Do you want it to perform like a climber or a largish shrub? That answer determines what to do next. If it's a shrub you desire, you want to begin pruning it to encourage more lower branching and basal breaks so it becomes self supporting with more flowering branches in a bush form. If you desire more of a climbing form, you can train it to stakes or a trellis, interrupting the sap flow to produce flowering laterals along the cane lengths. You can twist it up poles or bend it back on itself in a "hoop" to produce an upright "donut" of flowering laterals. That hoop should be secured to at least one tall stake to keep it from moving in the wind and being damaged.

I just pasted Kim’s mini lesson into my Rose Notebook! Just above his burrito propagation lesson. 😊 Carol

Magpie, I’m doing a ”Yay, new old rose in the garden!” squeal. Carol

Thanks, Carol. We often forget these young canes on a less mature plant aren't permanent. Actually, no cane from any plant is, though some are longer-lived than others. Calvat is going to push larger, thicker, stronger and more vigorous canes with more maturity and those will eventually replace the ones being dealt with now. Why not encourage these to do what the plant wants in the mean time? If you want to enjoy some flowers now, train it and allow it to flower. If you want to force the plant to mature faster, stake the canes and pinch off the buds to force more vegetative growth so it get where you want it faster. If you feel you've made a mistake in training or pruning one (or more) of the canes, don't worry. In a season or two it will produce more canes to replace the "damaged" ones. Just keep it growing happily and it will sustain itself.

Thanks, Kim! Adding paragrah 2 to my notes…. 😁 Carol

Put the pruners away, please. At this point, you have absolutely no idea how much (if any) of that plant is going to come through the winter. It isn't big enough to need restraining pruning, so just leave it for now. Next spring, you start thinking about how you want to train it.

When we started growing roses in the mid-90's, the paper ARE catalog had a nice tutorial on pegging. I've looked for it online several times now, and haven't been able to find it. Does anybody else know what I'm talking about?

What will it do on its own? Become a self supporting shrub, or have a lax climbing habit? (I think I'd prefer the lax habit, tbh).

Tip: Those curved stakes from Gardener’s Supply Catalog keep my drooping roses off the ground. Carol

Yes, Carol, that is exactly it! I've just been surprised I haven't seen it online.

That photo of the naked canes has always impressed me.

@mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY) I never said a thing about pruning. My question was in fact, as you said, how to begin to train it, and when.

Assuming there is not complete die back every year, can a lax rose like like be trained like a climber, with the canes being bent back and forth to produce laterals as well as attaining some height? Or does the pegging shown in the picture above have an advantage over an upright climbing habit?

I know you didn't say anything about pruning, but Kim said a great deal.

IME, you don't train climbers by bending canes back and forth. That just isn't how things work in the real world. The canes are too stiff. There are ramblers that are that bendable, but by far the most flexible rambler I've ever grown was Alexandre Girault who barely bloomed, being barely hardy here.

I have to go do dinner things. Hopefully more later.

Enjoy your dinner. Intersting to hear that the weaving back and forth thing isn't really practical. How does one encourage laterals on a climber that can't be fanned out then, like on a narrow arch? So much still to learn.

It doesn't take a whole lot to interfere with sap flow and produce laterals. Even the simple act of gently twisting it around a vertical stake can induce laterals which will then flower. Plus, you can drive stakes into the ground near the iron rod you wish to bend, and tie it as far as is safe and possible off the vertical. Leave it there a while then revisit it to see what more may be possible. "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree." and that twig doesn't have to be bent in one sitting.

Magpie,

I have fan trained a number of Bourbons with good flower production success. In my experience, many Bourbons that are accidentally left to their own devices kind of fan out and fall over in a big arch(ed mess) all by themselves. Big arching fans with end blooms in the mud. They just naturally sprawl and fling their arms around. Souvenir de la Malmaison and a couple others being exceptions.

Although older canes are stiffer than newer ones, Bourbon canes don’t go rigor mortis overnight, especially on young plants. You’ll notice the stiffening if you check them every few months once the canes are older. For fanning, I begin training when they are long enough to tie easily to the fence. Until then, I prop them up with those magic curved plant stakes (several heights are available for new bands or gallons, older roses and mature moderately sized shrubs). In general, as far as rose training goes, I just start when there’s enough of the plant to do it easily. Path of least resistance seems to get me where I’m going just fine. I also “take the scenic route” when driving. :-) In my experience, you can turn the naturally floppy, arched mess of Bourboness into a good arch rose, too, by simply tying canes to the arch as they grow. When the rose matures, you can untie and swap out chunky older canes for fresher ones and prune to remove the chunkers. I do this every few years when my roses drop loud and cluttered hints, and I happen to have time and energy.

