As you weed a square foot, apply two inches of mulch. Keep going until you're done with the garden.

Round-up is the solution, I know it isn't organic but it clears your garden fast and for a long time .
Use Round-up on a warm/hot day ( 15C or more )
Has to be dry no rain for 6 hours .
let it die off, work up soil after 14 days.
Repeat once if needed .

Wouldn't want to be planting a vegetable garden in Round Up run-off. I wouldn't eat the produce.

Wow! freshfields...I just love the advise given above?

Really though....Do ya feel like mulching every square inch, after all we didnt get the size or your "Plot"...please give us some more info....if Ya would.

Wouldn't that be easier than fighting weeds on a daily basis?

You could eat the purslane, highest Omega 3 fatty acids of any plant.

;)

I'm not advocating the use of chemicals, and I don't have a solution to your weed problem, but I just wanted to address the mulch solution. While mulch definitely has benefits, it is over rated for weed suppression. Where I live we have a bindweed epidemic, and that stuff doesn't bat an eye at 2 or 3 inches of mulch. There is another weed here, which just finished blooming, fields of purple were everywhere, and it is actually quite pretty when not in my garden. Anyway, this stuff easily germinates on TOP of mulch or rocks or whatever. I haven't resorted to any chemicals, but I am getting tired of constantly pulling weeds.

Quit whining over RoundUp. For crying out loud, it kills stuff dead and then becomes harmless.

Lots of people want to cry about RoundUp living in the soil for eons and transmutating into radioactive toxins and all sorts of crap.

That's what it is. Crap.

It kills and goes away.

Anyone with evidence to the contrary post it.

That is all.

justaguy2 wrote:

"Quit whining over RoundUp. For crying out loud, it kills stuff dead and then becomes harmless. "

You took the words right out of my mouth, I could not have said it any better.

I have been using RoundUp for many years, mainly for spot treatment in and around my garden and have never noticed any adverse effects. The thousands of earthworms sure don't seen to care.

Bob

I can truthfully say that I have never used Roundup...but today is my birthday and I am 68 years old...It is reaching a point where I have to choose between using Roundup or just giving up gardening...I can't manage to weed and care for a garden like I was 30 anymore and we use Roundup around the ranch for other weed control so I plan to use it in the garden when I need to...I'm thankful for Roundup.

I separated a shoulder one summer and ended up unable to garden. A 8x16 raised bed went totally to seed -- I am talking out of control 5' high weeds, bindweed, etc, etc.

It has taken me three years to get it back under control.

I used roundup, but the real trick was extra thick landscape fabric. I covered the bed entirely in it, with little holes cut for what I wanted to plant. Everything went under the fabric, I even had to slit the holes bigger to harvest onions and beets. Weeding became a matter of keeping the litle holes clear of weeds.

Three years later the weeds are quite manageable, but I am thinking of putting a new layer of landscape fabric down, because I kind of liked the result. I don't have any recorded measurements, but the onions sure seemed to like the fabric, so did the bush beans, and I think I planted about 2 weeks earlier.

Have you tried eating it? Purslane is delicious, in fact, Johnny's sells a strain specially for growing.

Any time a weed shows it self I lay down a double sheet of newspaper, wet it good then cover with mulch. The worms love the newspaper (soy ink) and I am continually adding to the soil.

dou

Hi all, I tried newspaper last year and it worked pretty well. I tucked it in and around all of my plants and then put about an inch of straw on top. The only trick was to water a little longer in order to allow the water to penatrate the newspaper thoroughly. This year, I did the paper again, but it all flew away on me, straw and all, on a particularly dry and windy day. Still, I think I will try again later, although it was discouraging to have all my mulch disappear in one day. I mulch my paths with all the unbidden catalogs I get in the mail (I save them up all winter) and then cover them with a thin layer of wood chips, just for appearance. I also use unfolded cereal boxes or whatever other cardboard comes my way. My worst weed is ground ivy, and that creeps around any mulch I put down. I just have to keep pulling and pulling, but I don't expect it to really go away.

As with anything there is usually not just "one" solution or method. What works for many may not work for some. There are many, many different types of mulch and there are many, many different types of weeds. Some weeds sprout from nodes or rhizomes in the ground, so while mulch will help suppress light, some will still sprout and hand digging may be the only solution. But mulch will definitely stabilize soil temperature, and prevent moisture evaporation to cut down on your watering bill, it will also prevent airborn seeds from taking root in your garden soil.

As for the use of pesticides and herbicides, there is evidence of the toxicity out there if you look hard enough. Companies like Monsanto have a lot of money, and a lot of people who go back and fourth working for the government and Monsanto. There are plenty of sources with the names and titles of these people who go thru this revolving door, what this means is that they also have a lot of power to control what consumers know and don't know. Many of the "safety reports" they perform are done in house and not by neutral, third party independent labs so they control how the study is done in order to make it sound safe.

