Thank you Sean

If your climate is similar to Hamilton, Ontario, your air conditioner won't get much exercise. Accordingly, the premium for the 16 SEER unit might not produce a reasonable return on your incremental investment.

Before spending on A/C upgrades, I suggest you consider a hybrid system (a heat pump paired with a gas furnace as backup heat.) And be sure to choose a high-efficiency furnace since it will be exercised a lot.

Money better spent on heating for that location. I doubt you ever recoup the efficiency on AC for that climate, especially because anything you buy now for AC will be soon obsolete with the coming refrigerant gas changes. 2023 for Cali, 2025 for pretty much everyone else... unless?

You could argue the refrigerant changes a number of ways... like buying better AC equipment now to hopefully last long enough until things become more clear with the upcoming changes OR if you like to be early adopter to new tech?

I remember the past R22 freon phase down and how bumpy that was for some people.

Ultimately the refrigerant tango really only effects you if you spring a leak. But it seems to me this problem is becoming more common due to a variety of reasons. It effects all brands and every manufacturer.

If it were me in that location I'd get me a modulating natural gas furnace & 13 SEER AC and call it a day.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Thank you Charles Ross

Thank you Austin. I am now googling refrigerant gas changes.

I know it's a long way from Katy, TX, Ray, but the last time I checked, Ontario was in Canada. That's a whole different country! With different regulations, eh!

Given a 15 year +/- life expectancy for a residential air conditioner or heat pump, I don't think the OP needs to worry about the availability of refrigerant that might be needed for system repairs. At least you didn't post your cartoon or prescribe a Bosch inverter system.

Thanks again Charles

FYI quote
13 seer $3695
16 seer $4100
Only $405 difference
Do you guys still think stick to 13 seer? Thank you again!

A comparison of the two alternatives would include more than just comparing the stated efficiencies. Typically as you move up in efficiency, systems become more adaptable to conditions e.g., multi-stage compressors, variable speed air handlers, etc. which enhances occupant comfort, too.

If you can have a chat with the mechanical contractor, they should be able to help you make an informed decision.

Charles, green house gas emissions are world wide problem. Charles loves over dosing on irony here for some reason his yapper gets him into all sorts of problems because he can't use google properly fails to read, let alone understand what he is reading.

If natural gas wasn't available an Inverter heat pump would likely be the recommendation in some form.

So what role does / or will Canada play in terms of green house gas?

click to enlarge.

The refrigerant issue(s) isn't entirely about availability. It's about cost. Charles is a builder. Welcome to builder grade.

Charles keep it up and we may have to start restricting your 1 a day +iron tablet. LOL.

I can still use + obtain R22 freon, but it's gonna cost you if that's what you need.

Can you post the brand and model numbers of the two HVAC system choices? With that information you will get better guidance on which system would be more appropriate for your house and location.

Your point about phase down of certain refrigerants is a classic red herring, Ray.

Charles I will definitely talk to my HVAC contractor ( have 3 estimate). I really appreciate and respect the views of other too before I make my final decision. Thanks every

Hi Mike
The quote has no model # just says RUUD 2.5 or 3 ton 13 Seer Central air system- case coil and lines - outdoor condenser in wall brackets
Upgrade to 16 seer higher efficiency same install

A difference of $405 compared to the cost of building a home is insignificant. The question you should be asking is what equipment choices is the HVAC contractor providing. I am skeptical of a jump from 13 SEER to 16 SEER equipment is only $405. The SEER rating is derived from the combination of the furnace, coil, and condenser. It is unusual to only swap out the condenser and increase the SEER rating by 3 points. If you can provide the model numbers this efficiency increase could be verified.

Is the contractor quoting a 2.5 or 3 ton pending a load calculation? That difference is size is about might be more than $405. Also are you getting equipment costs or installed costs?

Installed cost . Going to email for model number. Thanks

How does a manufacturer typically make a 13 SEER a 16 SEER AC?

The physical size of the unit is larger. Capacity is the same between the two. Other differences: the refrigerant charge could be double that of the 13 SEER unit or more. (because the physical size is larger... to store more refrigerant)

So when you spring a leak on the 16 SEER AC going into a phase out of said refrigerant?

It's a red herring? no it's cotton that is typically a shade of green with dead presidents printed on it. (I've never accepted red herrings as payment, that's a fish tale. ;-) )

Typical 13 SEER AC might contain 4-8 lbs of R410a refrigerant depending on capacity, lineset length etc. Typical 16 SEER might contain 8-20 lbs of R410a depending on same criteria more or less.

Cost of ownership. Now if this location was an area that used AC alot, that would change the dynamics as well as the recommendations. How long is a Canadian summer? I doubt much more than 3 months, if that.

Location, location, location. Because the builder always says I am always telling people to buy an Inverter AC. (variable AC)

The biggest factor between 13-SEER and 16-SEER for the OP might actually be the noise factor between the 2-units and their location particularly with respect to bedrooms.

Is natural gas available at your location? What is your electrical rate? I know Ontario tends to be quite high (the cost of going green).

IMPO

SR

Ray,

The OP isn't likely to have a choice of refrigerant for their new HVAC system nor do they have the option to wait it out since it's new home construction--unless they want to forgo a cooling system.

My understanding is that the timetable for phase down of R410a for residential HVAC applications in Canada hasn't been determined yet, but could begin as early as 2024 and will probably have a 10 implementation period. Given the average air conditioner or heat pump has a life expectancy of 15 years, that phase down schedule should not result in a future meltdown for homeowners in Ontario.

You seem to want to vent about the R410a phase down at every opportunity. I suggest you dedicate a new thread for that purpose. The discussion here is a red herring, indeed.

So I checked Trane warranty from another thread this morning....

Read the fine print what is excluded from the warranty. I've nicknamed this event the Red Herring.

It's true you're going to have to pick something... 13 SEER for a climate that doesn't need AC all that frequently. That choice will also reduce the refrigerant gas leak that will come at some point in the future.

While I get this snippet from Trane... this event will include every manufacturer far and wide.

Click to enlarge.

After you read the underlined warning then read the line directly below that.

I believe it will be more like the Kracken once things start to "pan" out. ( you get it?) LOL.

Thanks Austin

It's certainly reasonable for a manufacturer of HVAC systems to exclude from their warranty the cost of any parts or labor to convert a system designed for one refrigerant to another. It's certainly unreasonable to suggest a major disruption as a consequence of the phase down of R410a--at least based on past history of refrigerant phase down in the U.S.

The Montreal Protocol (an international agreement intended to reduce global ozone depletion) was agreed in 1987 and entered into force on 1/1/1989. R-22 was one of the regulated refrigerants under the agreement. R-22 was banned from use in new HVAC units manufactured in the U.S. beginning 1/1/2010. That was more than 20 years after the agreement entered into force. The ban didn't include R-22 used for maintenance of existing equipment. The production of R-22 in the U.S. wasn't banned until 2020. That's more than 30 years later. It is still available, but only from recycled sources. Since residential HVAC systems have a typical life expectancy of 15 years +/- R-22 systems manufactured in 2009 that require replacement refrigerant will require it to come from recycled sources from 2020 though the end of their useful service life (in year 2024 +/-) That's only another two years.

Phase down of R410a under EPA regulations is a gradual reduction to 15% of baseline production by 2036. So R410a will still be available in the U.S. for quite some time. The OP lives in Canada and they haven't yet determined their timetable for R410a phase down. I wouldn't have a meltdown over the phase down nor be overly concerned about purchasing R410a equipment for residential applications based on past history.

Thanks Charles