In advance of me being reasonably suspected of doing something illegal? None. And not because I don't see value in police being able to keep tabs on untoward individuals or activity. In shops, banks etc, that's a different subject and IMO expected.

Must add, AI use in these cameras, storage of information and sharing of information should be concerning to anyone who shrugs and says 'I don't do anything illegal so I'm not worried about it'. Definitions of illegal are subject to change.

Hopefully the Constitutioinal prohibition of passing criminal ex post facto laws by Congress and state governments will continue.

Automated license plate readers have cut down on car breakins and reduced time to recovery of stolen vehicles and time to capture of criminals throughout my state. As long as the law restricting the use and sharing of the data outside of state and local level authorities is in place and authorized access and security measures are maintained, I have no issues with it. They also need to be restricted to public byways and not somewhere where someone has a reasonable expectation of privacy, as already outlined in long held court cases and laws.

DLM, AI facial recognition issues was my first thought … most notably, the Angela Lipps and Taki Allen cases.

It’s proving to be a very slippery slope.

A quick search of ‘’Flock cameras misuse“ is quite eye-opening. I don’t think any private companies should be in charge of mass surveillance on citizens. Where’s the oversight? How many cases of abusing this tool are we not hearing about?

Of course I’m all for aids in helping prevent and solve crimes, but again, how do we stop the misuse of it?

Eta: I saw these thoughts about Flock cameras (sorry I forgot where I saw it):

”These have been mass adopted by all kinds of entities, including police and sheriff departments, city and county governments, private corporations, and even HOAs and neighborhood associations. The concern is that ALL of these cameras are feeding data back to FLOCK, who sells access to their national database to any government agency (and probably a number of private ones). This database is searchable by a number of metrics, including license plates, names, vehicle make/model/color, and who knows what other parameters.”

I found it -

https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/1uquzgc/whats_going_on_with_flock_surveillance_cameras/

lucille my conjecture is about more than ex post fact issues. Imagine a time when someone entering a mosque is considered suspicious - that's not a stretch given recent history. Or how about someone who regularly shops at the local mercado - we've seen that in action as recently as now. Since SC interpretation and permission for profiling has been construed to be "common sense" and now allows law enforcement to use language, place of employment, ethnicity and other 'cues' as appropriate for suspicion to detain individuals, prior definitions fall by the wayside. We're learning a lot about the fragility of norms. We do not need to be complicit in further weakening them.

My nephew who has a PhD in a law and public policy related field won't even talk about certain things unless Alexa and Google Assistant are turned off.

There are cities here restricting or refusing flock cameras.

As far as a ring camera, there is no neighborhood that doesn’t have a threat of harm, sadly. My own neighborhood is described as such. I don’t know of any crime committed here but i don’t doubt that it could happen. There are just too many mean people out there, or people who would rather steal than work.

I am one who likes to know who is at the door before I answer if I am home alone.

Pal, we don’t have either of those and Siri is welcome to listen as she’s too dumb to tie her shoelaces.

DLM, agreed. Now that the House has passed the SAVE America law which will allow sharing of states' voter registration lists with the feds. I am even more leery of government surveillance, especially when we have masked and armed government agents who don't believe in getting judicially-approved search warrants.

There have been several local/regional incidents of law enforcement using Flock cameras to stalk ex partners or their ex partner's new partners.

Ring cameras, so what? Do you think the police will actually investigate? Good luck with that. I can be out with certain people and their phone is constantly going off there is someone at the door. So annoying when you are trying to have dinner, etc.

Privacy is totally gone. We are all on camera everywhere we go.

I was out with someone several times and got quite annoyed that her ohone was going off every few minutes due to critters walking by her security cameras all around her house. She was really checking for her neighbor kids going into her yard to retrieve balls and frisbees and trampling her flowers.

I started an article in the current New Yorker at the library, about surveillance devices in Atlanta. Supposedly there are more such devices in Atlanta than any city outside of China, but I didn’t see their rsearch on that. Anyway, I’ll be going back to the livrqrylibrary to finish the article.

@bpath - Flock is headquartered in Atlanta.

I had to look this one up.

We have multiple security camers in our personal homes as well as rental properties

Only good has come out of each.

In two different lications, police contacted my DH to see if he had recorded data. One one was a bus hitting a bike rider, another vandalism. Crimes solved.

bpath, you friend can adjust her notifications for only people or vechicles. No need to see squirrels or leaves blowing!

Just receved this alert

Looked outside to see a delivery truck. Yes, I like knowing when I get a delivery.

