And before people start jumping in and saying I’m a cheapskate and hired a hack - that’s not the case. This renovation is expensive. The job was bid with other projects. It also is NOT my contractor that we’re dealing with right now.

Thank you.

EDIT - It’s important to explain that my SO thinks that I’m on Houzz WAY TOO MUCH. He makes fun of me a lot about how much time I’ve spent on this forum with my new “friends.” So, when I started explaining why I thought I that the shower pan was wrong - he IMMEDIATELY made a comment about my source being HOUZZ. I tried to explain that there are many experts on Houzz. I told him that I’m relying on those experts - not just opinions from non-professionals (although there are MANY non-professionals on Houzz who know the correct way to install a shower due to all the threads where it’s been discussed).

I also explained that it’s not IF water gets down to the liner and trapped - it’s WHEN. I explained that tile/grout isn’t waterproof.

The reason for so much panic is that I have a serious disease called systemic mastocytosis. Basically, my mast cells attack other systems in my body. Many things can trigger an attack and send me to the ER. MOLD is one of them. STRESS is another.

I don’t want to give the wrong impression of my SO. He’s a WONDERFUL man. He’s RIDICULOUSLY busy right now with work (going to office at 5 a.m. and leaving at 8-9 p.m.). He’s tired/stressed + I’m tired/stressed = NOT GOOD.

Couple resources: check Oatey's installation instructions, you'll notice a preslope in step 2. Not following instructions = no warranty from manufacturer.

https://www.oatey.com/products/oatey-pvc-shower-pan-liner-1982292245

TCNA spec is B415-20. Not sure whether you need more details, or is that enough?

Edit: just found the IRC section: P2709.3

How is that piece of cement board held down on top of the curb? The photo is a bit fuzzy so I won’t yell ‘nails are penetrating the waterproofing’

The cement is going to hold a lot of moisture. I hope some tile experts chime in.

Yeah, the personal details such as "who owns the house" isn't helpful...

The spec's you are looking for is the TCNA handbook. It's not "code" - so know that.

Just a tip, is good to include "according to manufacturers instructions" and "according to applicable TCNA Guidelines" in your scope of work so you can avoid "I always do it this way" arguments.

@Stax - I am not puffing out my chest and saying that I’m a lawyer. I typed this very quickly so it maybe it reads that way. I wouldn’t ever play the “lawyer card” - nothing good would come of it. After I hit the submit button, I knew someone would comment about the attorney thing. I ONLY added that to explain the argument between me and my SO - and the need for actual LAW to back up what’s correct and what’s incorrect. It’s definitely not because I think it makes me look I’m cool or smarter than everyone else.. I was just trying to explain things. Sorry if it came across otherwise.

Also - that’s why I need the actual law - because I’m an attorney - this not my area of expertise. I have no formal education or training in this area. I’ve only recently learned what goes into constructing a shower from reading discussions on Houzz. While Houzz has been an invaluable resource - I can’t use it to explain the actual codes/regs involved to my SO.

If we are going to discuss this with the subcontractor/employee, we need to explain why we have questions. FYI - both my SO and I are business attorneys. Our jobs are to negotiate the terms of transactions = give and take on both sides + being reasonable. Unlike trial attorneys, “winning” for us = reaching an agreement. That‘s how my professional life is - and that has carried over into my personal life as well.

If what’s been done is fine = no problems = I will be HAPPY/THRILLED/OVERJOYED.

The reason I am so frantic about it right now is because I HAVE to be due to my disease. It has GREATLY affected my life. I didn’t even know what was wrong with me until recently. I just kept collecting new idiopathic diseases - no known cures. I will never be “cured” - I am learning how to try to “manage“ my health issues.

This is why I’m upset. I cannot have some secret mold ”hiding“ in my shower pan. I was bedridden for almost FOUR YEARS. I completely lost my life. Unfortunately, that’s not an exaggeration. I’ve only been able to move back into my home about 9 months ago after an extended absence. I cannot go back to that - and if mold/bacteria/etc. become airborne, its “game over” for me. I spent a lot of money on an air purification system in order to try to help manage my health. I had all my carpet ripped out and replaced with hardwood. I’ve replaced all furniture - other than wood/marble/etc. Anything that could have something trapped in it prior to the air purification has been either donated or thrown out.

