Goodman GSZV904810 4 Ton Heat Pump Condenser Unit

Goodman AMVE48DP1400 Air Handler

This heat pump and air handler is a approved match by the manufacturer. The AHRI directory certificate has a SEER2 rating of 20.0 and EER2 rating of 11.5. Cooling capacity at 95 F degrees is 44,000 BTU, heat output is 44,500 BTUs at 47 F degrees. HSPF2 rating is 8.2.

Don't assume the HVAC contractors in your area can purchase equipment for less than the online price. Prices vary by region and distributor. Get additional quotes to verify you are being quoted a fair price. A rule of thumb is the installed price is twice the price of the equipment.

"I just want to be sure I'm not getting soaked on both the equipment cost and on the labor as I'm evaluating bids."

You're getting a new HVAC system installed. Of course you're going to get soaked - it's the nature of the business!

Mike, Your statement: "A rule of thumb is the installed price is twice the price of the equipment" is bogus. It depends entirely on the cost of the equipment and the needs of the install (new line sets or a flush? Drop in, or heavy rework at location?) There is zero chance an expensive brand new heat pump system is going to take 10K to install, unless you are replacing all the ductwork too. Or, unless an unscrupulous HVAC company finds a nice little old lady who doesn't do her homework and has no idea what the typical costs are, including markup. I can say, if an HVAC company is not getting true manufacturer wholesale pricing cheaper than what the public can get online, then need to get into another line of business or find a new dealer.

David,

I understand what you are saying. But the reality is this is how most installers will estimate the price of a typical HVAC system installation. South Florida prices may lower than average. Get installation quotes on the Goodman equipment you have listed and post them. It would be useful information to forum readers.

Manufacturers determine a suggested retail price and is usually in line with competition of similar products so their gross margin will fluctuate to stay competitive. Carrier's gross margin is about 25% and earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization is about 10% of revenue and a good return IMO.

Manufacturer‐aligned distributor's and wholesalers gross margin runs about 30% across the board and rarely fluctuates across product lines. The discount on products by distributors/wholesalers to contractors aren't really that much and it's actually called a value added discount in line with what Ray stated.

Contractors work off their own selected gross margins on the total job and not individual equipment prices. Or how it should be, and they can charge any margin they want. The margin percentage is the cost to produce the revenue, and an individual mark up for the equipment before adding their margin isn't how it works, or at least least in business. If their margin is 30% it means the contractor will make 30% on what he paid for the equipment.

If two contractors are working in the real world of business with the same margin one may still have a higher cost of revenue but the margin would still be the same on the equipment so getting screwed on equipment is rarely the issue, it's the high costs of revenue or high margins were you get screwed.

Budget heating and A/C is getting their margin and may take a bite of the contractors margin too, and including shipping and sales tax (budget must charge you 6% tax) I doubt you're getting a deal. In Florida the equipment is not taxable if a contractor installs it. Do you even know a contractor that will install the equipment you bought off line? I've taken my own food to a restaurant to cook for me and haven't had one willing to do it yet. Ray, what's your gross margin? Or do you charge based on gullibility.

If you're a good talker see if you can find out if the company bids strictly using a margin, and better yet what their margin is (but doubt you'll get an answer) If they work with a margin see what kind of overhead they have, do they have a dispatcher, a president, 2 VP's and 4 secretaries stiting in offices? Their cost of revenue or margin will be high to pay all the baggage, and this is why Ray is filthy rich Any good at poker and know how to bluff? I have a bid from another contractor for the same equipment but want another. They'll ask who and how much, so talk circles around the question and don't answer. They know every contractor in town so keep them guessing.

David:

Unfortunately what both you and Ray are saying is way far from reality. HVAC contractors invariably DOUBLE their cost of equipment and then close to DOUBLE that cost again to install. It's a rip-off business! Of course, the complexity of the job will determine the exact installation cost but a doubling of equipment price is going to be a pretty close average.

And don't forget the overhead..... those three PVC couplings on a 20 year old truck!!!