Porkandham, there was more than Flock, there are a lot of other devices, Ring etc, and something about a robotic dog surveillance. I really have to go back and read the rest.

I don't understand all the insides and outs but I believe there is a substantial difference from piecing information about an event from people's Ring cameras and something as integrated as Flock.

Being able to piece an event from one or several people's individual security cameras is one thing, but full on integrated government surveillance is another.

As I understand it a sheriff already used information from Flock to track down an ex-wife who had a protection order, legally changed her name, and moved halfway across the country to track her down and murder her. He would hardly be able to do that from bits of information submitted by people to help solve a crime or clarify an accident.

In my own family three of the local ones use Google to set timers and do things like that. And they also (three women) will occasionally conference call each other and be on speaker phone with each other. My oldest sister was cooking something and she said "Google set a timer". It did not set a timer in her house, it set the timer in my niece's kitchen miles away, and sister said "That's weird, why does Google do that?" and the Google in my niece's kitchen said "Because I listen to what you say."

Its' all a convenience until it's not, and it's all about crime prevention until it's not. Basically we are all tracked in grids by satellite anyway, unless you do not have a cell phone, and now there is just going to be more precise and visual surveillance. Any social media already knows your political leanings, and what kinds of things you do because of the algorithms, so I guarantee you there are people who are already being tracked not because they are a terrorist, but because they are very vocally (albeit in their allegedly private circle) anti this administration. And if you don't believe it, I think you are naive.

"Its' all a convenience until it's not, and it's all about crime prevention until it's not."

Exactly. And it's all just make believe in the movies until it's not. Terminator and AI/thinking machines or Minority Report and precrime arrests. I'd say you can't make this stuff up but obviously someone did.

Map of cameras so far:

https://maps.deflock.org/?lat=39.8283&lng=-98.5795&zoom=2.50

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flock_Safety

”Much of Flock's initial investment came from private venture capital funds associated with Peter Thiel …”

Peter Thiel

Do you remember when Simon Bar Sinister on Underdog had a plot by which he would rule the entire world by controlling its water supply?

Living in a nice safe area makes you a prime target for break-ins. That was the main crime in my area of LA, usually in the morning when people were at work, school or exercising. They knew they could grab nice thing in the 20 minutes it would take the police to respond. Next popular crime was breaking into cars parked in driveways when people left something in them. Those were usually between 1-4 am.

Ring cameras were definitely useful, except the suspects always wore hoodies/masks, so not so easy to identify.

We nearly got robbed once, but I was home and answered the door, so they left. Went out and adopted a big dog soon after, and then adopted another big dog. By the time we left LA several of our neighbors had been broken into, but no attempts on our house with the two big scary looking and loud dogs.

Our new area of FL has little crime and the police show up in 5 minutes, with several units responding. I love the feeling of not worrying that my house will be broken into if I am out for the whole day, which was always a possibility in LA. We still have cameras and ring-type doorbell!

It doesn't bother me that EZ Pass creates a record of where I've been. And I'm ok with the police license plate readers since they help solve crimes.

Nine years ago, within a couple of days four young men ages 19 to 22 went missing in Bucks County, PA. What helped the police solve the case within days is that they were able to trace the car of one of the missing men using data from a police license plate reader. Sadly, in three separate incidents, two cousins had murdered the four missing men. The men were murdered at an isolated farm (about 15 minutes from where I live) that belonged to the parents of one of the murderers. But thankfully the murder spree ended at four deaths since the murderers were caught quickly.

A township near me just stopped using Flock because of concerns over how the company uses data. They re looking for a different provider. I welcome cameras at stop lights. People constantly fly through lights here just after they have turned red. However, I dont want to be tracked everywhere I go, not that I go anywhere interesting. I suppose if I get dementia and drive to another state, I could be found.

China has ”security” cameras everywhere and I get the feeling they arent for security.

I love my Ring doorbell and security cameras. I can tell when the cleaning lady leaves so I can go home. The camera in the back catches all the wildlife that comes to visit overnight and my neighbor’s daughter who likes to look around in my garden. Shes cute.

Just last night a nearby neighbor had someone rummage through her car, which is creepy. Stole her sunglasses.

I unplugged Alexa because I was getting ads for things I casually mentioned around the house. Really creepy!

Security cameras have their place but we need to protect privacy, too.

Flock got flocked. 😉

https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/1vucyhi/benn_jordan_gets_banned_from_a_flock_lobbying/

I don't tend to be an alarmist about these things, and in general shrug and think, "Well, the benefit outweighs the negative aspects," but I am beginning over the last few years to feel that there is more nefarious activity within our government than I had realized. My son is a software engineer and will not participate in any social media, 23AndMe, etc. because he knows firsthand what happens to our data.

