Carrier and Trane are comparable in reliability. Mostly depends on the quality of the installation. Prices are very regional so you need to be more specific where in the central valley you are (Sacto, Fresno, etc).

2013 was 9 years ago... about the best you can hope for in terms of refrigerant leaks, regardless of any HVAC brand.

The era of putting in AC / having no trouble for up to 20 years long gone.

It's quite common what people want, now it's often more than a song and dance of various companies that tell you what you want to hear.

Service is what rules this business. Pick equipment for what it does, how it does it. If plain jane entry level is what you want the brand name means very little these days.

If energy costs are a concern consider Inverter AC. Bosch is extremely competitive in that realm compared to the bigger names. Also not every inverter AC is created equal. Carriers inverter is limited to 5 speeds. Bosch has over 60 speeds depending on configuration.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

My Carrier coils were installed in 2009. So far there have been no problems. Are you sure the coil was made by Carrier and not a third party brand? All manufacturers have reliability problems. Carrier and Trane are probably more reliable, but models are constantly changing due to new Federal requirements. The installation plays a big factor in the reliability.

You should budget about $10K for a new split system Carrie and Trane have a wide range in models. You can easily go above $15K for variable speed multistage equipment with high SEER ratings.

Post your gas and electric rates to get a comparison of gas furnace and heat pump operating costs. A gas furnace will outlive a heat pump in most climates if long term reliability is a concern.

Thanks so much! We're looking at the entry level of these units, 4ton single speed. In the middle of winter we pay about $200/mth for gas heating. In the middle of summer we pay 225-250/mth for cooling.

I've also been reading the new systems in 2023 will be the new refrigerant 454b instead of the now 410A. Is it smarter to limp through the summer and wait until early next year to get the newer system? Do we know anything about the new systems yet?

Is it smarter to limp through the summer and wait until early next year to get the newer system? Do we know anything about the new systems yet?

R454b is likely going to be expensive, not that R410a is what I would call cheap right now. Possibly a few manufacturers will choose R32. That will likely be cheaper as well as more efficient than R454b as well as R410a. (R454b has a patented component so it will always cost more.) The other argument is that R32 is worse, so they will phase that out quicker.

If they phase out R32 and the price goes up, R454b will also rise because 69% of that is none other than R32. So there is no free lunch here.

In just a entry level machine (14 SEER or 13 SEER in the north) I doubt it will make much difference because if USA is to keep it's pledge to get below 350 GWP by 2035 R454b as well as R32 will be phased out too for something else.

I think you could argue it either way. It's going to cost you anyway if what ever you have springs a freon leak. They all do it.

I replaced a Carrier coil this year that was made in 2000. Started leaking last year. So roughly 19 years. They don't make them like that any more. Most of what I see these days is about 8 years. Sometimes worse than that. Occasionally 10-12 years but those are rare.

So when I say things like that I am looking at worse case scenario. Some people are more fortunate than others.

If you want to know why this new Freon ban (R410a) in addition to R22 is taking place and why I've created a blog post on my website with embedded video that deep dives into this subject.

Currently (2022) I have about 2 hours worth of video content explaining this subject broken down into approximately 30 minute long segments. I discuss possible problems with glide, what glide is as well as other potential problems.

As we get closer to 2023 I will likely add topics to this video series as things happen. It's not just "the story" it's my story. You could put two people in a room and never get them to agree on what set point the thermostat should be set at.

~So keep that in mind. I was not put on this planet to merely tell you what you want to hear. I keep it real.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

I thought it was too good to be true. I thought we'd gotten the oft-aired Bosch inverter commercial, without the R-410A refrigerant fear mongering. But it came in two separate doses.

"If you want to know why this new Freon ban (R410a) in addition to R22 is taking place and why I've created a blog post on my website with..."

First, R-410A is not "Freon," it's sold under the brand name "Puron." R-22 is sold under the brand name "Freon." They are quite different chemically: R-22 is a HCFC and R-410A is a HFC. The former contains chlorine and the latter doesn't.

