mtvhike, I'm not sure if you're asking should it be a matter of concern for buying the house, or should it be a matter of concern once owning the house.

Houses are sold as is. She could ask if in the summertime it was functioning but in a cold winter location, there's no way to test it now.

Think of it like an old water heater. If a house has one that's 20 years old, you can ask and easily tell if it works normally but you know that something that old is at or beyond it's normal useful life and and know it will need to be replaced much sooner than later. Same would be true of a 15 year old AC system

I'm not sure there's much else to do about it. A new AC system isn't pocket change but older homes always have things that need to be replaced, updated, etc. You know the drill.

There is always a concern when buying a house with older HVAC equipment. A 2005 AC system will be 17 years old in 2022. The equipment should have several more years of life in a northern climate where the AC is used 3-4 months a year and it has had regular maintenance. I believe Carrier was shipping condensers with R410a refrigerant in 2005. If that is true, then a leak repair will not be as expensive if the refrigerant was R22. If there are concerns then ask the seller when was the last time the AC was serviced and see if an HVAC company can inspect it for possible problems.

Two issues... I suspect this system is approaching the end of its useful lifespan (notwithstanding potential lack of use). And its almost certainly an R22 system (only the high end Carrier systems were in the first batch of changeover to R410a), so expensive to maintain ("freon" top ups) and replace (you have to replace the entire system).

Build this into your considerations if you are making an offer.

Unfortunately, this home is 1000 miles away from me, in Winnetka, IL. My daughter had a walk-through with an inspector today and I was on FaceTime with her and asked about the AC units (two outside ones). The current owner only bought the house 18 months ago and is moving to Texas to be with his family, and I doubt any maintenance was done on it, although she could ask.

It’s one of the many things I wish I had taken more seriously into account when I bought my house. (1950/≈2000) Be sure to consider the location of the equipment. Cost is one thing, but the location of one of my air handlers is going to be very problematic.

I have a similar issue with my Sub Zero fridge and freezer. Can’t replace them without essentially doing a kitchen remodel so I keep paying for them to limp along.

Illinois is a low use market for AC, typically 3 months of fairly regular use is about it. 15 years old is an average when it comes to AC equipment replacements. ( I use to live there over 20 years ago)

The obvious problem is if this machine is R22 Freon. Just because it's Carrier, doesn't necessarily mean it's the newer R410a... even if it is R410a... the same will be happening to it as is R22 Freon. At best a few more years, the more liberal run the state probably less. Here in Texas this fun begins in 2025... currently the new equipment with the new refrigerant isn't available just yet. (R454b OR R32)

Ultimately when this AC machine fails (breaks down) the question your daughter will have to face is that if it's worth it to put money into this machine as opposed to buying new. When it does break down it also comes down to what is it that is wrong. Many times (not always) it's a lower cost repair like a fan motor, starting components, maintenance type things.

If it starts leaking Freon, whether it's R22 or R410a doesn't matter all that much... refrigerant leaks are expensive regardless and in most cases equipment replacement is often times required to fix those leaks.

That said... Circa 2021: you could fix a refrigerant leak by replacing the indoor coil and that new coil *could be* leaking again in as few as 3 years or less. (regardless of the name on the box)

In my 27 year career, there has always been refrigerant leaks. It's nothing new. Larger companies I worked for in the past bought refrigerant by the pallet. I can nearly guarantee you that nothing has changed in that regard.

The short answer: It depends what is wrong with it, when you find out it has failed. Not to mention how honest the tech is that you called.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

"The AC part of the HVAC system is a 2005 Carrier. Should that be of concern?"

How the indoor environment of a home is controlled is always a concern. The HVAC system's compressor or air handler may be circa 2005, but the ductwork, insulation, distribution, etc. are likely to be a lot older and may not be well designed or installed properly. If those need major work, consider the additional costs along with that to replace the equipment.

For the record, Carrier started using R-410a in 1996. You can check the nameplate on the equipment to be sure, but there's a pretty good chance a system manufactured in 2005 utilizes R-410a refrigerant (Carrier labeled it "PURON")

For the record, Carrier started using R-410a in 1996.

Yeah, but adoption was slow due to cost. After the proposed cut off in 2010 manufacturer's started shipping R22 Freon condensers dry to circumvent the phase out.