This is a hot topic for good reason. First thought it sounds like a great idea to catch criminals, but the direction our goverment is moving I have no faith it will be limited to this use. Our city has bought Flock in without discussing it out in the open. Nothing through City Council meetings, or public notice. The police chief signed a contract with a company where Flock was part of the "crime prevention package". Definitely think that this should be halted until there is at minimum a public discussion and any use should be posted on signs, not sure I am even comfortable with that.

There are people who are turning surveillance against some of the people who are most for it, and of course when they are in the lens, they hate it.

There has been local and federal video surveillance of people attending services at mosques for decades.

So these left liberal videographers, to agitate, no doubt, but why not?, have started taping evangelical Christians attending services. It's perfectly legal, but they have been cursed at, had the police called on them, threatened with lawsuits, and have been assaulted or had equipment damaged. It's a little bit different when you are the subject, isn't it?

In preparation for the hit and run:

OllieJane

28 minutes agolast modified: 9 minutes ago

Surely you know that even the data shows a significant number of minorities of Muslims in the U.S. are not assimilating. Pew polling finds many hold socially conservative views very different from U.S. norms. Some mosques and online spaces have voiced major hostility toward America, Christians, and Jews… and FBI/DHS reports document the ongoing radicalization and plots are facts.

I will preface this by saying, of course this isn't the whole of the Muslim communites right now, BUT...it is no secret that the Muslim population has grown greatly in the U.S. over the past two decades...through immigration-especially from Muslim countries-and higher than average fertility rates! Have you ever seen that meme of six women on a subway-three very pregnant Muslim women in the U.S. sitting right across the seats from three non-Muslim women who are NOT pregnant? Because the non-Muslim women in the U.S. either are not getting pregnant or they get abortions or whatever the case may be. These Muslim women are populating the U.S. more and more-and that is their plan, IMO. And as we all know, they are very patient and have laid low for decades and now...we are seeing more aggression come into fruition. That larger base is one reason their more unassimilated and hostile voices now have greater numbers than ever before. I truly hate if for the peaceful Muslims here in the U.S. BUT they DO need to speak up more against this-otherwise they are just being compliant with it.

Ignoring these gaps is serious. The problem is getting worse, not better-and fast. Or at least they are getting louder and more aggressive in their unassimilated views. If you don’t see that as a growing threat in the U.S. right now, you’re not paying attention. That is a big reason I don’t mind Flock cameras being used now. And...Americans cannot be afraid to say out loud this very concerning and growing problem in the U.S.

Substiture the word trad-wives wherever you read Muslim.

Have you ever seen that meme of six women on a subway-three very pregnant Muslim women in the U.S. sitting right across the seats from three non-Muslim women who are NOT pregnant? Because the non-Muslim women in the U.S. either are not getting pregnant or they get abortions or whatever the case may be. These Muslim women are populating the U.S. more and more-and that is their plan, IMO. And as we all know, they are very patient and have laid low for decades and now...we are seeing more aggression come into fruition.

"I have NO obligation to you or anyone else to answer back-sometimes I just feel it's useless to talk to a bunch of people in the same echo chamber-and some days I feel like calling them out. It's MY choice. Get a life outside of this forum, lady! Besides, I never take your comments seriously-as most are lies."

You sound just like the Felon. Whenever someone points out that something he said is absurd, he starts distracting with red herrings and accusations.

I‘m too cynical, especially in these times, to think that the data will not be weaponized to target individuals. It doesn’t matter whether the actions captured by the cameras are legal, innocent.

I question as to why it's necessary to respond to comments that can't be taken seriously.

Ad hominem attacks are the new form of M-- A dialog. Just substitute "quiet, piggy " for "lady".

This probably seems like it's going far afield, but I think Washington DC made a huge tactical error when, at the end of the Civil War, instead of granting clemency, they did not execute the entire upper eschelon of the Confederate Army for treason. I think some of the problems we are having right now, and throughout much of the twentieth century are rooted in this poor decision.

Total aside, but just something that caught my eye. What exactly do we mean when we talk about immigrants assimilating? Are we saying that everyone in our country has to be homogenous? That none of us want to learn or borrow anything from anyone else's culture? That would seem like a wasted opporunity.

It just means as white acting and as Christian as possible, if not actually Just those two things.

It reeks of white supremacy.

Yes, it reeks as the felon reeks.

Ohmylord, this fear-mongering is so ridiculous.

Totally agree Bestyears - and their entire empire of stupidity is built on it.