I also only put in that I own it in order to explain the situation. He’s paying for it - but I own it. Just wanted to explain since we aren’t married. I assumed someone would ask me who has hired the contractor - he did - but I own the house. That’s all.

If I’m WRONG - please tell me. I will be very relieved!

Close ups of curb?

If you looking for a code, you have IPC code in regard to liners.

417.5.2 Shower Lining

Floors under shower compartments, except where prefabricated receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made watertight utilizing material complying with Sections 417.5.2.1 through 417.5.2.6. Such liners shall turn up on all sides not less than 2 inches (51 mm) above the finished threshold level. Liners shall be recessed and fastened to an approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25 mm) above the finished threshold. Liners shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance, making a water-tight joint between the liner and the outlet. The completed liner shall be tested in accordance with Section 312.9.
Exceptions:

1. Floor surfaces under shower heads provided for rinsing laid directly on the ground are not required to comply with this section.
2. Where a sheet-applied, load-bearing, bonded, waterproof membrane is installed as the shower lining, the membrane shall not be required to be recessed.

You need a pre-slope so that water that penetrates the mortar bed drains properly through the weep holes in the drain. The tile/grout on the top surface is not waterproof. The mortar bed under the tile isn't waterproof. The PVC liner is waterproof. The illustration in the pan liner instructions makes it very clear.

I don't know about code in your area. What I can generally tell you is that most code incorporates "according to manufacturers' instructions" - and thus not installing it according to instructions is contrary to code.

The TCNA is also not code - but if you end up in front of a judge or an arbitration body, and the tile contractor didn't do it per TCNA, then things won't go well for the contractor.

Dial down the drama -- from 9 to about 2 -- and explain to your contractor that you understand he's done it his way in the past, but this time it needs to be done as per TNCA and the pan liner manufacturer's instructions. Don't talk code, or law or anything else - because you don't know what code is. Any contractor being explicitly called out and politely told to "Do it by the book" should understand the implied "or else..." part.

If you looking at how to do a curb, you can refer to this.

One last comment - I need the law/codes/guidelines in order to explain everything to my SO So he will jump in and help with this. I’m not trying to get “armed” in order to attack the contractor or his subs/employees. I think our contractor is amazing. I’ve made that comment in a previous post.

Sorry - I’ve been trying to purchase a digital copy of the TCNA handbook. For some reason - it’s not working.

@HALLETT & Co. - I also raised the issue of nails penetrating the liner. I took some photos last night but they aren’t the best. I’ll go take some new ones right now!

Here are some other odd areas around the curb:

I missed this one in my photo - looks a little low. LOL

Also - I only see Thinset up here. I also looked in the garage where other materials are - I don’t see any sand. My understanding is that sand is mixed with pc - I’ve read a few different ratios on John Bridge - 4:1/5:1/6:1.

If there wasn’t any sand mixed in, won’t that create another place for water to be trapped (between tile and mortar)?

@Jake The Wonderdog - I wanted to find the building code sections to send to my SO - that‘s why I referred to needing code. I did also need the specs. Also, our contract does expressly refer to all work being completed in accordance with all applicable laws, codes, regulations, specifications, etc. I also drafted language that expressly referred to TCNA guidelines being followed (due to all the discussions I’ve read on Houzz related to tile issues).

Additionally, in my jurisdiction, there is case law which provides that there is “implied in every contract for work or services, a duty to perform it skillfully, carefully, diligently, and in a workmanlike manner.” Also, the Consumer Protection Act in my state of residence, applies to consumer transactions, including the construction of a home, or any remodeling thereof. The statute also provides for the recovery of attorney’s fees - which is important because many of these contracts do not contain this language in the default section.