Kevin: There's no such thing as MSRP for an HVAC manufacturers equipment - try posting a link to one.

Ray, what's your gross margin? Or do you charge based on gullibility.

I don't really operate from a gross margin perspective. I charge for my time primarily + cost of equipment / materials + potential gotchyas because? (or what the job is worth, my opinion based on over 30 years of doing, not guessing.)

If I do it I am going to stand behind it. I am at the top of the pay scale (don't hire sub contractors to do any of it.) If you don't see the value in that + the value that if it breaks again (it will) I can fix it again. (repeatable honest business = good living) if you want to call that filthy rich? I can't say I would take it that far. Provided well for yes, I earn what I make working with my hands not sitting behind a desk all day barking orders to sub contractors / techs.

I know my value it's not up for debate. Oh so you mean it's your way or the highway? uh yeah, you could say that. I know my business. If you want to hire someone you can bark orders to? I am not your guy. I don't care if you like this or not. You hire me: You are getting a pro that doesn't need to be told what to do, how to do, when to do, what not to do etc. (imagine an easy button, push it then shut up let the magic happen.) Thinking you know something more than a guy that's been doing it for over 30 years? If you know more than me, you don't need me. I only go where I am needed can't make it any more clear than that.

I've been told just recently by a business partner of sorts that provides me work on a regular basis that I am very competitive on price. Does this mean I am the low price leader? Uh no. I don't run a deal of the century kind of business.

I work in attics that are well over 100F. On occasion I am in them for hours fixing / repairing / replacing. I am not a Technician. I am a Texas Licensed HVAC contractor. The cheap price will get you all kinds of? Most installers are hired with only minimal experience. They are called installers because they lack the ability to trouble shoot problems. If that's what you want? You won't find it at Austin Air Companie in Katy, Texas.

At over 30 years in HVAC and about 16 1/2 years running my own HVAC company I have 100's and 100's of pieces of equipment I have installed over the years. Of that make up maybe a total of 10-20 complete systems for my area most of the time that is Furnace + Condenser + Coil and in some rare cases Air Handler + Condenser.

I didn't start my HVAC company to become filthy rich. I did it to provide a good living working with my hands, meeting people, being honest and not just pushing something to make a buck. Anyone can do that. I'm not anyone: I am Ray Austin. There is only 1 of me. Yet I have the time to make long posts like this plus do everything else associated with running an HVAC company.

Again if you don't see value in that... there isn't anything more I am going to say here to change your mind. Service is the back bone, without service nothing gets done. (other than providing excuses.)

I service the Katy, Texas area.

"I just want to be sure I'm not getting soaked on both the equipment cost and on the labor as I'm evaluating bids." You're competitive bidding the project, so the overall price and scope of work are what's important, not a contractor's specific allocation of costs for equipment, labor, overhead and profit. To that end, make sure each proposal clearly states the system design parameters, the scope of work to be performed, the specific make/model of equipment to be installed, the warranties on equipment and workmanship, and the post-installation commissioning process that will be performed to ensure the new system is operating as designed. That last one is rarely performed and really important.

When pricing becomes relatively unreasonable you have another option.

Especially if you're an engineer like the guy in the video.

Or if you can make Detroit deep dish pizza for your friends.

I was born in Detroit. Not a fan of the pizza there.

When pricing becomes relatively unreasonable you have another option.

Oh no job security in trouble?

nope.

Mr Cool leaking refrigerant at factory joint.

Any components can be used. Autozone has the vacuum pump and gauges for free rental.

Don't panic Ray your job is secure.

The guy who installed the Mr cool equipment is smarter than anyone here. He mentioned Mr cool sent me this stuff, notice he didn't say I bought it or ordered it so I'm confident he got the stuff for free.
Mr. cool is rebranded Gree equipment and it's not horrible stuff but not the best either. A DIY'er could replace the equipment 3 times and still come out ahead over having a Carrier system installed, so their is good value if you have the ability to install it. Even Carrier is getting into the DIY market with equipment retail sales through ICP they own and rebranding Airquest as ACIQ.