EPA has promulgated a multi-year production phase down--not a ban on R-410A. Houzzers who would like to know more about the subject--in sufficient, factual detail, can read a good summary from ACHR News by clicking on the link below:

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/145699-hvacr-industry-responds-to-epas-hfc-phasedown-rule

Alternatively houzzers can submit themselves to two hours of video hosted by a guy who is a HVAC replacement tech and who shares the screen with thermometers wearing hats and cowboy boots. Spoiler alert: he has trouble reading "big" words and understanding the difference between R-22 and R-410a.

Central Air Conditioning Buying Guide

Gas Furnace Buying Guide

From the furnace buying guide:

"Of the more than 20 gas furnace brands we rated, Trane and Payne stood out as the most reliable, earning Excellent ratings for predicted reliability."

But note that one can usually similar or identical products under all these brands: Arcoaire, Airquest, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, Bryant, Carrier, Day & Night, Payne, and WeatherMaker. For example, compare these Heil and Tempstar AC pages. Some products are unique to a brand.

I bought a Heil packaged heat pump but the identical Carrier products was delivered because that's what the distributor had in stock during the pandemic.

If the price isn't prohibitive. I'd recommend a two-stage air conditioner. The blower in my heat pump runs slower in stage 1 (AC and heating) than in stage 2 and the whoosh of airflow is nearly inaudible.

The two new refrigerants may be available in 2023. However they are flammable and are not allowed for installations under most residential building codes. Ask Call the code official in your area if it will be allowed in the future.

Freon vs Puron vs Puron Advance vs Nu 22 vs Opteon XL41 vs MO99 vs Genetron vs Dynatemp

Out of all those names you could use to describe something guess which one wins every time?

It's only important that I know what it needs.

Ray

I don't know why you want to be perceived as some sort of industry expert on the phase down of R-410A. You're a HVAC replacement tech. You unbox replacement units and hook them up. You don't work for a HVACR equipment manufacturer nor a refrigerant manufacturer and you don't have a seat at the table when alternative refrigerants are being discussed in the HVACR industry or EPA meetings. You read or watch what others are reporting on the issue and then regurgitate information in your videos but with your political spin and a healthy dose of misinformation added--like calling a phase-down a "ban" and referring to R-410A as "Freon."

If your videos are a credible source of information and if folks are indeed interested in the issue, you won't have to work so hard directing them to your site. They'll find it.

If you like being on camera, I suggest you get some sock puppets or juggle or do just about anything else where you may have some relevant expertise to share.

Then he could haunt the sock puppet forum instead.

Does anyone have any real advice for a homeowner (me) trying to figure out the best plan of action to solve my HVAC dilemma? Have four quotes now for base level carrier and trane and they are way over 13k for split system 4 ton replacement (one company said 2 years ago it would have been 8500 but inflation...). We budgeted 9k.

If nothing really seems to last these days and I'll be replacing the next hvac in 10 years anyway, any recommendations for what I should consider to save $ that have similar reliability and warranty? I just want to be cool and not have to deal with high repair or replacement costs as long as possible. Since the leak is slow we could likely get by through winter if prices on the 410 systems might be discounted as the 454 comes online?

If you were in my shoes...what would you be installing?

I should know asking real questions would solicit some total crack pot (reminds me of the big block of cheese episode for those of you who know what I'm referring to). Unfortunate but always seems to be the case.

Thanks to those offering real advice. :)

Is it smarter to limp through the summer and wait until early next year to get the newer system?

It is doubtful there will be systems with refrigerants other than 410a in 2023. I suggest only adding refrigerant if you can find a competent and honest HVAC company which can plug the leak. The Department of Energy has made a recommendation of raising the minimum efficiency of gas furnaces to 95% in 2029. It remains to be seen if this recommendation becomes law.

The prices of new HVAC equipment installations has gone through the roof. HVAC contractors are swamped with work and are charging whatever the market will bear in my opinion. Is there a time of the year when the weather is mild in your area? You might get a little better pricing when things slow down.

If the furnace is in good shape you could consider changing the coil and outdoor condenser as a way of saving some money.

HVAC contractors in my area aren't any busier than normal. They've had price increases from equipment manufacturers of 25% or more. Add to that the increased cost of sheet metal, insulation, fuel and labor costs and you'll have you answer about why prices are higher.

