Most here will not click on links. You can use the ”Photo” button to post .jpegs that will be easier to see and get more responses.

Apples, strawberries and loquats are not the same fruit. Small guys pushing you to use RTA junk is to be avoided. Their prices just doubled for one. And they are selling you ship and calling it shinola for another. Big guys who call themselves design build, but the "designer" works for them, are to be avoided. You first need an independent kitchen designer, to create a design. Then you can go around with those specs and get close loquats to loquats pricing.

None of the pricing sounds at all surprising for a 2026 kitchen redo. It will probably be about 1/3 higher by the time you are done, due to the instability of the labor and materials market.

Sorry I will delete this post and recreate with jpeg images later today when I have time.

No need to delete. Just ADD to the original post.

Ah right. Just fixed the OP.

I'm also attaching pics of the existing space (I stole these from the listing photos -- they presented it really well).

I'm also attaching pics of the existing space (I stole these from the listing photos -- they presented it really well).

This is an easy one, design wise. You just widen the connection between the dining and kitchen, with pocket french doors for when you don't want to see the kitchen mess. The DR becomes where all your meals are eaten. The kitchen can easily have counters under the window in the breakfast area, and get the cooking zone off of the island, and the DW actually next to the sink. The opposite wall is all tall storage and small appliances and refrigeration.

The specific details to actually make it fit the actual house rather than look like some flip of a 2009 McMansion are what will take the money and skill. Because all of those renderings look basic uninspired, and kinda awful.

Thanks. Yep definitely plan on running counters under the window. One major design choice I'm unsettled on is whether to turn that exterior door into a window (I'll lose cabinet space) or just make it a pure wall with no window. As you can see in the Lowes drawing, they put a window there and the design is centered around those 2 windows around the hood and range.

Just a few follow up questions.

1) When you say "DW actually next to the sink" it makes it sound like it's not next to the sink currently but it is?

2) When you say "widen the connection between dining and kitchen" you mean widening the entryway as opposed to taking down the wall entirely?

3) "The opposite wall is all tall storage and small appliances and refrigeration." I think that's what the Lowes drawing shows. They did put the microwave next to the fridge in that drawing. The designer originally put the microwave under the hood (above the range), but thought it'd block people eating at the counter from a view of the would-be window

4) "Because all of those renderings look basic uninspired, and kinda awful." Do you mean the layout is awful? I think the color choices and style of cabinets will be what makes it fit the 1927 tudor vibe, but the layout itself may not. I'm trying to get the layout/architecture nailed down first before thinking about style of cabinets and color choices, etc...

One of the drawings shows the DW around the corner. NEVER do that. It's awful.

Yes, just widen the opening to a 48" cased opening, centered in that wall, with pocket doors. You may need that to be a 2x6 framing, as you say that's a load bearing wall. Having a kitchen with no separation from eating is not a pleasant thing when you're trying to have a more formal meal with colleagues or a holiday. Get the connection, without the mess, by having the doors be able to close it off.

Lowes can not design their way out of a wet paper bag. Hire an independent kitchen designer, asap.

Shaker isn't Tudor. And it's trite, awful, and overdone, for a historic era house. You can still have a modern functional space, without having it look like a Walmart design you purchased off the shelf on the clearance end cap. Which all of those do. It's not just the layouts. But that's part of it. There's a lot of room to make it special within the base framework of what I outlined above.

Box stores are not going to get you where you need to be. Not even close. The design is THE important part. The space planning cabinet box layout is about half of an overall kitchen design. And you don't even get that done well at a box store. Find a good local kitchen design firm. If you share your location, maybe someone has some recommendations.

I'm in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I thought the design (excluding cabinet and color choices) would be straightforward giving the limited space?

Do you guys know where I can find independent kitchen designers in my area? I tried searching for it, but most hits are for design & build firms.

In general, I'm wearing of hiring any services. Had some terrible experiences with contractors so fast and I'm having some serious trust issues. My worry with a designer is they'll design something that's not fitting and I won't have the intuition/eyes to spot it.