Here's an ACIQ source example. ACiQ 3 Ton 16 SEER2 Variable Heat Pump Split System - ACiQ-36-AHB / ACiQ-36-HPB | HVACDirect.com

First off, I want to thank everyone who commented on my question. Since I can't reply specifically to any of the posts in this forum, I'll comment on some of the posts individually:

kevin9408...............

Perhaps you meant to say "List Price", rather than MSRP?

The following figures are shown on the budgetheading URL link in my original post for the exact equipment I'm having installed:

List Price: $10,727.00

Our Price: $8,881.00

That's a $1,900 difference and is not chump change. I could provide many other links from direct-to-public Goodman distributors that show a similar "markdown" from whatever the original Goodman suggested "List Price" is. But of course, we both know Goodman does not charge "List Price" to its distributors (online or physical). So let's cut the malarky.

My original question, which no one technically answered, is what would be the price of a similar system purchased by a contractor from a local distributor. I read what your wrote, essentially that "everyone charges a markeup" and that "it varies" and can be "whatever anyone wants it to be", etc, and that my tiny little brain should not be concerned about how much contractors pay for the equipment they buy. But only that they'll have an overall "mystery margin" that I should just accept as fact and thank them as I bend over. Sorry, that feels a lot like snake oil salesman talk. Same as I would get from a car dealership if I asked a similar question about markup...until I demanded they produce a copy of their manufacturers invoice for the actual car I selected (else I walk and have) and then discuss their holdback, factoring incentives, and other such matters until we both know exactly what profit they will be recieving from me for a cash sale, once which I feel is accetpatble, rather than rolling over and playing their typical cat and mouse game. Hence the reason for my original question.

"If their margin is 30% it means the contractor will make 30% on what he paid for the equipment...so getting screwed on equipment is rarely the issue..."

Hold up. If I am identifying the exact equipment I want installed to the contractor AND providing them with examples of online pricing for direct-to-public prices, and all this guy has to do is click a few buttons to order it on my behalf and have them deliver it to my driveway, for that I am supposed to pay a 30% equipment markup for that? Un no. That's not how I roll.

"...including shipping and sales tax (budget must charge you 6% tax) I doubt you're getting a deal."

Let's do the math, shall we?:

$8,399.00 = direct-to-public price

+ $255.00 = cost to ship to my residential zip including lift gate delivery

+ $587.93 = 7% sales tax in my area

---------

$9,241.93 = total cost for self purchasing

vs...

$8,399.00 =

+$2,519.70 = 30% contractor markup

---------

$10,918.70 = cost charged for same equipment if purchased via contractor

(assumes contractor pays $0 in shipping charges via local distributor pick up)

...that's a difference of $1,676.77. Plus, if the contractor is paying MORE than what I would pay purchasing it myself, then as mentioned he needs a new distributor (or perhaps get a computer with an internet connection). But I thank you for a couple of useful bits, such as contractors not paying sales tax and the suggestion to find out if the company bids strictly using a margin.

sktn77a...................

"HVAC contractors invariably DOUBLE their cost of equipment and then close to DOUBLE that cost again to install. It's a rip-off business! Of course, the complexity of the job will determine the exact installation cost but a doubling of equipment price is going to be a pretty close average."

Well, then THAT is the very definition of "getting soaked" I was referring to in my original post. As mentioned, if I am doing the leg work to do the research, review the product info, its specs and installation manual, the ComfortBridge info and wiring, the CoolCloud app settings, verifying the system's compatibility with my Ecobee Premium smart thermostat, and numerous other minutia (and yes, I am an engineer), and all I'm asking the contractor to do is order it for me and have the distributor deliver it to ensure I get the full 10-year Goodman limited warrantee, then I would LOVE for someone to try to justify why they feel that should recieve a full 30% of the cost for basically doing nothing (and try to keep a straight face while doing it).