It's up to consumers to educate each other and direct each other to the proper sources for credible informaton. Unfortunatly the facts are often presented in propoganda like fashion which makes it unpalatable. Long time respected journalists have been known to lose their jobs over persisting in reporting the truth.

No matter what you think, the bottom line is that these substances are poison. Common sense should tell you it doesn't just "disappear into thin air" or that they only affect the one plant you're targeting. Don't think that the collective use of a little over a long period of time by many doesn't have any serious effects. Just because you feel fine now doesn't mean there won't be long term consequences. Just because you have a lot of worms in your soil doesn't mean there beneficial organisms are not being affected.

"Roundup, has been publicized as an environmentally friendly herbicide that breaks down shortly after application. Experiments have shown, however, that glyphosate may persist in the environment for as long as 3 years.

"Glyphosate can be acutely toxic to non-target plants, including aquatic plants and algae. The effects of this toxicity on natural plant succession alters the ecology of treated areas. In most cases, the plant species diversity will decrease, and along with it, the numbers of insects, mammals and birds utilizing these areas as habitat."
(Santillo, D.J. et al (1989), "Response of songbirds to glyphosate-induced habitat changes on clear-cut." Journal of Wildlife Management, v. 53 no. 1, 64-71.)

Mycorrhizae are soil fungus that function to increase nutrient uptake by plants through a symbiotic association with the roots. Mycorrhizae have been implicated in the improved resistance to stress, and are necessary for the proper growth and development of most vascular plants. Studies have shown that glyphosate inhibits the growth of mycorrhizae. Killing of beneficial mycorrhizae can result in overgrowth of toxic or pathogenic fungus, such as Fusarium.
(Estok, D. et al (1989) , "Effects of the herbicides 2,4-D, glyphosate, hexazinone, and trichopyr on the growth of three species of ectomycorrhizal fungi." Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology v 42, pp 835-839.)

There's a reason the containers that hold these products are to be properly disposed of. There's a reason you're supposed to "suit up" properly before using these products.

"Monsanto Agrees to Change Ads

Monsanto Co. agreed to change its advertising for glyphosate- based products, including Roundup, in response to complaints by the New York Attorney General's office that the ads were misleading. Based on their investigation, the Attorney General's office felt that the advertising inaccurately portrayed Monsanto's glyphosate-containing products as safe and as not causing any harmful effects to people or the environment. According to the state, the ads also implied that the risks of products such as Roundup are the same as those of the active ingredient, glyphosate, and do not take into account the possible risks associated with the product's inert ingredients.

As part of the agreement, Monsanto will discontinue the use of terms such as "biodegradable" and "environmentally friendly" in all advertising of glyphosate-containing products in New York state and will pay $50,000 toward the state's costs of pursuing the case. The Attorney General has been challenging the ads since 1991."

"Glyphosate is the active killing ingredient in numerous proprietary pesticides, including: ROUNDUP, EAZY WEEDER, SLAM grass and weed killer, ZERO weed spray and wand, COMKILL, SQUADRON, TILLMASTER, TUMBLEWEED, etc.

Virtually all testing for long term health and environmental damage (eg: for cancer, reproductive defects, birth defects, chronic damage) has been done only on the single ingredient, glyphosate, and not on the full formulation containing solvents and surfactants.

Claims of biodegradability for Roundup (ie, that the herbicide breaks down when it contacts the ground) are therefore next to meaningless. Researchers have found up to 98% of the glyphosate has remained present on sprayed leaves and branches after 90 days. Likewise, if it is not able to be absorbed by a particular soil type, especially those low in organic matter, then it will remain active, often for months.

Glyphosate readily "nitrosates" to form a new compound called N-nitrosoglyphosate, which is known to cause tumours. Nitrosation occurs in the human stomach by reaction with the nitrate in normal human saliva. A forest worker spraying Roundup from a backpack, for example, could be in the high risk category for tumour growth by breathing in some of the spray drift.

Nitrosoglyphosate can apparently also form in soils under certain conditions. Research has shown that it is very persistent (ie, not biodegradable), with 7 parts per million remaining in the soil after 140 days. Admittedly, there is diverse and conflicting data put out about glyphosate. On the strength of the above, the Guide advises that you err on the side of caution.

Weed experts now say that weeds such as rye grass are becoming resistant to glyphosate-containing herbicides, which will render conventional chemical farming practices useless.

Glyphosate is illegal to spray in waterways as of June 3rd 1997. Seventy four of seventy five glyphosate-containing substances tested by the National Registration Authority for Agricultural and Veterinary Chemicals contained a surfactant toxic to frogs and other aquatic lifeforms."

"A study reported this month in Science Daiy finds that Roundup, the herbicide thought to be less harmful than most other toxic herbicides in its class, is highly toxic to amphibians at much lower concentration levels than tested previously. The study also finds that the pesticides deadly effects are not mitigated by the dilution of soil." "This research was funded by the National Science Foundation, Pitt'sMcKinley Fund, and the Pennsylvania Academy of Science."

