You have a nice large kitchen so dish storage IN the kitchen will be fine. Put it to the left of the dishwasher (in my plan) and it's near the butler's pantry. If you have "fancy" dishes and silverware, the dishwasher is still close enough to the butler's pantry to store there.

A few thoughts.

Kitchen traffic pattern: My experience has been that a little criss-crossing paths during prep (two of us cook together) is not too bad, nor is crisscrossing paths very problematic when putting away clean dishes.

That's because we tend to get used to whatever we have. We are adaptable. Doesn't make it good practices though and since he's building from scratch, he might as well get it right the from the beginning.

But reversal of direction of flow during cleanup is a real nuisance. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd go with one-direction flow for cleanup: that is, from dining room to landing place to sink to second landing place to dishwasher.

Having the dishwasher IN the prep zone is a bigger hinderance.

Also, the location of your wall-oven next to the pantry door might be a nuisance when the oven door is open. One solution is garage-type oven doors;

Garage oven doors will not be a solution when people are moving back and forth from the dining room and you're taking hot food out of the oven.

Bathrooms: We have both a shower and a tub. In seventeen years we've never used the tub. We might dream of having enough time to sink into a nice hot bath, but the time has never materialized. Think twice about your real lives v. dream lives.

Well said. And I agree. :)

A curbless shower is great for the handicapped, but water quickly spreads all over the floor.

No it doesn't unless it's poorly designed. I have a curbless shower and have never had an issue of water spreading all over the floor.

To chime in on 1 sink vs. 2: our identical twins shared a bathroom, and didn't use the bathroom at the same time. Extra storage and counter space were greatly appreciated, especially after they were grown up and came back to visit.

Ok so I adopted cpartist kitchen design and then made a second kitchen design with a kitchen island. See below

Here are the PROs I see for each design:

Without island sink: clean island, no dirty dishes, water, etc.

With island sink: nice kitchen triangle (all legs are within 9 ft as it should be), large window is centered with the island.

Also, without the island sink dishes would be stored in drawers next to DW. Wondering if that can be a problem for circulating trough the butler pantry. Whereas, without the island sink dishes would be stored in drawers next to the oven in the corner, where there is more space and less traffic.

What would you choose?

The first one, hands down/no contest!

If you put a sink in the island, I would make it a prep sink, not the cleanup sink.

Keep the cleanup sink along the perimeter so the dirty dishes are somewhat hidden and not front & center and on display for all to see or in the faces of those sitting at the island.

In addition, your island is not long enough for both the Prep Zone & Cleanup Zone to be in the island. You don't have the bare minimum of 36", let alone the recommended 42" to 48" of prep space.

If it were my Kitchen, this is what I would do:

WORK ZONES

WORK FLOWS

It's too late for a detailed analysis tonight, but I will try to find time tomorrow to add one. (Back to work tomorrow!)

I like Buehl's layout.

@Buehl wow thanks a lot, such a detailed layout!

Because I am already going to have a prep sink in front of the window in the butler pantry maybe 3 sinks is too much. The sink in the butler pantry will also be used for my coffee machine that needs to be piped (inlet and outlet). Is there anything you would change if I remove the prep sink from the island? Would you still keep the trash in the island?

Thanks!

OK so I am trying to find a way to keep the tub and adopt cpartist concept for the bathroom/WIC flow. Why I am obsessed about the tub? Mainly because in all new build houses in the neighborhood there is a tub in the master bathroom. Am I going to use it regularly? Most likely no. So here is what I came up with. The shower is slimmer, so the balcony but the space for the hall bath is increased by moving the WIC wall by a couple of feet. What do you think! Thanks

If you remove the sink from the island, then it no longer is a truly functional/viable Prep Zone (unless you have no problem picking up & carrying food over & over from place to place, dripping on the floor as you go). Therefore, the only truly functional Prep Zone is now b/w the cleanup sink and the cooktop. In this case, yes, move the Trash Pullout to the non-DW side of the sink. (Non-DW side is the Prep Zone since the sink now overlaps and is now shared with two primary work zones -- Prep & Cleanup.)

It does mean that you will now be prepping with your back to everyone, not ideal for most people, but other don't care.

FYI...the Butler's Pantry is really not a Prep Zone, so while there may be a sink in it, it isn't a "prep sink" per-se, it's just another sink placed out of the way where no one can easily use it for much more than the coffee machine.