Yes, would be happy to pay for a small amount of markup for the privilege of them clicking the website buttons instead of me. And I'd be happy to pay for them to pull a permit (to also confim their installation was safe and up to code standards). And would be happy to pay a reasonable hourly rate for the full installation and system test and adjustment, even a premium if I knew they were really good at it and were not just sending in 3rd party hired "installers" (as Ray pointed out). But c'mon. This is the kind of sh-4 service centers at car dealerships do, where they charge customers $90+ in almost pure profit to relace a couple of $10 engine and cabin air filters that they get dirt cheap from their own bulk stock inventory (i.e, even much cheaper than public can get). Or they charge $5 for a oil pan crush washer that cost $5 per 1000. That's just BS and I'm calling it out.

Ray/Austin Air Companie..............

Thanks for your detailed comments and for stepping forward to show there are honest AC contrators out there willing to charge for their hourly work (time) + equipment (I assume without a giant markup) + cost of gotchas. That makes much more sense. And I appreciate your valuing your own work.

But alas, I would not be your ideal customer. My bids for the quotes I will be sending out would have so much required detail that it would offend someone like you, all the way down to specifying the use of silver solder during brazing with nitrogen flow, pressure testing and pulling a vacuum to below 500 microns, specifying long radiums elbows for suction line, with no crimping, and outside/inside edges deburred and wrapped in 1/2" Armaflex, fine tuning both subcooling and superheat and adjusting TXV as needed, and a dozens more at that level of detail.

Your approach to "let me do my job, I'm the expert, you're just the paycheck" would be better suited to rich older people who know nothing about what your are doing, who trust you to chose their equipment, and who who just pray that the person they have hired will do right by them. I'm just not wired like that and don't want to take chances and end up with costly mistakes. Just a brief look at some of the horrific pictures online on the terrible jobs some of these so-called installers have done is enough reason to make sure I double check everything. I see online videos where they appear to be proud of their installation work but are doing it wrong, missing critical steps, and often are called out by it from other HVAC techs.

That said, I admire your pride and willingness to do the work yourself and stand behind it. And if I was in your area, I would actually seek to have you bid on my project. We woud just need to come to an understanding that I have a little PTSD when it comes to getting screwed by repair and installation people, and my long of required (or adjusted) point items that I would attach as an addendum to any bid/contract (and have it signed) is only to make sure if there is anything on the list that they won't do or disagree with, then its better I now that now, instead of coming along during or after their work and being "surprised". If there's a reason to adjust the listed items, there would need to be a logical and plausible reason that make sense to both of us.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone who contributed their feedback. To be honest, at this point I'm strongly considering purchasing the equpiment myself, and hiring a contractor to do the specific work I'm requesting to do the final hookup and testing and software config. I just can't see paying "double" over the price of the already expensive equipment, just to install it. Far far cheaper to just find a company and pay by the hour to do the brazing, refridgerant, and final bits. I can handle the plenum attachment, disgarding of old equipment, replacing/upgrading breakers, drain line attachment/float switch, new electrical whip and disconnect, etc. These things also come with detail installation instructions, so its not like its a complete mystery.

But I may also go through the bidding process for 4-6 companies just to get an overall feel for how much I'll be saving with a 90% DIY situation. If the hvac companies are any good, I may also pick up on a few tips before I embark on that journey, or if the overall savings different is only around $2K-$4K today, I may decide to splurge and have them do it all. But there's no way in heck I'm paying double the cost of the 10K equipment just to install it.

Two more quick points I failed to mention:

1. The only real hesitency I have about making this a 90% DIY project is because Goodman only gives a 5 year warrantee if the system is not purchased and installed by a licensed contractor. Which means I would need to find an installer will to do the specific hourly work requested, and then make sure they can place the order (on my behalf) have it delivered to my home, wait another week for me to have the time to get all the prep work done, and then come finish the install. At some point this could become a hassle. But then again... I would have 10K reasons to accept that hassle and plow ahead.

2. After replacing my 4-ton system this year, I will also be replacing my other 2-ton system (same home) in Jan to maximize the $2k federal tax rebate per system per year (for a total savings of 4K on both systems). So I would be doing the same process for both systems: either getting bent over the barrel by hiring someone to do it all, or dealing with the mild DIY hassle + partial contract work all over again.