@Minardi w.r.t to your "shaker" comment -- the stylistic choices for cabinets are not part of this drawing and are TBD. the drawings are are just purely for the layout and lowes designer put in standard cabinets to fill in th drawing. just wanted to clarify that since I think the "shaker" comment is only relevant for cabinet styles are not for the layout?

I've been burned by GC's, worked with crappy designers, and lived in old historic homes. Your question of picking a design build or GC isn't really the right equation at this point. Things not to do - use a Lowe's designer or have a contractor design your kitchen. What you should be doing is more open ended research that will eventually lead you to the right person to design your kitchen and the right trades people to do the work.

Invest your time in interviewing lots of people:

- Start interviewing kitchen designers. Have them come to your home, give you their pitch, toss out ideas. You will start to see if any jive with you and your gut will tell you if they know what they are talking about. I lived in a 175 year old house and this process was very educational. Some people had respect for the space and others did not. Some ideas were really good and others just cookie cutter BS that would lead to terrible flow and cramped space.

- Start interviewing higher end custom cabinet builders who have been around for a while. Find ones who really make their own cabinets and are not just vending products and other lines of cabinetry. Learn about their cabinets, but also get names of kitchen designers they have worked with and contractors they have worked with. You can network a TON with these guys.

(When I did this, I learned that the owner of the best cabinet making company, which had been around for 60 years, was a certified kitchen designer. Her ideas were far better than the other designers I talked to. She did our kitchen design, her crew did the install, and she recommended the other contractors I needed to use.)

I just googled these guys in Ann Arbor - https://youngcabinetry.com/ They make their own custom millwork cabinets. Meet with them. When you do tell them .you are shopping for cabinetmakers, let them know you don't have a design yet. Ask what designers they work with. What GCs they work with.

Yes, your home is historic, but it has also been updated - I see central air in the dining room wall. New windows. Don't limit yourself by only talking to contractors who have worked on historic homes. When I tried to go this route, most were only taking on million dollar historic home renovations. I was small potatoes.

For now, tell us more about how you use a kitchen, how many people are in your household, how you want to eat, and where. How much is kitchen storage an issue for you?

I am in general agreement with Minardi - don't take out the wall entirely but do a cased opening (arched ONLY if identical shaped arches already exist elsewhere in the home!!) which is far more historical. Totally blowing out the wall will be a modern era mistake. Just dead end your kitchen cabinetry into the sides of the cased opening. None of this weird tiny peninsula that the Lowes designer did- your dining table is 2 steps away from that, so it's redundant as well as odd looking.

Here's a similar example from the Avery Cottage - your cased opening should have sides to it, maybe 12" wide - she was copying existing arches in her Tudor home which did not have side walls but I feel like they ought to be there for best aesthetics even in this case!

I feel you could go either way with the current exterior door, as you already have light from 2 sides/2 windows in the space once we are including the breakfast nook. Personally I love maximum light in a space so I would turn it into a window. Drawers will give you the storage you are anxious about, without the heavy feel that ranks of upper cabinets add, especially when they are blocking window light. The general Lowes design with the range between windows is pretty good, although they seem to have altered the bfast nook window into a different shape so it wouldn't actually be flanked by identical windows IRL unless you changed the nook window. You'll need more drawers below etc, I am just talking about counter shapes and appliance placement. Not even talking design elements yet but definitely don't do shaker :) Studio Dearborn has an amazing kitchen she calls Tudor With A Twist for some high end tudor-yet-not-slavishly-historical inspiration.

@Kendrah

I'm having a hard time finding an independent designer in town (Ann Arbor). When I tried, search results are usually filled with designers from D&B firms.

I can also start sourcing cabinet makers, but everyone seems to say their brand is the best in the industry, so idk who's actually quality and who's overselling their credentials. I will check out youngcabinetry.

w.r.t to new windows, central air. indeed, the home has many updates. It has a sunroom additional built in 1986, ducts for central heating (I don't have AC yet), and many windows are updated. The dining room window is still the original metal windows.