Something I wonder about: Is the act of assimilation a requirement in the U.S.? If so, to what degree? Who gets to decide?

I believe that people have the right to protect their private property with surveillance. Businesses too. I am adamantly against any kind of public surveillance. It's not meant to protect, it's meant to prosecute.

I could fill this page with cases like this happening all over the country:

https://katv.com/news/local/sherwood-stop-sparked-after-flock-camera-misread-plate-by-one-letter-as-stolen-katv-news-share-inform-public-community-safety

They released them and let them go. How nice. Sorry about that. But it (and other cases) could turn out a lot different for all of us who ’haven’t done anything wrong, so don't need to worry about it’.

From the article (referring to the town above):

”The portal goes on to say that this data is prohibited to be used for immigration enforcement, traffic enforcement, harassment or intimidation.”

Suuuurrrre. That’ll never happen anywhere in our country, right? Don’t forget this from my earlier post:

Much of Flock's initial investment came from private venture capital funds associated with Peter Thiel …”

I guess I shouldn't be, but I am shocked how some people feel toward others that are different from them and even more shocked they are willing to actually put it down in writing.

Oh and forced assimilation is just stupid. Some need to get over themselves.

I find the assimialation "problem" odd. I recall growing up with classmates whose Italian parents and grandparents spoke little to no english, the same with a few Polish friends whose moms dressed very differently when seen in the grocery store. What of it? This has been a common occourance over many, many decades; the children go to school and "assimilate" and help their elders navigate.

"What of it? This has been a common occurrence over many, many decades; the children go to school and "assimilate"

The difference has been one of race and religion. Until the latter part of the 19th century most of the immigration was Northern European and Christian. Then groups who came were more marginalized and discriminated against, the Irish were called savages because they were different than most Northern Europeans, the Jews were discriminated against, then the Southern Italians, who were considered dark skinned, not really white, then Puerto Ricans, not really white, Dominicans, Mexicans and so forth who are not considered white or "white enough". However, a lot of these groups are also Christian when they get here. Chinese and Southeast Asians, and people from the Middle East are not primarily Christian. So the problem could always be reduced to xenophobia, and racism. The more Northern European you look, the more likely you are to be Christian, or at least look Christian, the further along you are to assimilation because you already look the part. We have a large Russian community here, and I at least, have never heard anyone yell at them, or other Europeans not speaking English to speak English, I've only heard these comment directed toward darker skinned people.

Pal I think what Indigo was saying is each group may look, acts and/or speaks differently on arrival, especially the older among them. Differences may be noted but they meld into the community to varying degrees and over time, especially the children. I understand what you're saying as well but since I wasn't alive to feel or see the discrimination of earlier groups, I'm not sure this one is really different on a person to person basis. It is different on a government basis.

I am not disagreeing with anything that Indigo was saying at all; to an extent I was expanding on it.

My point is that anyone of a European background can essentially be "melded" when they first get here as long as they don't speak. On the other hand, if you are a person of color you will never be melded in the same way, even if you were born here, depending. And I don't think you are subject to the same sorts of biases, which can be visual.

I have worked with Europeans who came to the US as mature adults, and while they both knew English, they were not perfectly fluent, and I never witnessed them being shamed for not speaking English 100% of the time, or not pronouncing things correctly or so forth--as compared to Asian colleagues who have gotten things like "I can't understand a thing you people say".

-----------

I have an Asian friend who was born here and she is in her 50s, and has the very slightest accent because of speaking her native language to her parents who never mastered English.

She lives in an affluent area, because she is affluent. She started a high concept prepared food business, personal cooking business which expanded into high end catering, not because she needed the income but because she was in her 40s, could not use her degree in that area and was bored out of her mind.

She said that fairly regularly, she will be in her shop, or even at someone's residence to set up the catering with her white assistant (at the time she told me this she had one who was a 24 year old man). And people will completely ignore her and start talking to the 24 year old assuming he is her boss. It's not intentionally racist, it's a sort of benign institutionalized racism based upon certain assumptions that should really no longer exist .

DLM and Pal, thank you. I hope I didn't contribute to the end of this thread as the Flock camera debate is ongoing in so many areas and so important for people not to just assume data will not be misused.

The data shows a significant number of Amish in the U.S. are not assimilating and hold socially conservative views very different from U.S. norms.

The data shows a significant number of Mormons in the U.S. are not assimilating and hold socially conservative views very different from U.S. norms.

The data shows a significant number of Christian home-schoolers in the U.S. are not assimilating and hold socially conservative views very different from U.S. norms.

See how dumb this game is?