Again, I only provided the information about owning the house because I wanted to explain the situation - not married/SO paying for renovation and engaging contractor. While he’s writing the check, I own the property - and my property is damaged if the work isn’t performed in accordance with laws. I’m not sure why it was offensive to people - but I apologize again. I was PANICKING when I started this thread. I also was typing ridiculously fast because I had been told that the guy was on his way back over to the house - to continue with the work. I needed to find some answers as fast as I could. If I would have known that he was t going to show up, I would have taken time to find the applicable codes/specs/etc before starting a discussion on Houzz. I don’t understand why this information bothered some people - but it did. As I’ve explained, the purpose of my post initially was to find the applicable law so I could share it with my SO. I needed him to be involved because - even though I own the house - he’s writing the check. I apologize.

@Mint tile Minneapolis -

You NAILED IT!

It was dropped off sometime earlier today.

When I saw it a couple hours ago, I assumed it was just for the shower walls. My SO called a little while ago - and told me that the subcontractor told him not to worry because he wasn’t finished - and would be adding a liquid membrane to the floor!!

FYI - My SO read some of the stuff I’ve been sending to him - and looked up the building codes - and realized that my concerns are legitimate.

You need to stop your contractor now.

It doesn't need to be ugly, and please try to keep the emotion and personal stuff out of it if you can.

It appears from the photos that in addition to the lack of pre-slope he has penetrated the pan liner with fasteners below the area that is allowed.

It's so much better if you put a stop to it now and re-do it rather than get any further into it - because then you are talking a complete rip out.

The Red Guard may be for the walls and such - but it's not a fix for what's been done already.

Again, just calmly say, "We need to back up, and re-do this base completely by the book". Put in the pre-slope, no fasteners below the area allowed, slope the curb correctly, etc.

Be sure you are taking photos as work is being done.

@Jake The Wonderdog - you are right!!! That’s exactly what I said to my SO when all of this started. I almost ripped up the deck mud yesterday when I saw it. It was wet - would have been easier to remove than it’s going to be now.

It kind of felt like it was because I am a woman - he acted much differently when my SO asked some questions.

I wish my contractor was here. When he called to tell us that he was going to be heading out of town due to his father’s passing (very unexpected), he told us to call with any issues. There is no way I’m going to call him - relative to what he’s dealing with, this is nothing.

I am a pretty calm person by nature. My reaction to all of this was greatly exasperated due to my SO basically dismissing everything I was explaining to him. Last night, he actually told me to simply stop worrying about it - and to stay off Houzz!! He is a great guy - but he wasn’t taking my concerns seriously.

It’s going to be an “uncomfortable” conversation - but it will definitely be calm. My emotions weren’t really directed at the situation (it’s still fairly early in the process and can be remedied) - they were directed at my SO!!

UPDATE: I just spoke directly with the employee - I think that there was a little bit of a misunderstanding between him and my SO (language + my SO has only a very basic understanding of how showers are installed).

He is not installing a clamping drain - he is using a Kerdi flange drain. When I went into the garage this morning, I found rolls of Kerdi. His plan was to run the Kerdi on the floor + 5 feet up the walls. He was then going to finish the walls up to 7ft with RedGard.

We just talked and he is now going to only use the Kerdi on the walls of the shower.

He told me that he told my SO that he was installing a flange drain + the Kerdi membrane + liquid membrane. I’m not sure why my SO told me that there would be another membrane PLUS another layer of deck mud . . .

I realize that he could have run out and purchased the Kerdi supplies yesterday morning after speaking with my SO. However, he installed the Kerdi drain a few days ago. . .

I appreciate everyone’s help. If there’s something else that I’ve missed here, please let me know. I also want to thank you for all the prior information that’s been included in so many past comments. I read so many posts where the OP was simply asking about the tile installation - and wound up discovering that his/her shower had not been waterproofed correctly. While the extra knowledge I learned caused me a great deal of stress over the last couple of days, if he actually would have been installing a clamping drain with no preslope under the PVC, I wouldn’t have known that it was wrong before joining Houzz.

My SO also said to send his apologies to everyone - he feels horrible about causing me to PANIC and stress.

I’ve never understood mixing systems. Pick one and go with it (I know that is what’s happening now)

"He is not installing a clamping drain - he is using a Kerdi flange drain"

Your photos show pretty clearly that this is not the case :(

Agree with Mint, it's time to stop, take a breather and make a plan with someone who knows what they are doing.