Replace both with the same contractor as a single job. Have him break it up time-wise and with separate billing to meet the tax requirements.

"all I'm asking the contractor to do is order it for me and have the distributor deliver it to ensure I get the full 10-year Goodman limited warrantee, then I would LOVE for someone to try to justify why they feel that should recieve a full 30% of the cost for basically doing nothing (and try to keep a straight face while doing it)"

Like I said, it's the nature of the business.

cost charged for same equipment if purchased via contractor

(assumes contractor pays $0 in shipping charges via local distributor pick up)

Newish type service vehicle to pick up said equipment could be as much as $80 grand brand new. Even with me and my 2006 Ford Box van aren't picking up equipment for you for $0. Renting a vehicle to pick up the equipment yourself if you don't own a truck? Are those free? If you injure your back getting it onto the truck or off the truck for that matter? Is Chiropractor free or back surgery free?

I appreciate your thoughts here, but it leaves much to be desired to look at the entire picture rather than what you think "without fully thinking" about the task. It's one thing to have the truck loaded at the distributor, it's quite another to get it off the truck at the delivery point without damage to you OR the equipment itself. A manufacture warranty is not likely to cover damage due to delivery. (Yeah, that's not free either.)

BUT this "pick up equipment" cost is factored into the whole job, not just picking it up from the distributor only and delivering it to you. If you think anything on this planet is free, seek professional help... or live out the fantasy in Venezuela. I think you'd learn real quick what free looks like there.

There's a cost to everything: either in the cost of money OR the cost of time: What is worse than that? It costs via time plus money. The beneficial thing about money is that it can be remade. Time can not. Once your time is up on this spinning rock, that's it.

There's a cost for this too. The same guy every time.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

More-

Phew..... Well said. But you forgot add those three PVC couplings "on the truck"!

I originally posted the rule of thumb about the installed cost is twice the equipment cost. I don't agree with it, but that is common where I live. If you can hire someone to do a proper installation for less money then go for it. Where I live in NJ there is a shortage of qualified HVAC tech and good HVAC companies are swamped with work. The recent heat wave has made a bad situation worse.

David,

You have some very particular criteria for how you want your HVAC system installed. That's not a wrong approach, but it will limit the pool of HVAC contractors capable of, and willing to perform the work. Further, you want that subset of HVAC contractors to furnish and install the system for a bargain basement price. Those two objectives tend to be mutually exclusive, in my experience both as a contractor and as a consumer. My guess is that you're headed for a 100% DIY job or an experience which frustrates contractor and homeowner alike. Best wishes for a successful outcome.

Funny how no one on this thread mentioned any of the numerous business tax benefits that already cover fo a large portion of a company's investment related equipment expenses by way of capitalize costs and depreciation.

What is also funny is that someone who knows so much hasn't gotten into the trades to show us all how it is done. Imagine the example and precedent you could showcase here if that were the case?

What is stopping you from becomming a Licensed HVAC contractor in your area?

There are people who see a need not being met, they stop complaining and start offering a way to fill that need? (a real go getter those guys, but because they accepted the risk and the challenge a complainer is going to come here and say it should be free?) The go getter is looking to build a company, not squander it to a complainer? If we're being honest here?

Just because there is a (business use) write off for tax purposes doesn't mean there is not an outlay of cash. Without income there is no real benefit to write a purchase off, nor is there cash for that purchase. (putting cart before the horse only confuses the horse) Doing so with debt doesn't make matters better either. The IRS isn't giving you something for nothing.

The same difference would be to buy 40 or 50 HVAC systems to save a few bucks buying in volume only to watch that equipment rust in storage with no sales and pay annual inventory tax on that equipment and watch your savings errode mystically into thin air.

The recent statistics what do they say? (click to enlarge so you can read it)

As of Jan 2024

As of 2020:

The statistics show failure rates among HVAC companies has actually gotten 20% worse than 2020.

