@roseseek Sounds wonderful! Should I remind you here or?

Regards, Ian

Here's fine. You can PM me or post.

Appreciate it @roseseek!

Will do.

Re your comment earlier in the thread about a grafted rose's not being able to sucker (except, unfortunately, from the rootstock), this isn't necessarily true. Most of the roses I've bought over the years have been grafted, but, since I wanted them on their own roots, I planted them with the graft 2-3 inches below the surface. In this way, the rose can put out roots from the scion, and often does so.

Another suggestion for suckering roses, once bloomers, along with Paul's suggestions: 'Blanche Vibert', a white Moss with a Gallica-like habit, a thick, vigorous suckerer, also 'Belle Hélène', pink Gallica, which some critic once had the gall to call ordinary--it is NOT--and, and... There are too many others. I have many Gallicas in my garden, and they're pretty much all wonderful. Once flowering, though, but that's not something I care about. I have Teas for that.

I think it's worth mentioning that although certain roses have a genetic propensity to send out suckers/runners, there are environmental factors that determine if, and how much a rose behaves this way — so many climate factors will determine how much a particular variety sends out suckers. My experience may not be the same as yours. Choosing a variety that is generally known to produce suckers will probably ensure that you have the experience you expect. But be careful if you bring 'Charles de Mills' into your garden — it's a thug. You can literall find suckers coming up 10, 20 feet or more from the parent plant. This can be problematic in the future, when you discover that you have a tangle of multiple varieties that you can only identify when they are in flower. Root barriers can be very worthwhile.

That said, you can explore most of the Gallica clan and find exemplary varieties therein. Most all will gradually form mannerly thickets that present well in a garden setting. There are few (if any) real duds in the Gallica family (my opinion). Some of the spectacular striped varieties, though beautiful, tend to be much weaker growers (I'm looking at you, 'Tricolore de Flandre'), but if you have an ideal site and rich soil conditions, that won't matter too much. I regard 'Tuscany Superb' as one of the most beautiful roses ever created. I encourage you to consider it.

@Ian Stewart: Zone 6 Western Kentucky, USA Thanks, I am aware that there is considerable confusion about R. foliolosa, its "autheticity" and its behavior in breeding. I know I published something about my plant, suggesting that it may be a hybrid, but that was only a hunch, based on what has been published about the species (and the fact that my plant didn't really match descriptions to a T). But what I do know, after years of using my plant as a breeder, is that it behaved consistently and (relatively) predictably. 107-09-10 is a good example: exactly what I would expect from such a cross, and the seedlings all looked pretty much the same, suggesting that the foliolosa I used is probably a species.

Regarding the combinations where R. foliolosa is combined with R. rugosa: Yes, Basye's Purple is an unexpected oddity. You wouldnt expect a deep beetroot purple from such a cross, and yet that's what happened. And it happened for another breeder (Nancy Steen) with 'Ann Endt'.

I witnessed the same phenomenon when making the cross 79-02 resulting in "Purple Folio-Chief". It seems to me that because I got a result so similar to 'Ann Endt' and 'Basye's Purple' that the genetics of my foliolosa must be very, very similar to what other people were using. Perhaps R. foliolsa is far more variable in appearance than the published descriptions present. Who knows. I can't say one way or another, for certain. I should look and see if my plant of it still exists — it has been buried in Blackberry brambles for over a decade now. (Gee, thanks Luther Burbank! *sarcasm*)

I grew a very happy own root Ispahan from Heirloom Roses for over two decades at my previous garden. I do not recall any suckering, unless you consider new canes close to the base of the plant to be suckering. I suppose it is suckering of a sort.

I only grew a few of the once blooming European OGRs in that climate because there was not much winter chill there. I did not notice much suckering among the damasks I tried, with the exception of Rose de Rescht which did indeed sucker in my garden. Since RdR did not behave that way for some others I would guess it depends on conditions.

Gallicas and rugosas though, yes.

@Melissa Beautiful suggestions! I've had my eye on 'Blanche Vibert', I find it's loosely formed button eye somewhat unattractive though. Perhaps I could do future breeding with that rose to get a rose with:

White, repeat blooming, green button eye form, fragrant and suckering. And, of course disease resistance. Though this is quite a feat in rose breeding, I'd say...

@Paul Barden, totally. Environment is Definitely a role.

That said, I'm taking your warning for Charles de Mills. I love suckering roses, but so aggressively like CdM? I'll pass..For now. 🫣

@Rosefolly Thanks for the comment! And perhaps is was suckering (only modestly, seemingly?). I find it somewhat odd that the Damask class of roses aren't very good at suckering? The parents to the damask class are pretty good at suckering at least. Here is a picture of one of my many suckers from my found rose. I also think that it may be the damask 'Bella Donna'.