Carrier was the lone mfg, that fought that battle and mostly lost until about 2014 or so when the industry finally realized to move on from R22.

If you can read the equipment sticker still if it's not faded it will tell you what type of refrigerant it uses. The other way would be to call HVAC service as there are ways to figure it out other than the equipment sticker.

What would be a guestimate for a replacement cost, if all the refrigerant-based components need to be replaced? The basic two-story house, with basement, was built in 1952 with a one-story extension, with a crawl space, built later, I'm guessing 2005. I'm assuming prior to 2005 there was no AC, just hot air heat from a gas-fired furnace. Total area 2800 square feet. We need to decide if we should make an issue of this between now and closing on Feb 9. Our offer is a full-price offer with 50% cash down (I will be a co-owner).

I assume you mean a full replacement of the system? You would not just replace certain components on a system that old. Price would vary depending on the company and the options that were presented to you, You could also find out that the current system is oversized or undersized. There are just too many variables to look at to try to get an accurate replacement cost. My advice, get a reputable, well known company to do a thourough look at the current system. Dont take the word of a home inspector as their inspection will not dig deep. Have the company write you a report and you may have a barganing chip to use for negotiation.

Replacing the coil is going to be at least $2000 if the refrigerant is R410a. If it is R22 it is going be more and not worth investing the money into a 17 year old system. Is probably too cold in Winnetka, IL to run the AC and check the refrigerant level. If that is the case I suggest you have money set aside in escrow which will be used to make a repair in needed in the spring when it can be tested. At the very least the furnace should be inspected by an HVAC tech if you have concerns.

Houses right now are are getting full price and above asking offers. The buyer may not want to deal with this and refuse to negotiate.

This is what I do when I buy a home. I get a general home inspection. If there is an area of concern such as the age of the HVAC system, I arrange for a subject matter specialist to look at that area of concern.

Even though it is the middle of winter, a good HVAC guy can tell you a few things about the system. Age, general condition, maintenance, type, general adequacy, etc.

Given the age of the system I would plan on replacement within the next five years. It could limp a long for a while or be completely kaput right now. You just won't know for certain. I would plan on $7,500 in replacement or repair costs in the next few years. Exact numbers are impossible because we don't know the brand, the unit, the size or when it will fail. If it's working right now, you will have a hard time getting any sort of concession from the seller. You will just have to take a chance.

A basic builder grade system (furnace and AC) will start at ~$6000, depending on size. After that, the sky's the limit.

I don't know the names of the parts, I assume the compressor and condenser are the outside component. Anyway, this house has two compressor/condenser units. I don't know if it has two complete separate systems or not, but based on the history of the building (built in 1952 and greatly expanded in 2005), there may be two complete separate systems. So, I guess I should expect up to $15,000 to be spent soon. I like the idea of an escrow account, if the seller would go for it.

See if she is able to get pictures of the indoor and outdoor data plates. Post them here.

It may be the case a second system was added during the expansion in 2005. If there are two condensers then they may not be the same age. If it makes you feel better the Carrier systems installed in my house when it was built in 1983 lasted 25 years. I suppose there were builder grade at the time, but simpler and better built then what Carrier was building around 2005.

I believe Carrier had phased out all R22 equipment by 2008. This is the time period when my neighbor and I were shopping for HVAC equipment. If you do have two systems, then if one fails the second will keep the part of the house comfortable until you get a repair or replacement.

The summer design temperature for all of Illinois is about 90 F degrees. The map shows Winnetka, IL is close to Lake Michigan. The house must get a cool breeze off the lake. I would be more concerned about the furnace(s) making it through the winter.

"So, I guess I should expect up to $15,000 to be spent soon."

It depends on the size of the house and the other work that may be needed to be done. Pricing is regional but this seems on the high side of what to expect. I had a complete replacement (furnace and AC) installed in a relatively high cost of living area for just a shade more than half that. A structure of about 2000 sq feet.

“So, I guess I should expect up to $15,000 to be spent soon.”

The house sounds around same size as mine. Based on the sizes of my condenser units alone (guy didn’t come inside) I was given a ballpark estimate of $7k and $8k for new mechanicals. So yeah, $15k. Note that this estimate was given pre covid / supply chain issues.

LI, NY

"I like the idea of an escrow account, if the seller would go for it."

Forget it, not in todays market.