I will STOP. NOTHING has been done since Thursday. I will let him know that he shouldn’t plan to be here on Monday afternoon. My plan was to call Schluter first thing on Monday morning to verify things. I posted the above update in order to verify what he’s told me. The PVC liner on the subfloor made still feel ”uneasy” - the only way for me to know if I’m being told the truth is to call Schluter AND ask all of you . . .

Hopefully, my contractor will be back in town Monday night or on Tuesday also so we can discuss the entire installation.

Trust me - I am listening. I don’t have the expertise to know the whether the part of the drain that has been installed already is part of a Kerdi flange drain - it’s sitting underneath a plastic cap currently. I haven’t been searching the Internet looking for photos of one. I planned on finding out from Schluter.

Thanks!

Adding to the previous errors accurately pointed out above. You do not install a bonded system (Kerdi, Redgaurd etc.) over a existing liner. This will create moisture issues between barriers.

I did not notice required blocking between studs behind liner. (may be the photo)

There is one proven fact. You can do something wrong for 20 years and it's still wrong.

You are clearly being lied to about the drain.

If needed. Reach out to the NTCA and request a referral to a consultant in your area. 601-939-2073

Following.

@Creative Tile Eastern CT - thanks for the phone number. I was also very confused about the two waterproof liners. My understanding based upon what I’ve previously read on the John Bridge Forum, there could be potential issues.

Would you mind elaborating about the possible lack of required blocking? I can post more photos if you let me know exactly what you would need to see. Thanks!

I’m not following all of the details here but assuming it was hot mopped beneath this barrier? I’m sure I’m being redundant with the other comments, but the shower pan should have been pre-sloped. Our last home- master shower pan was sloped, but the curb was not. For 3 years, I used a squeegee to brush the water off the curb after every shower. A little annoying.

@Glee 4 - No hot mopping. The PVC liner was laid flat on the subfloor. A mortar bed was made with deck mud. Next, he used Kerdi for a surface waterproof membrane. So . . .it all has to be ripped out and started over.

Im so glad that I was around to watch what was going on - and that learned the correct way to,waterproof a shower here on Houzz!

Whoa...there is way too much personal information from the original poster, totally not necessary and more than a little weird.

That said, this looks like a disaster in the making, hopefully the job was stopped, no more money paid, and the original contractor (who we also know personal information about, please stop doing that!) has come back and rectified the situation.

Hopefully, lessons learned are NOT to do all the bathrooms at once so there is no working bathroom in the house (seriously?), never continue the work when the person you have contracted with is no longer available (does this really have to be said?), and not to post a whole bunch of personal stuff in your comments, people are trying to help with construction issues, this is not Oprah.

Augusta:

Posters have a right to share as much personal information as they please. You have a right to read it or not.

Hmmm...did I say they did not have the "right"?

It is weird and creepy for someone to post their entire story here...but not as weird and creepy as another person feeling compelled to defend them.

@Augusta Byron - I was extremely upset when I posted this originally. I actually added some of the extra info because I’ve read enough posts on Houzz to know that some things would need to be explained (for example, why my SO was so involved on a project at my house). Also, I provided some details about the situation with my GC because I knew that if I didn’t explain that he was out of town unexpectedly, someone (actually multiple) people would post comments about how I must have hired a hack and selected the cheapest bid. Neither of those two assumptions were correct - so, I wanted to shut that down before it started.

I’ve read MANY posts on here with WAY more personal info than what I provided above - sometimes that info is relevant - and sometimes it’s not.

FYI - I had parts of mutiple bathrooms that each worked done - just not all parts in one complete bathroom - so, I had one working shower + one working toilet - just not in the same bathroom. I’m not an idiot - I wouldn’t ever do that.

Also, anyone who has been doing renovations in the past several months realizes that you have to get things done when the contractors have availability. This is why I had multiple bathroom renovations going on at the same time. I actually am an attorney - a major portion of my practice focuses on commercial real estate development. In both commercial and residential construction projects, general contractors do not “babysit” their employees or their subcontractors. The above issue above would most likely have occurred regardless of whether my GC was here in town on another job or out of town for personal business.