These images aren't a great example of a sucker but are the only ones I have.

@Melissa Beautiful suggestions! I've had my eye on 'Blanche Vibert', I find it's loosely formed button eye somewhat unattractive though. Perhaps I could do future breeding with that rose to get a rose with:

White, repeat blooming, green button eye form, fragrant and suckering. And, of course disease resistance. Though this is quite a feat in rose breeding, I'd say...

@Paul Barden, totally. Environment is Definitely a role.

That said, I'm taking your warning for Charles de Mills. I love suckering roses, but so aggressively like CdM? I'll pass..For now. 🫣

@Rosefolly Thanks for the comment! And perhaps is was suckering (only modestly, seemingly?). I find it somewhat odd that the Damask class of roses aren't very good at suckering? The parents to the damask class are pretty good at suckering at least. Here is a picture of one of my many suckers from my found rose. I also think that it may be the damask 'Bella Donna'.

These images aren't a great example of a sucker but are the only ones I have.

Did my comment post two times!? I lost internet while uploading it and now it's funked up 😆. Apologies everyone

I second Paul's warning about CdM. My first three old European garden roses (eons ago) were Cardinal de Richelieu (whose color still entrances me. Blue for You approximates it quite often, WITH incredible scent and ALL summer long. PLUS, it doesn't eat the yard.); Camieux (which has slowly died, tossing me its middle finger all three times from three different sources, so it either hates Southern California or me. Either way, I shan't waste water, time, money nor room on it again.); and Charles de Mills. Richelieu ate the yard, flowered heavily each year and mildewed with a vengeance. Charles de Mills nearly required Napalm to rid the yard of it and it ONLY flowered in the San Fernando Valley if packed in ice for weeks over winter. Even then, only the shoot packed in ice would flower and only ONE flower. Even with those warnings, I found home for DOZENS of its suckers. NEVER again.

RE Kim's remarks about 'Camaïeux': I had a plant of it from Pickering, probably budded onto R. laxa, as that's what they used for their Gallicanae types. It grew reasonably well for 5 years and then slowly declined and then vanished. At no point did it ever exceed 4 or 5 canes. But the flowers were glorious. Good old 'Rosa Mundi' is a much better performer, though it lacks the bloom sophistication of some of the other striped Gallicas.

And yes — 'Cardinal de Richelieu' is a magnificent rose. The color is almost entirely unique in the genus. I only wish it wasn't as prone to Blackspot as it is here.

Haha.. :p Charles de Mills seriously seems like a nightmare 😬

As beautiful as them deep colored blooms are..Pass. I love suckering roses but this? Nope.

Perhaps if there was a good way to suppress suckers? Maybe a container.

On the other hand, today I had me a very long, nice winter walk. It snowed a Lot. I tried to find some wild roses but still none. I think I've checked all of our farm land at this point, multiple times too! No wild roses. Maybe a multiflora here amd there but even that is rare. Are wild roses somewhat rare? Besides the invasives, ahem, Rugosa, Multiflora.

@Ian Stewart: Zone 6 Western Kentucky, USA There is a product that (as far as I know) is still manufactured the provides a root barrier to reign in unruly plants like "Chuck The Invader". Alternatively — and undoubtedly less expensively — you can take a large plastic yard waste bucket (32 gallons or larger) and cut off the bottom, plant the bucket in your garden (just the top inch or two above the soil) refill it with the soil you removed, and plant Old Chuck in the bucket. That way it will be restricted to the alloted space and no more (it won't travel underground deeper than the bucket).

I won't deny that 'Charles de Mills' can produce some of the most beautiful blooms of the entire OGR group, but the plant itself leaves a great deal to be desired.

Taking a screenshot of this to remember, great tip @Paul Barden!

I'll take a moment to say hello back to you, Ian, and tell you how much I've been enjoying this thread you started. I second Paul's warnings on the difficulty of distinguishing suckering roses from their neighbors. I remember going through an area of rose bed flagging 'Pink Leda''s canes while in bloom: this rose is massively invasive...beautiful, too, of course, far more vigorous, in my experience, than its sport or sport parent 'Leda'. In the long run, 'Pink Leda' won. It may help if you plant roses with different characteristics--habit, canes, foliage, thorns--side by side, so as to be able to distinguish them where they're not in bloom.