Personally, I'd ditch the sink in the Butler's Pantry and put one in the island. I would much rather prep facing people, whether they're seated at the island or in the Great/Family/Living Room. You can still plumb the coffee machine. If I had to have a sink in the Butler's Pantry, I would just have three then. Plumbing is relatively inexpensive, especially in a new build (or a remodel with a basement below).

However, it's up to you -- we all have different priorities. As long as you have a functional Prep Zone somewhere that makes sense, that's fine.

You must live in a very different place than I do [see below]. In our area, and all surrounding areas (Mid-Atlantic area of USA), it's the Hall Bathroom that always has a tub. It's 50-50 whether the Master Bathroom does. In general, if there's a big shower, there usually isn't a tub (unless it's a huge bathroom); if there's a small or average size shower, there usually is a tub.

Something to consider -- we originally planned on having a built-in bench in our shower, however, in the end we decided to skip the bench and get a teak bench that is movable. Our thoughts were that if for some reason we needed to sit down during a shower (e.g., injury, aging in place), we would be able to move the bench close to the water without having to add an extra seat to the shower along with a bench. It also didn't permanently take up as much space. And, it's easier to clean the shower! (Cleaning wasn't a main concern, it was the movability that really was the determining factor.)

ETA: I just remembered that you are in my area. I find it interesting that you see things that I don't see. Or, are you comparing your smaller Master Bathroom with the giant ones in the larger McMansions in the area (that are starting to lose their appeal to many)?

@Buehl

I honestly do not understand the need of a bench and gigantic showers so I like your approach to use a removable bench if needed. Houses in general tend to be big (5000SQFT and above) with huge bathrooms where I am building, so fitting a tub in those houses is not a problem. I am trying to build a smaller more efficient house and meet DOE NetZeroReady requirements.

@ Buehl

Sure a prep sink on the island makes much more sense than in the "butler pantry". I will keep al 3 sinks for now

I also live in the DC suburbs and just built a house that I moved into in March. Definitely not a pro but have lived through this experience recently. Our kitchen is laid out exactly as your original design is. Perhaps it’s because I’m used to a MUCH smaller kitchen before, so anything would be an upgrade but honestly…..the layout I think has been great and works well for me. I actually like having the sink a little bit farther away from the action because if I’m cooking my kids are more likely to come to the sink then anywhere else, so I rather have that be a little bit farther to the side. I always hear this same thing on Houzz that you take food out of the fridge and wash it but that’s only the case for some of the foods I cook. I don’t feel like that’s the pattern that I have at every meal. We also don’t have our cooktop and Hood centered with the island. I thought that might bother me but honestly once it was put in, it didnt look odd to me at all. I never notice it. It doesn’t look weird at all. So maybe there’s good reasons to change your layout for all the factors people here have said. But if for some reason you decide to stick with the original plan, I don’t think it will be a disaster!

What would you choose?

Neither! That's not what I suggested. I suggested if you want to keep the the cooktop closer to the fridge, then you switch the sink with the cooktop from my plan, put the dishwasher to the right of what would now be the cleanup sink and then ADD A PREP SINK TO THE ISLAND.

Actually I like Buehl's layout. What I particularly like is the cleanup sink is near enough the cooktop so it's easy to turn from the cooktop to the sink to put pots, etc in before putting them in the dishwasher.

But if for some reason you decide to stick with the original plan, I don’t think it will be a disaster!

Again, we humans are adaptable so no it won't be a disaster. But why design something that is just something that isn't a disaster that we adapt to, versus something that makes our daily activities more enjoyable?

I'm a prime example. I do not like cooking. I like baking. I have only enjoyed cooking in 2 of the many kitchens I've had over the years.

The first one was in my first house and I finally realized why when I built my new house. That small kitchen had from left to right the fridge, a cabinet, the dishwasher, the sink, a small cabinet and then it turned the L where there was the stove and a small cabinet. That was it. No island, etc but prepping to the right of the sink was easy and made it almost enjoyable.

The second one is the house we built 5 years ago and during Covid I thanked my lucky stars that I had designed the kitchen according to best practices. The only thing I didn't do is put the prep sink on the island and that was because I'm getting up there in years and felt being able to slide the food over from the prep sink to the cooktop would work better if I became less able.

So in my current kitchen, my island as my dishwasher, cleanup sink and dish drawer storage.

My perimeter from right to left is the coffee cabinet, fridge, counter with drawer microwave, trash drawers, prep sink, corner drawers with my knives, turn the corner and my prep space is between the prep sink and my cooktop with lots of drawer storage, my cooktop, more wide drawers and my oven. It all moves so smoothly.