Due to the overwhelming number of renovations occuring right now, when a professional tradesperson (plumber/electrician/tile setter/etc) is available, you have to allow him/her to complete his/her work. If I went by your advice, I would have had to wait several weeks for the electrical work, plumbing and framing to be done (might not even be done yet).

So did you hire a new tile professional?

@HALLETT & Co. - YES! The entire shower was a due over - I truly appreciate the comments your provided. I’m so very thankful to all of the pros who have contributed to the many waterproofing posts here on Houzz over the years. If I hadn’t read so many of these type of comments, I may not have noticed that there was an issue due to the missing presolpe - or the blocking issues.

My shower was rebuilt correctly - a few people over at John Bridge forum helped me keep an eye on the new construction to make sure it was done correctly. I found out from a professional over there (he owns a private business but also does inspections for cities) that around 70% of showers in the U.S. are not built correctly - and many of those pass inspections. That is a bit shocking.

I am just NOW getting tile installed - I hired a professional who is in high demand. I’ve missed having a fully functioning master bathroom (my other bathrooms are up and running) - but I’d rather wait through a long delay vs. having a moldy shower!

Yay, that is great news

Man do I remember customers like this. Enjoying retirement not looking back!

@Mel Damron - so based upon your comment, I’m a difficult customer just because I wanted my shower pan to be built in accordance with the terms of the contract (which required that the work complied with applicable codes???!!??) I actually made this post in order to confirm whether the work had been done correctly or not BEFORE I discussed anything with the subcontractor. Not sure why a customer is labeled as difficult just because I wanted my shower pan to be installed correctly so it would pass an upcoming inspection (and drain correctly when used).

Funny - considering that pros on Houzz + pros on John Bridge Tile Forum all told me that I needed to stop the work immediately because the subcontractor failed to install a pre slope before installing the pvc liner. Also, when my GC returned from out of town, he completely agreed that the sub contractor had failed to install the shower pan correctly.

FYI - I am on great terms with my GC - and have engaged him for upcoming renovations for my kitchen, laundry room, powder room, wine room, staircase, plus adding a covered deck + new patio + firepit in my back yard. I also just gave him a car last weekend for his son. My mom passed away unexpectedly, and my sisters decided that I could do whatever I wanted with her car since I had given it to her for a birthday gift a few years earlier. My two daughters both have cars, and none of my nieces/nephews needed a car. I knew that my GC was looking fir a car for his son - and since he has taken care of me - and does great work - I asked him if he wanted it. It’s not a big deal - but between that and all of the new work he’s doing for me, it doesn’t seem like he would refer to me as a “difficult“ customer.

Not sure why you felt the need to insult me.

"so based upon your comment, I’m a difficult customer just because I wanted my shower pan to be built in accordance with the terms of the contract"

dmac1108, two posts including that one leads me to believe Mel won't even be back. Why waste your breathe responding.

Glad that dude retired. Good riddance. One less hack in the labor pool.

Had this been done with a Pro, using the Schluter "Kerdi" system...there would be little issues here as in screws too low, flat or no preslope, improper liner attachment, etc.

Kerdi only requires ONE sloped mudbed and is a monolithic system. Once the Kerdi is in, you can actually take a shower! Tile only makes it look good.... and yes, I contribute to the John Bridge Forums....

@millworkman - you are 100% correct. I was in a bad mood after not sleeping for a couple days when I responded to that post - wish I hadn’t.

@Stonetech/Avanti Tile - you are absolutely correct - wish I would have decided to wait to move forward on this while my GC was out of town. The entire shower pan was removed. The new one was installed using Kerdi - no preslope!

I’m trying to figure out who you are over on JBF - I’ll have to go check! Since you are a contibutor over there, you may know who I am on that forum (and what I look like bc I have a photo w my profile). I RAN over there to register - and started a similar thread - within a day or so after the above issue began. I received a lot of help - it’s a great forum.

I am "Lazarus" on the JB Forums....