95% fail in the first 5 years? Maybe that's because most of them are incompetent crooks that people get wise to real quick and word gets around even quicker?

Those statistics aren't unique to the HVAC industry. Small construction companies have a similar failure rate. Most are founded by well-meaning people with trade expertise, but little business acumen.

Switching like for like is the easiest option for diy. All the info is on this thread. When I diy, I upgrade components with some of the savings. Big win. Not more complicated.

I wish I could get everything at 30% the cost of a product in service. A cup of coffee would only cost 50 cents and breakfast would be $5 bucks for eggs, bacon and hash browns, which includes the few minutes of labor to make the stuff. Hell yeah I'm in! My $1000 tooth cap would really only cost $100 for the cap and I'd just pay her a hour's worth of of labor I feel is justified at maybe $75 dollars and sounds far. I'll tell my dentist about this idea.

The USSR had a system in the 50's where everyone made the same state approved wage but laborers made slightly more than a professional. No one wanted to be a professional when a garbage collector made more, but a professional would get a better apartment and a great incentive.

Did you miss the part I mentioned where billing for an HVAC tech labor runs about $250-$300 a shop hour? An Auto repair shop goes off book hours and how a person is billed. If the tech is good and fast he may do a 2 hour job in an hour but you still get billed 2 hours. If the tech is slow and stupid he may take 3+ hours you are still billed 2 hours and the tech get fired.

I had a repair quote from a GM dealer for $2500, the part price was a $1000. I found the part for $500 on a weird web site and by the address I located it to a ST. Louis GM dealer so I called their parts department. We talked and he confirmed it's their back room website and legit, I could order it on the phone for $1000 or use the backroom site and get it for $500 and he'll ship it the same day, and I did. When asked what their cost was he told me $250, so the dealer get a 300% mark up, nice. I'd advise not using Auto repair as a comparison without facts and data, they are not the same. You are getting a GOOD DEAL from a HVAC contractor if the combined total markup by the wholesaler and contractor is only 100% compared to 300% a auto dealer charges. Bottom line is you're cheap, and I always say don't buy something you can't afford to maintain. Trade your big house with 6 tons of A/C for a small house with window Air conditioners, they're cheap.

"Bottom line is you're cheap, and I always say don't buy something you can't afford to maintain."

Rubbish! HVAC repair guys charge $400 for the average $15 capacitor replacement. And there are plenty other examples of why this business is crooked.

I'm not saying the auto repair business is much better, but look at the comparison - compare the average auto dealership with it's huge showroom and service department - quite different from the average HVAC hack. And they make very little money off new car sales - their profit is primarily used car sales and........ service!

It's still funny?

All these (more) people chimed in after those statistics. Still claiming that it's a rip off to charge this or that for a so called cheap part?

You're not buying a part -- you're paying for a service that requires a part.

The cheap part if you find it? In 2024 failure rate is 70% "within one year".

----- The risk is real ---- The excuses are easy... you're a rip off.

Uh no I am still in business and will hit the 17 year mark next year February.

How many times a year am I called to a dead unit that someone attempted to repair it DIY to save a few hundred bucks, now facing thousands due to a dead compressor?

Imagine how much more productive it would be if someone said hey I run a AC service & AC repair business every day 7am to 7pm during summer and 7am to 5pm during the winter. EVERY DAY.

Who of you here works everyday?

This is what you're buying if you live in or near Katy, Texas and you use my services.

Ray / Austin Air Companie ...

I have replaced many capacitors myself over the past 25 years on my two systems. They last many years. Yes, I got sick of getting scalped / ripped off over a "service" as you put it. Sure, they're driving out to my house, and they take of the metal cover of the condensor, and they run a quick test with their multimeter to confirm it is indeed the capacitor after they've quickly confirmed the unit was receiving the correct line voltage and the contactor pulls in with its 24v call from the thermostat. This only takes a few minutes. They grab a new run cap off their truck that matches the MFD rating, pop it in, and with 20 mins they're done. But they'll charge the full hour of course. And will they charge the $10 or $15 or less that the capacitor costs? Heck no. They'll quadruple the price (at least) and then charge you at least a couple hundred more on top of that for their "time". It's probably much more now, but I wouldn't know, since I stopped paying the for such easy cap swap outs over about 15-20 years ago.