A rose grower can go on forever about wonderful roses, suckering or not; I won't. But there are a lot of roses out there. I imagine you're having a lot of fun.

@Melissa I've had a great time here myself, too. Very good thread indeed!

Pink Leda, quite an interesting rose. Will be noting this on the list of extreme suckering roses (which I do not like, but I do love a modest suckerer)

It's kind of funny that the sport doesn't sucker as much too

I'd hate to post another thread so I'll continue this one.

I have a question about 'Madame Hardy', where on earth do I buy it!?

I see that RVR rarely has it and same goes for High Country Roses.

On top of it rarely being available in the U.S., on the internet I mean, Europe seems to have it for online purchase a lot 😣

Greenmantle Nursery carries Madame Hardy. Marissa is wonderful. Google it and give her a call. She does business by mail.

@Sheila THANK you! I never knew that place existed, I'll try & buy from her (she even carries a lot of specie roses)

Paul, years ago I did the barrel-with-the-bottom-cut-off planting technique. In fact I thought it up all by myself and truly thought I had invented it. A case of convergent evolution. For me it worked for a few years until the canes became so overcrowded they choked the soil, then the rose declined. All the suckering that they would have done in a larger space took place instead in the space of a trash barrel. I suppose you could keep removing canes from the barrel, which I admit I did not do, at least not enough.

A longtime own-root fan, I have come to be of the opinion that there are some roses that really do better grafted. I've said it before, but I still miss Pickering. I don't know of any other nurseries that graft old roses onto multiflora. Perhaps there is someone out there who does.

Pickering didn't graft OGRs onto multiflora. They used Laxa (as did Palatine).

If we are going to be discussing suckering OGRs, let me put in a word for the spinossisimas.

@Rosefolly z5 Yes, it's fair to say that the Trash Can Root Barrier is far from an ideal solution, and in time the plant is likely to choke itself out without periodic maintenance (dig it out and remove half of it, and start over). But it's still better than allowing a sucking thug to completely infiltrate a garden and create a mess that only herbicide will fix.

@mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY) Is correct: Pickering used Laxa as a rootstock to bud most of the OGRs onto. Joel Schraven told me this in person one day.

Huh, Laxa! I had been told it was multiflora. Well, we live and learn.

Thanks to you both.

And, they imported the stocks annually for propagation. That was one of the final nails in their coffin. OUR import restrictions demanded all parts of the plant originate in the same country. Stocks from Europe and bud wood from Canada wouldn't work for the USDA. I'm not supporting nor denigrating that issue as I DO miss having a reputable nursery which indexes every rose they sell, I've sought them out when possible. My R. Primula is from a Pickering plant as is my Gloire de Dijon.

@Ian_Stewart you may find one or two of your liking on this source. https://alexandernurseries.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Alexander-Nurseries-ROSE-RETAIL-availability-list-10.31.25-1.pdf https://alexandernurseries.com/retail-rose-availability-list/

@roseseek Thanks for the link! I looked through their list of roses, amazing selection.

Rose collecting can be Expensive, I've spent well enough on roses this year alone with no end in sight. And this isn't helping 🤣

Jokes aside, I've been looking at R. Fedtschenkoana as a candidate for my rose collection. Beautiful foliage, one of the handful of truly remontant wild roses, suckers, fragrant, and one of the parents to the damask class (apparently).

Perhaps the "Perfect" rose can't be created after all, but has been here all along, the wild roses. The simplest of form, perfected by evolution for hundreds of thousands of years.

Again, thank you, RoseSeek <3

Kim brings up something else Pickering was known for: virus indexing. There was no RMV in the Pickering roses! Good luck finding a nursery now that does that, or even cares/dares to try. I'm so glad that I bought one of almost every OGR they had in their catalog in 1999.

@Ian_Stewart you have that right! I remember when I spent (the horror!) $25 for a bare root! A consortium of Texas growers pre sold Griffith Buck's Blue Skies, which was proclaimed to be "Ageratum Blue", the summer before it was to be officially released in commerce. That was more than twice the price of any other bare root from any other source at the time and was actually more than I paid for any British import at the time, INCLUDING shipping! What I received was one of the worst plants I've ever received from any source. It rusted, black spotted AND mildewed simultaneously and the foliage had such severe virus it was difficult to find any "green" on the plant. And, I thought that price was outrageous (it WAS at the time 1982, the equivalent of approximately $83.93 today). From some of the complaints I've read of these new "designer" roses and what's being received by those who have complained, it seems little has changed.