I believe Carrier had phased out all R22 equipment by 2008. This is the time period when my neighbor and I were shopping for HVAC equipment.

You're wrong. I sold Carrier equipment just past 2010 that was R22 Freon for those who didn't want to upgrade to R410a. Then beyond that I sold an off brand that was shipped dry for a time known as Payne brand. Nothing different than the name on the box.

I've sold at least 9 different brands in 14 years. Name on the box doesn't mean much. It matters more what, how, why, when, where does it operate and what's important to the customer in that regard. Contrary to popular myth, they all break. When you don't sell gimmicks, base things on reality that's how they work. That philosophy goes against the grain of suggesting that a name brand will fix all your problems magically. Even my name doesn't do that, LOL. ;-)

Carrier probably makes more brands than any other manufacturer. I still sell their equipment albeit just a different name on the box. It's made right next to another different name on the box.

---------------------

Trying to get owner that is selling house any concessions on this or that? I say good luck with that with today's Red Hot RE market.

I don't know what the RE market is like in Illinois, but I have never seen RE market here so hot. Houses listed and sold in days and over ask price. If your market is anything like that you wind up losing the house. After you go thru that riggamarole a few times?

You can try, but you may nix this sale if they have other bidders or think they can get additional bids in short time. If you don't really want the house but just settling? sure go for it.

Your home inspection report will tell you how many systems are installed, their ages, types, the models and any additional information.

The way most sellers will want to deal with this situation is to provide a home warranty that covers the HVAC system. Unless something is not functioning, this is about the best you can expect. I hate home warranties. I don't believe that they are worth much, but they are worth something. In this case, it would be a little peace of mind. It's not a perfect solution by any means.

As a seller, I would be willing to pay for one of these to back up my word that the units were working the last time I used them. I would not be willing to escrow money. When I sell, I'm done with the property and no longer feel any responsibility.

In the current market, I'm pretty certain that I can find a willing buyer that would accept home warranty. I usually advocate pressing the seller pretty hard during inspections. In today's market that is simply not a good strategy.

homechef59, here is a 2-page excerpt of the inspection report, regarding HVAC (out of a 32-page report):

4 Heating - Air

4 Heating - Air

Heating

Location of Unit

Basement. 2005 Attic. 2006

Heating Type

Forced Air.

Energy Source

Natural Gas.

Approximate BTU Rating

The BTU's were not available.

4.1) Unit Conditions

Condensation pump in basement furnace appeared to not be operating properly at the time of inspection. I recommend have the furnace(s) checked and cleaned by by a certified HVAC contractor to further evaluate if unit(s) are safe for use and code compliant. I do not inspect heat ex-changers. Recommend having certified HVAC contractor evaluate heat ex-changer and furnace for defects. Also, recommend replace the air filter.

Distribution Type The visible areas of the heat distribution system is

ductwork with registers.

4.2) Distribution Conditions

Recommend Cleaning duct work. Please note I cannot determine if efficiency or if any room will heat or cool properly.

4.3) Ventilation Conditions

The visible and accessible portion of the venting flue appeared to be in serviceable condition at the time of the inspection.

4.4) Thermostat Condition

The thermostat temperature was tested only. I do not test programming, on nest or other smart type units.

Air Condition - Cooling

4 Heating - Air

Type of Cooling System

Split system. 2005 both units

AC Unit Power

240V.

4.5) AC Unit Conditions

The outside air temperature was below 65 degrees within 48 hours of the inspection. Operating the system at this temperature could damage the system, therefore the inspector was unable to operate and test the system at the time of inspection. We advise client to consult with their attorney for information on this typical cold weather real estate transaction scenario. Since the weather is beyond our control, we will return to inspect for a nominal return trip fee of $50.00 if desired. Should re-inspection be scheduled with our office, please allow 72-hour notice (dependent on weather and ambient temperatures).

I believe the sellers are living in the house now. Of course, the heating is working, but we have no idea about the 2005-vintage AC. Maybe I can get my daughter to ask her RE agent to get into the house again to check on the points you and others have made. As I said above, there was a walk-through with the inspector and both RE agents last Friday; I was on Facetime with them then. The heat was checked by turning up the thermostat and it worked. When I saw the two identical looking compressor units, I asked about the label there and was told 2005. I didn't know enough to push for more information.