I just want to clarify some terminology here. There are 2 forms of "design" right? The layout (where to put cabinets, windows, sinks, fridge, oven, hood, microwave, dishwasher, etc...) and stylistic choices (e.g., color, style of cabinets, etc...)? Is a designer usually in charge of both? I had a GC tell me they can handle the layout/functional stuff (what he referred to as "engineering") but recommended a "designer" for the stylistic stuff.

To answer your other questions:

how many people are in your household? just me and my 10 year old, and I don't anticipate having more family members. I don't think I will be in Ann Arbor when he goes to college, so I will probably sell this house in 7-8 years. So I don't want to go too crazy with top of the line cabinets with lifetime warranties and considerations for resale is very important, along with satisfying the more immediate need for a more functional kitchen

how you want to eat? and where? since we're getting rid of the breakfast nook, and probably won't use the formal dining place much, I'd ideally want some countertop space to eat on

How much is kitchen storage an issue for you? right now, it's a huge issue. I've maximized all my cabinet and countertop space. I have some smaller appliances just sitting on the floor or stowed away in the basement because there's nowhere to put it currently.

@Julie S

Yeah I'm on the fence about removing the wall entirely. The doorway between my foyer and living room and living room and dining room are arched (you can see in one of the pics I attached previously).

I do ideally want an eat-in counter (hence the tiny peninsulas) because I don't think we're going to use the formal dining space much, but if it's really a stylistic eyesore, then I probably won't have it.

The lowes rendering is just a skeleton and is meant to just show the layout and precisely the style for cabinets and windows. I won't be making any changes to the existing breakfast nook window. I think the range in that location makes the most sense and is probably the only feasible location for it. The dishwasher will probably have to stay where it is currently, to the left of the sink if you're facing it. he put the microwave next to the fridge because he said if he put it above the range, then it'd block the person at the counter's view to the window.

One of the GCs drew 2 preliminary designs for me with an arch (I assume "DW" means dishwasher in his drawings but i have no idea why you'd put the dishwasher across the room. it's not going to be functional for me so it's not going to work. I need it next to the sink)

option 2) pass through option

option 3) no pass through, single wide arch

Also forgot to mention that if you look at the current photos of the kitchen space, you'll see soffits (about 14"). Those will go. I popped off a light and looked inside and don't see any ductwork or plumbing. There's some electrical that need to be moved but that's it.

I don't really understand why they built the soffits in the first place

Linda Larisch at DDK Kitchen Design Group, Paige Maurer of Paige Lee Interiorsis where I'd start. Don't worry about "cabinets" yet. There are a lot of good cabinets. Less good designers.

Once you work out a design, look in the NARI directory for good contractor partners to do the work to make the design happen.

Hey David! I'm amused that you keep refering to it as the FORMAL dining room... it's not a huge house, this is the ONLY dining room :) and it is a perfectly good place to consume meals, right next to the kitchen, with plenty of connection to the kitchen once you put a SINGLE wide arch in between them. I get the impression that maybe you are just two dudes who perch for "meals" and shovel the food and run? A teeny peninsula merely for the sake of this very casual style of eating is not a good reason to squeeze a peninsula into this particular floorplan. Here's my take. Wide arch, 14"ish side walls to it, no peninsula, DW left of sink. I put a 4' round table in the dining area for ease of movement past, and a wide but shallow storage cabinet/hutch on the opposite wall, and an extra seat tucked in the corner for guests. If you never have guests over you could go down to a 3 foot table.

David - I understand having trust issues re: contractors due to past experiences. I've also had terrible experiences - and that was after doing a lot of due diligence before hiring + engaging the contractor that had the highest or second highest bid (not hiring hacks).

I need to finalize the design for my kitchen renovation. My neighbor is an interior designer and is just finishing the renovation of her entire first floor. She has offered to design my kitchen - I need to find out if she is an IKD.