All right, I'm going to go into esthetics here, prompted by mention of 'the perfect rose'. If you have the conditions for them, a good many Teas, in fact, are perfect: beautiful in bud, bloom, and foliage; re-flowering; as healthy and frugal as they are elegant. BUT, while the Tea rose is perfect, its beauty can't include the beauty of the Gallicas: the two are mutually exclusive, and the same is true of all the other kinds of rose beauty.

And while I'm on my rose polemic, I'm not sure that creating a Gallica-style rose, for example, but with re-blooming capability, would be pure gain. These roses developed in nature in regions with dry summer climates: they put out foliage during the spring when it's wet, and flower when the rains are tailing off but there are still good moisture levels. Then in summer they sit quietly forming hips, those that do, and they drop their leaves in fall, often first coloring rather nicely, then sit bare all winter when conditions are miserable. They go with the flow of the seasons, and there's charm in this. If you wanted flowers in summer, you'd have to irrigate in dry spells; and you'd have to go out in the heat and the bugs to admire your roses. Ha. Such roses would be less likely to be deciduous: they would drop their leaves when it frosted, and the dead leaves would be mud-colored, not shades of wine and maroon and rust.

For my part, I'm perfectly happy for my once-bloomers to be so. But gardeners being what they are, some will want to hybridize repeat-flowering Gallicas or whatever, and that's fine. They'll be more suitable to certain kinds of conditions than mine, and may well be truly useful in some cases. So I say, go for it, and see what happens.

@roseseek Geez man! I thought buying 6 disease ridden minis in 3in pots got $111 was bad! $83 is wild and for a barefoot.

@Melissa, please, what are some good tea roses? 

@Ian Stewart: Zone 6 Western Kentucky, USA Ian, since you list your climate as a USDA 6, I would caution you about getting too invested in the "antique" Tea varieties. Few of them are suitable for climates where they are likely to experience anything more than modest frosts.

Case in point: in the 2015 Polar Vortex here in the PNW (USDA Zone 8, by the way) I had quite a few of the classic Teas here, some of which were 15 years old and well established. Some (like 'Mons Tillier' and 'Mrs. B. R. Cant') were in unheated greenhouses. Every single one of them died. Period. Dead below the soil line and not one of them sent up new growth after that freeze.

I really enjoyed several of the Teas I grew, especially 'Mons. Tillier' and was disappointed tro lose them, but my experience has shown me that they're not entirely suitable for my climate, where summer nights are always — without fail — cool, and spring is a prolonged, cold, wet thing. Teas like it hot and dry, and they do not tolerate freezing. So in a USDA 6 climate, you are probably asking for trouble in adopting Teas, unless you acquire only the smallest of them and plan to keep them in pots that can be brought into "safe" spaces for the winter. Of course, different growers have different experiences with these tender varieties, and I'm certain some people have had some success with certain cultivars in climates colder than mine, but I thought I should share my experiences with the class.

Ian, put out a thread on it if you're interested; others have wider experience than I. However, Teas are generally rated hardy to Zone 7. I think they'd be iffy in Zone 6, though you could ask any zone pushers out there.

In my limited experience, most of the ones I've grown have been wonderful. 'Mme. Antoine Mari', 'Général Schablikine', 'Safrano' and its sport 'Isabella Sprunt', the latter in particular, as I go gaga for icy pale lemon yellow blooms; 'Archduke Joseph' and 'Mrs. B.R. Cant', both large, at least where they don't get cut back, by weather or the hand of man; 'Etoile de Lyon', a most luscious butter yellow when the beetles don't ruin it, which is their usual fate in my garden. Some people consider 'Sanguinea', a single brilliant red, to be a Tea. And 'Clementina Carbonieri' (of commerce), another large plant, and 'Comtesse de Cayla', both susceptible to burning but brilliantly colored. All, all, highly desirable. However, before you get that gleam in your eye, you need to look into whether they'd grow--grow WELL--in your area, climate, soil. I'm a strong believer in growing what will do well for you without extraordinary effort, for example Kim mounding ice cubes around his 'Charles de Mills'.

@Paul Barden @Melissa Thank you both for the warning.

Judging that they are both from China were the climate is much more "tropical" I can see how unfavorable it would actually in a colder climates..

I totally agree that teas are a long-shot at best in colder zones and not likely to show their best qualities, being one of those zone pushers Melissa mentions. I kept alive several teas over about 8 years in (what was then) zone 5, and killed many more of them in that period. The longest lived ones were: Mrs. B.R. Cant, Monsieur Tillier, Georgetown Tea, and Maman Cochet. Of the bunch, only Maman Cochet lived until I had to dig her out with my RRD explosion.