Again, YouTube has everything a person needs to know to do the job with a simple mutimeter from Home Depot and a run capacitor from Amazon. Or if you need it immediately, a local Ace Hardware. As mentioned, I've done this kind of thing for years: replacing condensor fan motors, blower motors, fan capacitors, a blown circuit breaker (yeah, f-u to the super rip-off electricians too), and other similar simple repairs. I've also installed a male/female pvc screw adapter that attaches to a garden hose to blow out my own drain line so I don't have to depend on some AC company to do it, and potentially crack my 28 year old underslab PVC drain line with if they get sloppy with their compressed air.

I've saved myself countless thousands of dollars over the years with very simple DIY work. No, I'm not "cheap". I'm just an average person who understands that I don't need to listen to the BS scare mongering by AC companies, car repair shops, appliance repair companies, etc, who all feel threatened when savvy consumers realize they're getting screwed. Consumers just need to put in some simple research, spend some time watching a few step by step videos to understand exactly what is involved, take any needed precautions, and do the work themselves.

It's easy stuff, not rocket science. Anyone who has access to the internet and YouTube and who doesn't try to learn how to save themseves a fck ton of money over the years (or simply chooses not too, excluding elderly or disabled people) almost deserves to be gouged by unscrupulous AC companies in my opinion.

This only takes a few minutes.

You've spent far longer arguing / complaining in this thread. What do you have to gain by that?

Anything you buy you're getting ripped off under the terms you post here.

So are you going to start raising your own beef, vegetable garden, dig your own well for water, put in a sewer system, pump your own crap, buy a generator to produce your own power, then build a battery factory so you can provide yourself a place to store the power you produce?

Then you need a new house addition so you build your own lumber mill to mill your own lumber... because your property has the wood on it and it's essentially free and you're oh so tired of getting ripped off by other people who make a living off of you?

Where does it end? This is how capitalism works.

Imagine if what you do for a living was put under a microscope of how much of a rip off your paycheck is for what you provide for others enjoyment.

Using just a one man shop as an example I'll break down of what it really takes to replacing that $15 dollar capacitor. And congratulations replacing your own capacitor, but if it wasn't bad and didn't have a bleeder resistor it might have knocked you on your ass but you survived.

You're not just paying time to troubleshoot and replace that capacitor but what he knows, and a whole host of other time consuming tasks you don't see related to the job. Time isn't free for the other time consumer items like windshield time. Should a UPS driver only be paid for the time running the package to the door? Other tasks like ordering, or picking up that capacitor and stocking it don't happen in a blink of the eye. Bookkeeping services after the job posting all details of the job to stay out of jail, take time, accounting services to determine net profit from the job to pay quarterly estimated taxes including self employment taxes and the list goes on. The man should be allowed to bank some retirement money and don't forget the bathroom breaks.

You do take bathroom breaks, does your company dock you the time? Do you have a employer matched IRA? You're the employer so pay your share to give that guy the same standards you enjoy from an employer. Paid vacation time is built into the price if that's OK, and how about the holidays, no pay for the HVAC guy because his class level doesn't matter to the greedy sweat shop employer/homeowner I guess.

By those calculations, a physician or dentist should charge you $10,000 as you walk in the door! Let's get real here. Semi-skilled tradesmen charge whatever the market will bear. Uninformed consumers with too much disposable income are mainly to blame for paying these outrageous bills!

By those calculations, a physician or dentist should charge you $10,000 as you walk in the door!

They skew what they charge you by setting an appt. You're on time for the appointment, but you first sit in a room with others that are waiting to see the physician. How long do you sit in this room waiting for the physician?

30 minutes, an hour? Then they call your name and you then are moved to a new waiting room, where you'll sit naked or half naked for another 30 minutes or more.