My Bourbons haven’t been nearly as much of a pain in the aardvark to train as say….MAC. (And WHO the heck is it that keeps reinforcing MAC’s ”thornless rose” myth?!) I also arch-trained the Graham Thomas rediscovered Musk Rose. To my surprise and dismay, it stiffened up pretty darn quickly, like instantaneously! It’s really NOT a climber even though books say it is “easily trained” as one. I did prune out hardened older canes as new bendy ones appeared over time, just as Kim suggested in his ”if you make a mistake” comment…because I was wasn’t quick enough with the plant tie tape and I made other mistakes while training my not-so-much-a-climber as a climber. I currently off and on prune out older, thick canes from Blush Noisette and other climbers in my current garden that are now 15-18 years old. As you no doubt well know and Mad Gallica mentioned, your CO winters mean you could lose some canes or cane tips to weather. So, a solid fence or wall might offer some nice protection for a fanned Bourbon.

Carol

my roses were all planted 2019 at the earliest.

ive had to peg a few already because i didnt give them enough space.

im doing the hoop method than kim mentioned with Evelyn and Teasing Georgia. they are responding as intended.

so is Cl Royal America.

ive also wrapped climbers around trees in a barbershop style and that is also working out pretty well.

@portlandmysteryrose Thank you for all that! Hmm, well I sure hope I don't lose too much over winter, at least it's in a protected spot. But of course, it does get quite cold here, and the snow is not consistent. Time will tell I guess (the conclusion of all my threads, apparently).

JC, your climber is so pretty and so beautifully trained! Your neighbors probably stop and take prom photos next to your tree.

Magpie, I’ll bet your MEC Bourbon is going to be great in your zone, whatever way you decide to trick her into more lateral blooms. She’s such a fabulous and romantic old rose! I feel like I’m at Downton Abbey whenever I encounter her! 😊 Carol

@portlandmysteryrose I sure hope so, the photos I've seen on HMF are incredible. Plus it's already one of my favorite roses just because the new growth is a plum color and it stays that color for quite some time, so it's always pretty even without flowers. Thank you all for your suggestions 💙

When it comes to training roses in small spaces, most times it is like trying to fit an elephant in a paper grocery bag. It doesn't work.

Here is a stupid little drawing on laterals. The first drawing is the first year's growth. It is mostly upright. Then those canes bloom, and the flowers bend them over. Then those, bent over canes are the ones that produce the laterals. However, when those laterals bend over, and produce the next generation of laterals, you can get a real mess. So to a certain extent, the training is a way of keeping things somewhat tidy.

Yes and it's quite a bit like espaliering a fruit tree. And, it illustrates the value of selecting the right rose for the right place, and why experimenting with varieties from outside of your climate type can be so "invigorating". This is Austin's "mannerly 5' X 5' shrub, Lordly Oberon", or so reported the Austin catalog of the period. That was for a budded plant in his British garden. This is an own root Lordly Oberon released into the "land of endless summer" SoCal. That wall is just short of 6' tall and the slump stones are over 16" long. Those budding laterals required several more FEET of growth before the flowers opened.

There are some roses that simply hate having their canes bend so far over that their xylem-phloem has to be pushed horizontally and then downwards and STILL work. I've see stems bend over on their own weight, and then die back to the horizontal part.

I've often wished we talked more about the mechanics of different roses in addition to their flowers. (Example: not all roses set blooms the way that apples set fruit, but some do and there's not a thing we can do to change their nature.)

@stillanntn6b I'm not sure i understand your last sentence.

An example: I wish the species rose R. bracteata would make buds more than three inches above the stems. They won't. Bracteata has thorns that redefine vicious prickles and those prickles make it all but impossible to cut the blooms for any use at all.

The big climber Gardenia is loaded with blooms once a year, but the blooms will never be on stems long enough for any use other than in one of he old fashioned "glove" vases.

Apples set fruit on the same spurs year after year. (some people pull the whole spur off when they 'pick' apples) The reason people shake apple trees is that (IMO) that's less damaging to the spurs.