If this passes for California you're better off waiting. Unless they change course you won't be able to get R410a to service your equipment by Jan. 1 2025.

click to enlarge

CALIFORNIA BILL TO BAN THE "SALE" OF R410A AND OTHER COMMON HFC REFRIGERANTS

I don't know why you want to be perceived as some sort of industry expert on the phase down of R-410A. You're a HVAC replacement tech.

HVAC Industry news. Where do you go to get that kind of info?

Is it not a good idea for someone like me to inform my customers of upcoming things that could destroy their finances? Is it not good for me to contain costs for my customers and direct them in ways that are beneficial to them?

Or should I just blindly do whatever? These rules / changes effect my business in various ways.

Should I bury my head in the sand and pay no attention to legal changes coming? Is that what I should do? Please tell me Mr. Charles Ross how that makes any sense? Things you clearly do not think about. If you don't think about the small things what else is it that you are not thinking about?

I am a Texas Licensed HVAC contractor. I've repaired units that Techs couldn't fix without replacing everything for 15 to 30 grand.

"Is it not a good idea for someone like me to inform my customers of upcoming things that could destroy their finances? Is it not good for me to contain costs for my customers and direct them in ways that are beneficial to them?"

Giving folks a "heads-up" is great, but don't report the news third or fourth hand, Ray. Point them to credible sources of information which don't require folks to listen to one of your videos for two hours to get what they can read in a couple of minutes--and from professionals who are on the front lines.

Whoa you mean you have an opinion Charles?

But yet I am not entitled to my own opinion? Why that would be a dictatorship framed in the frame work of being a bully?

I will tell people what to do and they will have no say in the matter. Is that your opinion Charles?

You may get away with that with those that are on your payroll. I don't have any such kind of contract. Yet for some reason you keep spouting this sort of nonsense over and over.

I give people choices. I guess you can't understand that for some reason?

and from professionals who are on the front lines.

So I am on the back line now? Who is it that people call when their AC breaks 1 year after you "the builders" have left to go build something else?

Where is this mystical front line of professionals beside me a Texas Licensed HVAC contractor... not this mystical tech position you like to cast me into.

I service the Katy, Texas area. The home of better service.

You consider yourself a professional at what you are licensed to do and get paid to do. Leave the news reporting up to the professionals trained, equipped and paid to do it. If you'll kindly do that people will be better and more accurately informed about the R-410A refrigerant phase down with less political bias.

informed about the R-410A refrigerant phase down with less political bias.

Charles it was you that not long ago called the R-410a phase out a 'Red Herring'... a fallacy if you will.

Only four months ago Charles, you called it a Red Herring.

My, my, my, how times have changed. The info I have presented is taking hold... info that had I not posted and even you, Charles would still be in the dark about it.

Political Bias: Maybe people on this board should take the same approach.

Ray,

At the risk of diverting this thread even more from the original post, you apparently need to get help understanding the definition of "red herring." You might want to give your 3rd grade English teacher a call.

In the context of posts here on houzz.com you'll often inject the R-410a phase down into discussions where it is not particularly relevant. You direct folks to your 2 hrs. +/- of video content on the subject on your website. That's a classic red herring, Ray. It's a distraction.

Lol, I could say the same thing to you, Charles.

Negate what I say... it's a distraction... a classical red herring as you say Charles.

Why the video?

Because of people like you Charles. You are a victim of your own mind... what you believe to be true in a world of fake news. (oh that's too political) But politics of this board is fine?

Scam a minute world we are in is another reason for the video. History gets told by one too many people and misinformation finds it's way in until the real story evovles into complete and utter rubbish.

Yeah don't worry about the R410a phase down. Bury your head in the sand.

I know some people are smart enough to at least half way listen to what I have to say... so it's not for you Charles. I only continue to debate you to show those less fortunate / less need to involve themselves in your politics on this board.

A lie is much harder work to keep from unraveling.

An AC technician is called to your house. Tells you a bunch of erroneous information and had I not created those videos you would have very little to determine if someone is lying to you or not.

Common sense in a world in which there is none. Charles would never think about reasons like that for the existance of a 2 hour and growing video series on my YouTube channel.