I am also going to see how well her contractor performed the work at her house - maybe he will have done an outstanding job and I'll use him. However, I've used a contractor who did work for two of my law partners (and both recommended him) - and he did not do a good job for me (I had to have work that he had done ripped out and done a second time by a new contractor)+ he had issues while doing a second job with one of my partners (his wife decided to fire him one afternoon).

I am so nervous about hiring anyone - especially when the kitchen will have the largest scope of work + be the most expensive out of the projects I've had done over the past three years.

@Rainbow Colors

Thanks. Those 2 are a few hours away, or are you suggesting I get a remote designer? I was thinking it might be better to get someone local so they can see the space in person

@Julie S

Ah yes, let me clarify. i use the terms "dining room" and "formal dining room" interchangeably. it's just I feel like most people don't really use their dining room these days if they have an eat-in countertop unless they have guests over or for some other formal occasion. I could definitely be wrong though.

That rectangular space in my sunroom could serve as a dining space as well but it's a bit far away. I've turned it into a couch area.

" I get the impression that maybe you are just two dudes who perch for "meals" and shovel the food and run?" you're exactly right lol :). my family line doesn't have the best table manners, especially me and my dad, and it's rubbing off on my kiddo. I have a hard time sitting still in casual eat at home settings and sometimes I'm just eating while cooking or doing something else.

thanks for the drawing. I'm just wondering if there's an aesthetic aversion towards having that peninsula?

@dani_m08

to be fair, I did go with the cheapest option for my bathroom remodel and this guy was also an acquaintance so it was very awkward, but this was an absolute headache and in retrospect, not worth the $10-20k savings whatsoever. in my defense, he does sound knowledgable.... at least until I started looking into stuff on my own and realized he was doing a bunch of stuff incorrectly

what is IKD? interior kitchen designer?

I think in general no matter how much I vet someone, I'll probably still have to research everything myself so I can make sure they're doing things correctly, even if I hire the most expensive person in town

Re: the peninsula, it's so stubby and shoved in the corner that it feels really forced. If the room were rotated 90 degrees and you had room for a 6-8 foot long peninsula, I would be fine with that. Forcing one in that spot reeks of bad design choices to me, espcially with an arch overlapping it. Not just aesthetics, but what makes sense and feels natural in this particular space & adjoining areas.

@Julie S

I see, yeah that makes sense. I think when I first saw it, I had the same thought. it seems like something that's overfit to a family of 2...

wdyt about the placement of the microwave? if we get rid of the peninsula, it might make sense to put the microwave back above the range since the reason for not putting it there in the first place is that "it blocks the line of sight to the window from someone sitting at the peninsula"

The peninsula is awful. It doesn't fit the room, or the house. Eat at a table, like people who have the time to use forks and knives. Otherwise, eat a piece of toast over the sink and run, if that's your breakfast. No point in either dirtying a dish, or sitting.

The two I listed are the only Master Kitchen and Bath Designers in the state of Michigan. It's worth making an appointment and a trip to talk to them. You need way more help than you think you do here, and you are off in a few wrong directions. Like the peninsula, and trying to do something that doesn't really suit the home. Something more unfitted would be the better option.

Re: the microwave, I like it very well at the left of the fridge. Usually microwaved stuff is coming out of the fridge to reheat or freezer to nuke. Easy peasy. I and most on here absolutely loathe microwaves over ranges unless there is truly no other location it could possibly be. Don't do that to a lovely little historic home, I beg you. Virtually any other kind of hood is preferable for effective venting, for aesthetics, for a more expensive and considered looking end result.

Talk with the qualified professionals that Rainbow found you. If they don’t service your area, they probably have recommendations from someone else in their NKBA chapter who does. I’ve met Linda, and she is a treasure. You’d be lucky to work with her.

@Julie S I think microwave over range only accomplishes compactness and isn't great for aesthetic appeal. either than that, I think that place to the left of the fridge makes the most sense unless I want to waste precious countertop space, which I don't.

