can tell him that. Tell him to refund that portion and you’ll hire someone else. If not, report him and make a complaint to the state board of contractors.

Sorry this is happening to you. Here's what I recommend. Stop all work now: don’t pay anymore.

Hire a certified tile professional to come and do an inspection and give you a written report detailing everything that was done wrong and what it will cost to fix

it. If you have “in-progress” pictures, show them to the tile pro. And post them here.

Here are 2 organizations with search tools on their websites.
www.tile-assn.com
Click on “find a contractor” and enter your zip code. Let the miles radius be fairly large, like 50 miles or so. The excellent tile pro that built all my bathrooms was on that site in my area, but about 40 miles away bc he was near downtown and I’m in a suburb.
www.ceramictilefoundation.org
This site has lots of good information on it. I didn’t find my contractor on this site, but a lot of people have told me that they had luck with it.
Here’s where you click to find a contractor:
www.ceramictilefoundation.org/find-certified-tile-installers
Also, if you are a nerd like me and you like to read, you could download a digital version of the TCNA handbook. It’s less than $40. It’s over 600 pages, but you don’t have to read the whole thing. Read the introduction (about 50 pages) and then read the tub/shower chapters. You can skip all the other chapters such as swimming pools, etc. Reading this helped me to learn about the process and industry standards for water proofing and tile installation; it helped me to ask more informed questions, and helped a lot in my meeting with the contractor who messed up my shower.
www.tcnatile.com/products-and-services/publications.html
After the pro you hire for the inspection gives you his written report of all the things done wrong, have a business meeting with the contractor at the worksite and discuss all the problems. If it needs to be completely redone, ask them to do that, at their expense. They will either agree, in which case you give them a chance to redo it, or they will refuse, in which case they are effectively quitting. Confirm with them that if they don’t attempt to redo it, they are basically quitting; get them to acknowledge that fact. Don’t pay any remaining balance. After the meeting follow up with an email documenting that conversation, and asking for acknowledgement, so that in the future they can’t claim that you illegally fired them. In that email, say something like “We were so disappointed that you decided to quit the project rather than fix the [ list of problems ]. Because we have to have the shower rebuilt, we are requesting a refund in the amount of [$$$] in order for us to hire a new contractor and for the purchase of replacement materials.” They will probably respond to that email to refuse you the refund, but at least then you have an electronic paper trail that shows that you did not fire them illegally, that they quit instead. You can then go to small claims or district court to sue them if you want, but that’s a real PITA.
In the scenario where they agree to redo it, give them a chance. Take pictures of the demo process so you can see the layers under the tile. Also take pictures twice a day (at lunch break, and in the evening) of every step of the rebuild, including all the supplies and tools. Post them here. When/if they mess it up again (and maybe have the inspector come out a second time), then you can legally fire them in most states. That’s how it is in TX where I am. If you want to know for sure you can look up your state’s statues online and read the construction laws. If you aren't sure and you don't want to read the laws, just assume that you have to give them a chance to fix first before firing them. After you fire them, ask for a refund and hire a real pro to start over. Consider hiring the person you hired to inspect.
Sorry this is happening to you. It happened to me. It's far too common.

Tiling job is bad, the exterior work is atrocious. Redoing either is likely to be costly.

Agree Peter...and not redoing will also be costly!

@AJCN thanks for that information. I used those website to find a tile expert. Once is coming out tomorrow.

@Beth Sethi How do I search for a private inspector? Building inspector?

His "admin" emailed me back and said this about waterproofing,

"I will start by addressing your questions in regards to the bathroom waterproofing. Assuming you’re referring to the job progress photos that Mark sent to you, what you see is only a series of photos and does not reflect every step from start to finish. What you see in the bathroom photo is only the thin-set mud in progress to fit the shower shelf. All materials used in the bathrooms were designed specifically for bathroom install and created to be waterproof and sealed. You can be assured that all standard install steps and proper precautions were taken for the install of both bathrooms and are properly waterproofed and sealed." I asked exactly how was the shower waterproof and if there was a vapor barrier or redguard/wp membrane.

You need to ask for more detail.

Pictures 10 & 11 from your post show tile being set on bare cement board. The tile work in the other pics is atrocious. The fact that he has his "admin" reach out via email plus the crap work above, you do not need more detail you need to find another tile setter, gut this mess and accept the fact that this is a complete do over.

@millworkman thank you. He is a complete nut. In the same email the admin sent she asked when I will be meeting Mark at the bank for final payment and if we aren’t paying in cash they will happily use a credit card but that will incur a 3% fee and no cash discount...

I’ve definitely accepted the fact it’s a do over. I responded to the email with photos and asking when he is going to redo and finish the project. I don’t think he will actually come back to do anymore work but I have to give him the opportunity to fix it. I plan on sending a letter of intent to file a complaint on Monday. I will also be looking for a lawyer to help get our money back. An expert tiler comes over today and I’m currently looking for a house inspector!