I honestly do not understand the need of a bench and gigantic showers so I like your approach to use a removable bench if needed.

That's what we decided to do although in 5 years, we've yet to buy the teak bench. LOL. Haven't needed it thankfully.

Houses in general tend to be big (5000SQFT and above) with huge bathrooms where I am building, so fitting a tub in those houses is not a problem. I am trying to build a smaller more efficient house and meet DOE NetZeroReady requirements.

Since you're buying a smaller house, don't try and compete with the larger houses trying to fit 10 lbs in a 5 lb bag. Instead do what you're doing in making the house as well built and well designed as possible. Honestly you really don't need the second tub and many people are pulling them out because they realize a larger shower is much nicer

The master bathroom layout is not bad. I would suggest moving the shower head to the other wall adjacent to the bedroom

To piggy-back on what CPArtist is saying about adaptability...I generally post the following when people are remodeling and they something like "that's what I've always had and it's not an issue". But, I think to some extent it applies here as well, especially based on some of the comments you're receiving.

Human beings are very adaptable. We can adapt to anything - good or bad! We adapt so well that we tell ourselves it's fine the way it is and we often no longer "see" the issues we've adapted to. But, what if it could be better? If you ask just about anyone here who took our advice and changed their layout to make it better, they will tell you they never realized it could be so much better and wondered how they had lived with the issues for so long! (The answer is back to the adaptability of human beings!)

Human beings are resistant to change. Even when something can be made better, we resist change. We like (or are comfortable with) what we know and we have a hard time seeing other ways to do things - even if they would be so much better! And, as I mentioned before, we've adapted to what we have - both the good and the bad.

Why not at least try for something better?

If you're going to spend the $$$ to build/renovate, don't create a "make do" Kitchen or simply repeat the issues/inefficiencies of previous Kitchen(s) you've had (or even just seen). As I mentioned above, human beings are adaptable; we can adapt to anything -- good or bad. We're also resistant to change, even when it's a good change. We have adapted to what we have and have a difficult time imagining anything better. Usually, the "way we work" is the result of adapting to what we have, not what might be better. We say "it's OK", "I don't mind", or other, similar comments because, subconsciously, we're resisting any change from what we know.

If you fix inefficiencies or issues, you may find yourself working differently and, usually, it's better and more pleasant.

Note: This applies to other rooms as well, not just Kitchens.

We didn't put a tub in our masterbath. We also didn't put a built in bench in the shower. Like others mentioned if there comes a time when we need to be seated we will buy a teak bench.

We didn’t put a tub in our master either but we did put a bench.

No one ever uses those carefully placed under the focal window so your neighbors can see you naked tubs in masters. Do a better shower.

OP: in your latest bathroom rendition, the left side sink looks like it would feel very crowded next to the shower wall. Personally, I'd rather have one sink in the middle with counter and drawers to either side. (Would two people really stand side by side and use those two sinks at the same time? Looks tight.)

Also, think about where you would hang towels. You step out of the shower, and where are your towels? I suppose you could hang them opposite the tub / behind the toilet closet. But I feel like even a few steps away could be too drippy and slippy.

All thank you for all your comments and patience!

So yes I am still not excited about any of the bathroom options until now. Cpartist design gives independent access to WIC and bathroom and remove the door in front of the bed but I do not like the ginormous shower with bench and the rest of the bathroom still feel cramped. My last design has a tub but it is also cramped as chicagoans pointed out unless I remove the tub.

Another possibility is the following:

Basically I am moving the master bedroom from left to right module and WIC and bath to the left module. This way the Master bedroom is facing the balcony, which I like. The balcony depth is reduced from 8 ft to 6 ft. The bedroom is smaller now and the extra space is used to expand the hall bathroom (everybody seems to agree I need more storage in there) and also expand bedroom #3 (by moving the closet outside the room). Now there is no need to walk through the bathroom to access the WIC and the bathroom layout I believe is very efficient and has more room for sink cabinets (I left the original size of the cabinets in the schematic to give an idea of the gain). The window above the tub is a transom window so no problem with privacy. Not sure which door I should have between the bathroom and bedroom. I did some research and pocket doors at marriage walls require extra attention and time for air sealing. Probably not a deal breaker but an outswing or inswing door would avoid the issue.

Anyway what do you think of this concept? Do you see any major cons? Thank you so much again!

Here is the same concept with a possible hall bathroom layout.

Any feedback? If you hate it just le me know please :)

Thank you!

That’s a lot of wasted space in the new hall bath version. This is our girls shared bath and it works great for them. They use at same time often.