Finally the physician comes in, changes a few words with you and total time spent with you? mere minutes most of the time.

Say your bill is $250. He spends 10 minutes with you. Simple math $1500 an hour.

Well I got insurance so my cost is / was $50 for an office visit? How much you pay per year for that insurance? (this doesn't change what the physician makes per hour? uh no)

To get to what that visit actually cost you? cost of insurance annually divided by number of visits in a year PLUS your out of pocket costs for what insurance didn't cover.

But hey it's far easier to make comparisons without doing any math?

So the physician is charging you $1500 an hour? Divine retribution?

HVAC Tech: I resolved the problem with you AC not turning on. It was a loose wire. I reconnected it and you are all set. Here is the bill.

Homeowner: What?? This bill is for $400 for 5 minutes of work. I went to my doctor last week and he spent 10 minutes with me and only charged me $250!

HVAC Tech: Yes I know, I used to be a doctor.

"But hey it's far easier to make comparisons without doing any math?"

And its far easier to make comparisons between completely unrelated things. The true value of healthcare insurance coverage is not just to assist with payments on some miscellaneous billing charges for occassional checkup visits, and pretending that is the only value you are getting from your annual premiums.

Rather, it is primarily to cap billing charges for catestrophic heathcare costs should something very serious occur. These major events would typically bankrupt most people. Same with other kinds of insurance like home and auto, where coverage may be hit or miss, based on elected coverage, for minor dings or if a coconut falling from a a tree. But if a hurricate blows off your roof or if you are involved in a major multi-car accident with serious injuries, that is where the real value of your insurance kicks in. And that is primarily what people are paying for in their premiums.

So obviously insurance coverage is not the same as an AC installation and servicing. The quality of the installation is important, no doubt, but its a one and done situation. I don't want or need to be overcharged on the "chance" the AC tech "may" need to come back to service their mistakes. The work an installer does should be warranteed as part of the base cost, and if mistakes are made, that should come out of the installer's own profit, rather than bloating up instllation costs to pre-pay for future service visit to cover (likely) installer mistatkes. And padding invoices with want amounts to "prepaid service calls," which may or may not ever happen, does not benefit consumers. And of course, some installers will always find a way to make the issue seem like its something novel or unique, or blame the manufacturer for the issue, and thus claim itsn't covered under their standard installation labor warranty and then (double) charge the customer for the additional diagnostic and repair labor anyway.

In the end, when we meet our maker, we'll only be judged by ourselves. And if we spend our lives squeezing naive people by knowingly overcharging them, that will haunt your soul.

HVAC Tech: I resolved the problem with you AC not turning on. It was a loose wire. I reconnected it and you are all set. Here is the bill.

Homeowner: What?? This bill is for $400 for 5 minutes of work. I went to my doctor last week and he spent 10 minutes with me and only charged me $250!

HVAC Tech: Yes I know, I used to be a doctor.

We scheduled your visit with the dispatcher. 10-15 minutes to make sure the tech that had the skills to diagnose your problem would be available for the time slot that you wanted.

The tech spent an hour to restock his truck to make sure he'd have the most likely part(s) you would need to get your system back up and functional in the least amount of (your time) as possible. (On the internet "fantasy island" trucks are stocked with parts on there own, no real work here.)

The tech left his previous job an hour before your appointment to ensure that battling traffic among other issues he would be at your house on time.

The tech knowledgeable enough to know a loose wire from part changing mania... yeah that's not worth anything?

The tech after completing your "loose wire" fiasco then drove another hour back the other way.

The dispatcher: she doesn't get paid. She's free too.

The manager: no pay for him either.

The Tech: his knowledge and honesty for reconnecting a loose wire?

Two sides to every coin as it were, unless you're a magician.

"The tech spent an hour to restock his truck"

Oh no, here we go again with the "parts on the truck" whine.

Oh no, here we go again with the "parts on the truck" whine.

Oh no, here we go again with the "it's too hard to get licensed" and start a new company of our own because we know too much.

Still two sides to every coin? yes.