Thanks to everyone for their input!!! It has really helped me out! I appreciate it very much!

the admin still didn't answer your waterproofing question, just assured you it was done? garbage. they prob don't know and don't want to get caught in a lie on a paper trail.

You'll know for sure when they demo the shower. take pics of each step to document how things were (not) done.

since we know Redgard wasn't on the front, there will have to be a vapor barrier behind. If there is nothing but your studs, then you have your answer.

But the seams still weren't taped and mudded, and we don't know anything about the shower pan and if the plastic liner was taken up the sides.

as for a home inspector, you might reach out to someone at city hall or try Yelp.

Did you go over to the john bridge tile forum? Those guys will give you all the details you need.

it's easy enough to register, then just go to advice forum, post the question and a few pics. If you give them a city they may be able to link you up w/someone.

please keep us posted on what transpires. I really hope you get it taken care of. so sorry you have to incur the extra cost.

Don’t pay him another dime and fire him. And be grateful it’s not your entire house.

do not pay any more money.
get a price to fix/finish job properly from someone else..my wetroom is mess and I paid all the money day it was finished..Big mistake!
waiting on new person to do job properly, an expensive lesson for me

I can’t say for sure based on the photos, but it looks like he skimmed the green board (drywall) with thin set and then set the tile. I don’t see cement board or waterproofing. I circled the area in the photos I’m referring to. Is that not green board peeking through?

It looks like the circled areas are green board (drywall). I don’t see cement board or waterproofing. I just see green board with a skim coat of thin set.

Danny brought up a good point. at some point Jaclyn said cement board was used. but based on the pics, it looks like green board. don't know if he switched it up inside the shower.

Jaclyn, see this green board in the pic? If that same green board was used in the shower, it's an automatic fail. The stuff is not rated for a shower, unless they're using a Kerdi or similar waterproofing system. (and you'd know because it's expensive) .

If he put that green board in the shower, and tiled on top of that w/no waterproofing, that shower is doomed to fail.

Again, document every single step during demo. make notes of what was found, take lots of pictures, and document everything. you'll need it for court

From here on out I'd have all convo's via text or email so that you can have copies of what he's told you.

Even if Kerdi is used, it is to be used on regular drywall, not greenboard

Lyndee, no. False. Even Kerdi approves of it. drywall, green board, cement board,,,,it's fine.

here, copied from their install manual:

In addition, KERDI is installed over the solid backing (e.g., gypsum board, cement backerboard, etc.) on walls, creating a fully waterproof and vapor- tight enclosure.

Solid Backing Materials

Gypsum wallboard – ASTM C1396/C1396M
Cementitious backer unit – ANSI A118.9 or ASTM C1325 Fiber-cement backerboard – ASTM C1288
Fiber-reinforced water-resistant gypsum
backerboard – ASTM C1278
Coated glass mat water-resistant gypsum backerboard – ASTM C1178 Portland cement mortar – ANSI A108.1B
Concrete
Masonry

personally I'd never use anything but cement board in the shower, (w/Kerdi).

showers were easier back in the day when the old lath/mortar were used to set tiles. Even after 80 years, those showers are still in great shape.

Mold Resistant Green board mold resistant was definitely used in the shower. Oh boy what a huge mess!

No need to add to your pain. Just to say sorry... And I hope for a happy end to this!

You have some of the best pros here advising you..

jaclyn, that green board is fine for outside the wet areas, but shouldn't be used in the shower itself. Right there is proof enough that he messed up your shower and that it's not waterproofed. That alone should void any further payment, and should also be used for refund in order to have the shower rebuilt.

Cement backer board such as Durock is best used for tile in highly wet applications such as shower stalls, with greenboard and other water-resistant drywall panels kept only to high-humidity areas. Greenboard's paper facing alone does not inhibit mold growth. The facing must be treated with mold-resisting agents.

IS GREEN BOARD WATERPROOF? Green board is water-resistant – it is not waterproof. Green board is highly efficient in bathrooms and kitchens, where moisture is frequently in the air, but it is not the drywall that should be set behind tile in your shower or any other areas where it can come in direct contact with water.

"Except drywall and green board both are prohibited by their manufacturers from being installed in wet areas."

Exactly JuneKnow and been that way for 20 plus years.

I'm sorry. What a nightmare.

Does anyone know of any construction attorneys in Portland, Oregon? Or any attorney's that that handle cases like this?

Following.

Jaclyn, don't know of any attorneys up there.

Did you already file a complaint through the state contractors board?

be aware that he might put a mechanics lien on your property for no payment.

Make sure when you speak to him it's through emails or texts.

BTW, here is a picture of what happens w/greenboard in a shower. yes the black is mold.

as for the Kerdi issue, I would never use those two other substrates in a shower. don't know why installers are still doing it. (And we are talking about using the sheeting like Kerdi over those substrates. Obviously drywall or green board alone, should never be used to set tile in a shower or wet area.

"Except drywall and green board both are prohibited by their manufacturers from being installed in wet areas."