The new hall bathroom is more functional as it offers additional storage space, but it does have a significant amount of unused or wasted space.

The problem with your latest is that anyone who is sleeping in the master will be woken up in the middle of the night by lights being turned on in the bathroom. Also if you're both on different wake/sleep schedules, that will be an issue in the morning/night; including the closet.

And now your walk in closet is smaller but the kids bathroom is the size of a master bath suite?

@cpartist thanks again for your feedback!

I am not too worried about the light issue at night. I can easily install a weak night light in the bathroom on motion sensor and then just use a mirror light or the light in the toilette room. Anyway, I suspect that noise is going to be a worse nuisance than light.

The walk in closet is smaller in area but the available hanging/shelf space is actually slightly higher (25 ft vs 27 linear ft). Also I can have a small window in the WIC and because it is facing north I am not worried about clothes fading.

I reduced the size of the hall bathroom a bit by creating a 5 ft wide WIC . It might come handy if I decide to install a separate HVAC unit on the second floor.

The hall bathroom will also be used by guests, so honestly having a cramped bathroom like the original one is not a good option for me.

Slightly edited hall bathroom is shown below.

In conclusion, I start liking this design. Am I crazy?

Yes. This hall bathroom design is poor.

How big is that hall bathroom?

The entry now into your bedroom is awkward and how will you get a bed, dresser, etc into the room? Up through the balcony? Note that in the version I showed you, it's a straight shot into your master.

How wide is that hall closet?

Hall bathroom is about 10x9 plus 4x8 for the toilet room. The hall closet is a bit over 5 ft wide.

Navigating furniture into the bedroom might require assembling the furniture within the room. In your design the door is straight to the hall but perpendicular to the stairs. So if furniture is moved up from the stairs it is actually easier to move furniture to the bedroom with my last design, especially if I swap the stair flights that goes up with the one that goes down.

That said I did not reject your design, I am just evaluating alternatives with pros and cons, and your feedbacks are very valuable to me!

Maybe in your design I would replace the bench with a tub and create a wet room with shower and tub. Right now the shower is about 6x10 ft. Also, not sure if the shower door can be swinging inside the shower. Might be against some county laws.

I am building now and my shower is 5x7. it's PLENTY big. 6x10 would be more like a shower dance hall. Unless you need that space to bathe an emotional support donkey, you should cut it down so that it's not cold / cavernous.

In your design the door is straight to the hall but perpendicular to the stairs. So if furniture is moved up from the stairs it is actually easier to move furniture to the bedroom with my last design, especially if I swap the stair flights that goes up with the one that goes down.

NO because the stairway is NOT an enclosed space like the doorway is in your design.

Maybe in your design I would replace the bench with a tub and create a wet room with shower and tub.

No one likes a wet room. Think of the cleaning. However your shower is so large you most likely can incorporate a tub

Right now the shower is about 6x10 ft.

A 6 x 10' shower is way too large to be comfortable in terms of staying warm. Even 6 x 5 is large,

Also, not sure if the shower door can be swinging inside the shower.

Mine swings both in and out.

Might be against some county laws.

Might be,

BTW: Yes it's a very good thing you're exploring all options! And I'm happy to offer my unsolicitated opinions. :)

@ just_janni

I totally agree with you I would be happy with 4x4 or even 3 by 5

What part of the DC region are you in? I'm asking b/c you have a lot of plumbing on your outside wall.

I'm North of DC / West of Baltimore / East of Frederick and in our old MBA, we had the tub drain on an outside wall (West facing) that froze at least once each Winter. Even the shower & tub plumbing that was on an interior wall but within a couple of feet of the exterior wall froze a few times over the years when it got far colder than normal.

When we remodeled in January of last year, we made sure all plumbing & drains were on an interior wall and added additional insulation in the walls, floor (2-fit cantilever), and around all pipes. I suggest you do the same if you end up with plumbing on an exterior wall (toilet, sinks, etc.). If you're South of DC, it may not be an issue since I don't think it gets nearly as cold there as it does North of DC.

@Buel

I am building in Bethesda. Funny, I just saw your post after emailing the builder and asking about freezing in exterior wall pipes. I am going to install at least 1 inch of exterior foam insulation, so that will help for sure but not sure if it is enough. Ideally I would move all that pipes to interior walls.

Not a fan of that newly designed hall bath. It has a lot of wasted space. I bet you will hear the toilet flush late at night in the master.

-Can you shrink it down and add along closet for the master with the extra space?