I don't think the inspection was very thorough, but it is what it is.

And this is why I recommend an inspection by a HVAC specialist. The disclaimers in an inspection report are so broad that they make the report useless. For the last five or six houses I've purchased, I've done my own inspection and hired an electrician and a HVAC specialist. If I needed a structural engineer, I would have hired one of those, too. Everything else is common sense. Because you are far away and your daughter is inexperienced, the inspection makes sense. I'd still hire an HVAC specialist on top of the inspector. Especially if you want to negotiate any credits.

I don't think the inspection was very thorough, but it is what it is.

They mostly provide you with "general" information and then recommend you get a licensed HVAC contractor to check it out. Which probably isn't a bad idea anyway.

You could get your daughter to go over there and snap a picture of the data plate info on the outside AC condensers. This tag on Carrier condenser is typically located on the electric panel cover of the outside condenser.

Post that picture here. Provided it's not too worn it will tell the refrigerant story.

The outside air temperature was below 65 degrees within 48 hours of the inspection. Operating the system at this temperature could damage the system, therefore the inspector was unable to operate and test the system at the time of inspection.

Technically true. But a short test would confirm cold air is coming out of the register and a rough estimate of the "Delta" could be obtained (heat pumps switch to AC mode to defrost all the time at low outside temperatures). If the air coming out of the registers is room temperature, then there's likely a problem.

Yes, but the inspector was unwilling to "take a chance". Upon the advice here and of our Buyers RE agent, we are going to ask for a home warrantee.

"Upon the advice here and of our Buyers RE agent, we are going to ask for a home warrantee."

Just be careful to read the small print: Exclusion periods, deductibles, caps, etc.

Upon the advice here and of our Buyers RE agent, we are going to ask for a home warrantee.

Mostly worthless. I wouldn't put any faith in that when it comes to HVAC.

Why? when the AC goes down, everyone elses AC goes down. You'll be (err your daughter) will be sweating bullets. Before that time comes sit down and read that warranty contract. All the fine print.

How it typically goes: You call home warranty to place the trouble call and pick a provider for you. (you really don't have much of a choice who they send you in most cases.)

That provider typically has anywhere from 48 to 72 hours, just to return your call... not get to your house. If they are over loaded expect 72 hours just to get a call back. They then will set your appointment. That could be days longer you're sitting in a hot house.

They finally show up. You need a part, they tell you we have to order the part and or get it approved by the warranty company. So that rigamarole could be more days sitting in a hot house waiting. (Your time in exchange for money)

All that is *IF* they don't deny your claim. Read the fine print of your contract.

Home warranties are pretty worthless. They are better than nothing. I think that it's the best one could expect from a seller given that it's a seller's market.

The only factor that we know for certain is one of the two units is aged. It may be working just fine; we just don't know one way or the other. It may last five more years. Who really knows?

As a seller, I'm saying to myself, no way am I replacing a unit that worked last September. I'll pony up for a home warranty and be done with it.

If it's acceptable to the buyer and the buyer understands that the warranty may be useless the sale will go through.

The better than nothing argument?

Sitting in a house for days in the heat or freezing cold waiting and hoping the solution is better than nothing?

I have a movie title for you: "3 min - 10 seconds to Disappointment" -- however this movie could be over 72 hours long.

Hey it's better than nothing. LOL.

It's also true the seller isn't going to replace an AC or heating system or anything, just because it's old and or maybe on it's last legs. The moral of the story is to prepare and do it yourself the hard way.

There's an old proverb: "When the going gets tough, the tough get up and going."

Well, the seller won't go for a home warranty, but his RE agent was able to send me a picture of one of the labels which clearly states that it uses R-410a refrigerant.

I purchased my last home with no warranty of any kind. One of the two HVAC systems died two weeks after we moved in. I knew both were at the end of their useful life expectancy when I purchased the home and assumed I'd be paying for replacements in the near term--although not as soon as two weeks after move in!

I think you'll be well served if you evaluate the purchase price assuming the cost of a near-term system replacement.

The seller has made a few concessions, so in this hot market, we're going ahead with the purchase.

RE agent was able to send me a picture of one of the labels which clearly states that it uses R-410a refrigerant.

Glad tp hear you were able to confirm what I thought was the likely scenario. Good luck on your house purchase.