The was meant exactly how it appears. But it doesn't specify if using it under a product like kerdi is ok. This is what the below quotes are referring to.

per the Tile King, John Bridge and he is clarifying the wording:

Drywall with a waterproof membrane on it's surface is not banned. Plain drywall under tile in wet areas is banned. I know the wording. I also know the intent. Schluter, to my knowledge, is the only company still recommending drywall, and it's fine.

One of the other board members at John Bridge forum, had this to say about it (the usage of drywall and green board)

I don't recall that it was the drywall manufacturers who lobbied for this change when it was made. If they now find themselves in favor of the restriction as it's currently written, I'd actually be surprised. If they were in favor of not using their products as backing material for direct bonding of tile in such wet areas, I could certainly understand that, of course, but their being opposed to the use of their products behind an appropriate waterproofing membrane would surprise me. Following the industry political tide would more likely explain such opposition at this juncture.

In my discussion with at least two of the direct bonded waterproofing membrane manufacturers on your list above, other than the one with the ICC ER, in a candid moment they said they'd be quite comfortable for their product to be applied over gypsum drywall in a standard shower application.

I still maintain that the change in usage recommendation and code wording is not in line with the original intent, which was to stop the direct bonding of ceramic tile to gypsum wallboard in wet areas. And I'm certainly in favor of not doing that.

__________________
CX

https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=128137&highlight=green+board+under+kerdi&page=2

Ok, lets put the Kerdi issue to rest.

Hi all,

Quick update our mediation with the CCB is today at 11am! I have learned a whole lot from you guys and wanted to thank you all again! I'm nervous about the mediation but with all the knowledge you guys have provided me I feel more confident about talking to him. I actually think I might know more about building a bathroom than he does. We have lawyer lined up and will sue him if he doesn't pay up by the end of the month.

Good for you! Way to stand up for yourself. I want to wish you luck. I know how nerve wracking it can be to sit in a mediation session. Remember: he's the one who's BSing his way through this. Be polite but VERY firm. No mud slinging. Mediators reward 'civility'. S/he who throws the most mud gets punished for bad behaviour. I know that all too well. If contractor keeps throwing mud at you just smile sweetly and think, "This is being seen by the mediator! What a wingnut!"

I am a firm believer in the homeowner being there to watch the work being done if at all possible. This looks like an amateur tile installation to me. YOU are the one paying for this and YOU are entitled to a proper job done by a licensed contractor. In tiling, seams should be the same everywhere. Even when I have work done by a contractor I know, I am there to watch. If I don’t like something, I step right in to have corrections made before everything is, literally, fixed in concrete. If you don’t hire a site supervisor (I never have), you have no one but yourself to look out for your interests.

Well he didn't show up! We now will proceed with a lawsuit.

Oh my goodness! What a mess... so sorry.

It is contractors like these that make it difficult for the good guys out there..

Best of luck!

Jaclyn, it's actually good for you that they didn't show up. That happened to us. We had a contractor trash our bathroom and then they quit when we asked about waterproofing. Months later they sued us saying that we fired them illegally. We had to respond to their suit against us. At a certain point in the process we asked the local justice court (small claims) to elevate the suit to the county level (district court). The quit-GC didn't show up for that hearing, so the judge threw their suit completely out, and our counter- suit went up to the county level. That level requires mediation, and the quit GC didn't show up. The judge sent the quit-GC a threatening letter saying he would face possible arrest and fines if he didn't show up again. All that stuff was in the records, so when the suit finally made it to court, it made the quit-GC look bad even before one word was spoken in court.

Tip about court: see if your tile expert can testify as your expert witness. Ours did, and it made such an impression on the judge, I wouldn't be surprised if she hires him herself. We did the whole legal process ourselves, but it would have been a lot easier to have a lawyer. Get all your paperwork, photographs, emails, text messages, etc organized. Make a big 3 ring binder and when it's time to go to court, you'll want to give a copy of all of that to the judge. We won our suit, but collecting is another matter. If you win, hopefully your lawyer can help you with that.

How did this all turn out?

Hi everyone who chimmed in over 2 years ago. If it wasn’t for you guys we wouldn’t have seeked legal action.

We just had our depositions today December 13, 2022. The contractor repeatedly lied, couldn’t recall and apparently has had a lot of personal issues over the years 🤡. Our trial date is set for January 17 2023. We have a great case a hardass attorney and lots of experts. We can’t wait until this mess is over.

We recently tried to sell this house we added the bathroom to but we couldn’t sell it because of all these issues!!! We are beyond frustrated and want to move on with our lives, this bathroom and that house.

Again, thank you everyone for your input. We learned so much and now know what to look for in a contractor and at a home remodel site. I really can’t express how thankful I am to have had all your input.

thanks for the update jaclyn. so sorry you have to go through all of this! I imagine the cost you spent to do these must have been up there for it to be worth this drawn out legal battle. It sounds like you'll be reimbursed.

As for selling, can't you give a credit so that the new owners can finish it after purchasing?