I say "kept alive" teas because that's mostly what I did. They lived outside with protection of filled leaf bags surrounding them and insulating them from the worst of the winter fluctuations. They mostly died to the ground and struggled back to their towering 2' tall growth each year, and put out a few straggly blooms each year.

That's not what teas are supposed to be in their glory, and I would have been embarrassed to point them out to anyone with pride saying "wow, look at my Maman Cochet"! The only pride is in keeping it alive as a personal gardening challenge. They were tiny and scruffy and insignificant in my zone, whatever glory they are in a warmer zone.

I still like a gardening challenge, and I'm trying another tea or two in my new garden incarnation for two reasons: a) we're now officially zone 6, and the south side of my house is therefore a virtual zone 7, b) I have learned ways to get much better head start of growth on roses before planting so that they grow to more robust sizes before winter. The guinea pig of teas this time is Clementina Carbonieri. She has survived one winter and we'll see if I can get her to put on more growth in future years.

The biggest problem with teas is that even if they survive, you have to prune out most of their canes in cold zones and teas really resent pruning. They don't go dormant over the winter so they're trying to grow in below zero F temperatures which isn't a good idea for any rose.

You're welcome to be a fool like me and give them a try, but even in my wildest dreams I don't expect them to be a fraction of what they are further south. As Paul mentions, be ready to sing their funeral elegy at any time after a harsh or highly variable winter. At least we have the hot dry summers they like (oh, joy - NOT) but we match it with notably wicked cold in winter. It's already supposed to be 5 F this weekend and winter hasn't even officially started.

Cynthia

@nippstress (or is Cynthia better?) Thank you! This is some serious valuable information you & others have here about the Tea class. Whilst I own no tea rose, the whole class seems like it's worth a shot. I "May" try them, but that would be in the far future. I have plenty of others to get before considering the teas, though I believe it to be a possible success.

Regarding the OP, I have 'Mme Plantier' from Heirloom and 'Armide' from Rogue Valley planted next to each other in my garden and they look identical.

@Josg Maggsib Oh thank YOU!! I was wondering if Armide that RVR sells was Mme Plantier or not, I even emailed them about it (they replied back but never updated me).

So thank you!

It is my impression that 'Mme. Plantier' and 'Armide' are often the same rose here in the USA.

@Ian Stewart: Zone 6 Western Kentucky, USA: "I have a question about 'Madame Hardy', where on earth do I buy it!?"

I am shocked to see that Greenmantle is the only nursery left in the country that still has 'Mme. Hardy' in its catalog. Have things changed that much in the past decade??! I was digging some suckers of some other varieties this afternoon and I was able to isolate a sucker of 'Mme. Hardy' and dug and potted it, if you want it.

@Paul Barden, I must say, I believe you are 100% right. As I read on HMF they seemingly are the same rose, too.
As for the 'Madame Hardy' sucker, I would be ecstatic to get one. If we were to make it official though I will gladly pay for shipping cost & etc.

@Ian Stewart: Zone 6 Western Kentucky, USA You can DM me to make arrangements.

@Paul Barden, I'll be brutally honest I have no idea how to DM on here 😅

Perhaps HMF? Or is there something I'm not seeing on Houzz :P

@Ian_Stewart USA Zone 6 click on Paul's name in his post. That opens his page. At the top right you'll see the below. Click on Message and type in your message. Easy.

I may have to log in with my computer, seems to be a mobile issue.

Thank you @roseseek!

FWIW, Roses Unlimited also lists Madame Hardy among its OGRs and that's where I got mine. At present, they are sold out of it, but it's at least in their catalog.

Ian - Cynthia is just fine. It's just that Houzz-less doesn't recognize my zone and name in some of my ways of accessing the system, so I might be listed as a number in some posts.

Cynthia

Nice to know then Cynthia! Thanks a lot <3

Madame Hardy is available at High Country Roses. That's where I got mine. They restock the majority of their roses every January 10th. You have to be quick because it usually sells out within about a week

@Crimson Glory - Thanks for the information, they probably also have roses I'm going to need so I need to look in to what they have tp offer.

Mr.Paul Barden generously sent me out a Madame Hardy sucker, I'm thankful that I have that

Regards, Ian Stewart

@roseseek - Apologies to ask again but for another rose 😅

When available for purchase please let me know about R. Foliolosa

@Ian Stewart: Zone 6 Western Kentucky, USA not a problem. Foliolosa has also been harvested this season and is unable to provide more. I'll be happy to add it to the list.

Sweet! I appreciate it.