@Rainbow Colors

@Monique

I will reach out them tomorrow. just a quick question though -- what is the general feeling here about using a remote designer? how important is it for them to be able to physically see the space? I'm all for remote work in general, but I can't help but feel it's better if they can see the space in person for a home remodeling design

You are only planning on living in the home for 7 or 8 years. The kitchen cabinets look like they are in good condition. It is a small kitchen and you lack storage. Whatever you invest in the kitchen will not add much value to the home. 50% ROI when you are replacing a worn out kitchen, less when replacing a decent kitchen. By adding cabinets that are not as nice as the current cabinets you will lower the ROI further.

A couple of ideas that I might consider. . .

Widen the doorway to the dining area (archway to match others in the home, leaving 2' on each side.

Keep the current cabinets. Leave the exterior door. Use the two cabinets that flank your range and move the range to the wall between the exit door and the dining area window. Add matching cabinets to build out the cabinetry under the dining area window to the dining room wall.. Add a microwave over the range. Space saving is important with a small kitchen.

With the wide opening to the dining area it will feel like an extension of the kitchen and less like a separate space

You can add a sideboard or other furniture to the dining room if more storage is needed.

Adding 5' of cabinets is a lot less expensive than getting all new cabinets.

Not changing the exterior door - replacing with a window - having to fix the exterior wall will most likely save quite a bit as well and you won't be adding another useless corner cabinet to the room.

The other option - less expensive still is leave all the cabinets exactly where they are and add shelving units in the dining area of the kitchen - industrial pipe shelving and butcher block top

Can have taller shelving like a bakers rack against the wall and lower shelving (open or closed) under the window. The microwave can sit on the bakers rack. You would have the smaller doorway to the dining area, but you could learn to eat at the table and it would add a fair amount of additional storage. You can also store the small table and chairs and remove the shelving when you stage to sell. The kitchen was "good enough" when you bought the home and you probably didn't notice that there wasn't ample storage. Neither will the next buyer.

I am will Jennifer. Keep those beautiful cabinets!

I would leave everything as is except to move the stove to the wall where the fridge was and recognfigure the existing peninsula cabinets to make it work.

I’d move the fridge between the door and window and add new cabinets under the window. Either have someone build them to match the existing or find a vintage buffet or other cabinet to fit under the window for that ”unfitted look”

You will save yourself SO much money and headache, and it will look way better imho since it fits the Tudor style of your home

.

Those cabinets were installed in 2014. They have a nice finish indeed, but they're cheap quality cabinets. I might have considered keeping the cabinets though if it weren't for the 14" soffit, which I intend to remove so I can get extra storage

Jennifer makes an excellent point about keeping the door. You already are dreading dealing with contractors. So keep it simple - don’t create the need for finding a masonry contactor for the exterior of your home. Keep down the cost and headache.

And she is 100-percent correct that adding a big corner cabinet is not as big of a storage increase as you might think.

I’d put a range between the door and window so you can easily vent a hood outside.

My big question is where to relocate the HVAC duct in the dining room wall.

I’d open up the wall between the two rooms. Get wood floors in the kitchen finished to match the rest of the first floor.

I tore out 2 year old cabimets to put in ones that go to the ceiling. The most wasteful thing I have ever done and totally worth it for the storage.

I'm not too concerned about the cost of removing that door. based on the quotes I'm getting it's around $2-$3k which is small fee in the context of a kitchen remodel -- though it'll probably be a bit higher if I'm going to put a window there. it's going to look very awkward keeping that door there if i move the range next to it. i am concerned about the quality of work though and whether they can do a good job. it's a brick tudor, but luckily the previous homeowners has a stash of leftover bricks so matching the existing brick shouldn't be problematic

that HVAC duct can be turned into a floor vent. i'm not 100% sure that there's no duct going up on that wall onto the second though. If there is, that poses another challenge, but perhaps the widened entry could just end there if there is a duct. that's probably something I can easily find out if I look at where my ducts on the second floor are