-Do you need two tubs?

-Do you really see yourself using the balcony? That could be valuable space for the master suite.

Not so far from me! Yes, definitely get the extra insulation -- even if the lines are within a couple of feet of an exterior wall!

FYI, this is what we did with our Hall Bath. It's a bit longer than most Hall Bathrooms elsewhere, but not so big that it wasted space. It actually seemed to be the perfect size, even when we had 2 kids growing up (19 months apart in age).

4-foot Vanity with one sink and a lot of space b/w the vanity and toilet

Note the shower head was raised 6" b/c our family members (and extended family) are all tall.

OK, Bethesda, that explains the size & fixtures you want (including the tub). Bethesda & Potomac areas are still in the "McMansion" & "more is better" mindset.

Shower in Master Bathroom. It's 7' x 4' and plenty big enough (for 2). We only have one showerhead b/c we're on a well and our water pressure won't support two showerheads, like we had originally considered. (The lighted rectangle around the hook is a reflection of the lighted mirrors over our vanity.)

Tips:

• We put in a combination Exhaust Fan/Heater. It gets cold in the winter and we keep our house around 68 degrees during the day and 62 at night, so the bathroom is cold in the morning when I shower (the skylight probably doesn't help).
• We also have heated tile floors in the entire bathroom -- they're great in the cooler months. The thermostat is programmable and the heating is on a schedule, set for warm 9pm to 9am (I shower in the AM & my DH at night). They're never completely off, but they're set so low during the day that they never heat up -- at least not that I've noticed (62 degrees, I think).
• Love the lighted vanity mirrors, they're great for lighting up my entire face with no shadows when I'm putting on makeup. They're dimmable as well.
• All lights dimmable.
• Get as many drawers as possible in the vanity -- they're a game-changer for bathroom storage!

6-foot vanity with lighted mirrors. We have several different types of lighting -- recessed over the toilet, as part of the exhaust fan/heater, lights over the mirrors, and, of course, the lighted mirrors. All LED and all dimmable.

What about something like this for the Hall Bath:

@ Buehl

Hello thanks for the many good advices and the photos! I love your shower. Not sure if it is curbless or not. Lighted mirrors are great. Wondering if you can have any storage space behind them.

About the water pipes, the builder told me that the exterior water pipes will be fine because the water supply lines would access from the floor system up just like in kitchens. Anyway I would not mind adding pipe insulation for peace of mind.

The heated floor is a great idea. If budget permits I will look into that as well!

The shower is not curbless, it has a couple of inches of curb. I was worried about "flooding", so we decided to go with a short curb.

As to the mirrors, no, there is no storage behind them. It turns out that with the new vanity and all the extra drawer storage, we don't need any more! (Our old bathroom had just a wall mirror the length of the vanity so we didn't "lose" any storage space putting in just mirrors.)

I think you can get similar mirrors with storage behind them.

Hello please download the updated floor plan here:

Updated floorplan

This is largely inspired by all your comments so thank you for that!

First floor has no major modification other than appliances position.

In the second floor we moved the door to the bathroom up. We still need to walk through the bathroom to reach the WIC but we do not need to walk back through the bedroom to walk between WIC and bathroom . This layout should minimize the nuisance if one of us is going to bed late or getting up early.

The hall bathroom is pretty big with sink cabinets that are slightly bigger than those of the master bathroom. One thing I am not sure: Do you think we have enough place to hang towels in the bathrooms? Any major flaw that you see? Thanks once again!

I would really recommend changing the hallway bath. You have a huge space only one person can use at a time.

@WestCoast Hopeful parents of small kids can really appreciate that size of a bathroom.

It’s not the size that’s the issue. I have three kids. It’s the fact that thinking beyond just the small kid stage it means one kid uses at a time so is far less useful. It could easily be reconfigured to have the toilet and tub in same area and sinks in another making two define usable spaces. Still big.

Each space needs to perform multiple functions at once. That bath isn't even doing well with 1 function with 1 person.

@DeWayne and WestCoast

Why the hall bathroom is not functional? Two people can easily use that bathroom at the same time. With a small baby having extra space to move is a plus for me and my wife. If I had to make the bathroom smaller how would you use that space? Thanks!

If someone is in the bath/shower that means no one can be in the toilet or getting ready at sinks etc.

Alternative plan would be to put bath and toilet in one room and sinks separate making it possible for one person to be at sinks and another showering or using toilet.

Making a bathroom for baby stage is poor long term planning. What will work for multiple stages is better.