"Study Reveals Common Pesticides Damage Aquatic Communities
(Beyond Pesticides, April 5, 2005) The study, The impact of insecticides and herbicides on the biodiversity and productivity of aquatic communities, confirmed that four common pesticides, Sevin® (carbaryl), malathion, RoundUp® (glyphosate), and 2,4-D are harmful to aquatic populations. In particular RoundUp® proved to be highly toxic to amphibians, decreasing their populations by nearly 70%.
Professor Rick Relyea, of the University of Pittsburgh, conducted the study, which is published the April 2005 issue of Ecological Applications. His findings are important in understanding the comprehensive impact that these chemicals have in real world scenario. Dr. Relyea studied the impact of typical dosages on ecologically relevant aquatic species and found that Sevin® reduced species richness (a measure of population size and interactions) by 15%, malathion by 30%, RoundUp® by 22%, and 2,4-D had no impact on species richness.

When looking at the impacts of these chemicals individually, Dr. Relyea found that RoundUp® was highly toxic to amphibians. These findings confirm other studies on amphibians and reproductive effects. However, in this study death occurred completely eliminating two species of tadpoles and a 70% decrease in the entire tadpole population.

According to The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, Dr. Relyea initially wanted to see whether the Roundup® would have an indirect effect on the frogs by killing their food source, algae. However, he found that since it killed the frogs, the algae populations increased with no predators available to control it.

The most lethal ingredient in RoundUp® is its surfactant rather than its active ingredient (glyphosate) reports The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, which allows the pesticide to penetrate the outer waxy layer of weeds. The other pesticides in the study have less potent surfactants, explaining RoundUp®Âs greater impact in this study."

"The June 2005 scientific journal "Environmental Health Perspectives" reports that glyphosate, sold by Monsanto under the brand name "Roundup," damages human placental cells at exposure levels ten times less than what the company claims is safe.

A study in the August journal Ecological Applications found that even when applied at concentrations that are one-third of the maximum concentrations typically found in waterways, Roundup still killed up to 71 percent of tadpoles in the study. Similar glyphosate studies around the world have been equally alarming. The American Academy of Family Physicians epidemiological research has now linked exposure to the herbicide with increased risk of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a life-threatening cancer, while a Canadian study has linked glyphosate exposure with increased risk for miscarriage. A 2002 study linked glyphosate exposure with increased incidence of attention deficit disorder in children. Despite these studies, Monsanto continues to advertise Roundup, sprayed heavily on 140 million acres of genetically engineered crops across the world, as one of the "safest" pesticides on the market."

Monsanto has responded to the groundbreaking study showing that Roundup is fatally toxic to frogs by stating that the study is irrelevant, because "there are no Roundup brand formulations approved in the US or Canada for application over water." Roundup and other Glyphosate formulations are widely used in drains, creeks, parks, gardens, playgrounds, roadsides, farms and revegetation projects around the world. It has been detected in nearly every waterway in the U.S., due to runoff and leaching.

Health and Environmental Impacts of Glyphosate

" The recent study adds heavily to the weight of evidence that the inert ingredients used in the retail herbicide, not disclosed on the label due to a "trade secret" loophole, make it significantly more toxic than just its active ingredient glyphosate alone. The Environmental Protection Agency only evaluates health and environment data submitted by the manufacturer on active ingredients and not on actual pesticide formulations sold on the shelves. Several other studies published in peer-reviewed journals over the years have underscored the lethal affects of Roundup to humans and wildlife."

This is a huge topic. I have no desire to go back and fourth. I know where I stand on pesticides, herbicides, and genetically modified food, processed and refined foods, recycling plastic, metal, paper, and items that still have life left for someone else to use, prevention of problems from occuring in the first place rather than treating them later, etc. I prefer to work with nature and a balanced ecosystem. Things that are not considered poison can kill you, heck - too much water can kill you too! What you do with your own body is one thing, what you do with the environment is another because it affects everything else, things that are not obvious.

Everyone is different. Get informed. Eduate yourself. Don't believe everything you read. Don't believe that just because it's "on the shelf" means it's always safe to buy no matter what it is. Look up Starlink Corn, look up Percy Schmeiser, look up Mendocino county. Look up pesticide environmental studies from Australia. They appear to be more fourthcoming about research results than the US.

HA!!!! I didn't read all of the above post and am not expressing an opinion on Roundup at all, however...Seriously! You had to know that Violet would certainly come back with a COMPLETE answer on that one!!! ROFL Gotta love GW :) My finger hurts from scrolling LOL

Thanks, Violet, but cut and pasting from web sites doesn't really cut it for me. I have read the anti-web sites and they are long on exaggeration and withholding crucial details. Read the actual studies and reports rather than the anti's selective quoting from them. One frequently sited claim is that it gets into ground water. It certainly can, but the study 'proving' it does came from I forget where (maybe Australia) where farmers dumped tons of the stuff on a field with deep soil fissures extending 8' down right into the water table for the area. They literally dumped it into the water and then the subsequent test showed it was in the water. LOL, ya think?!

The evidence against RoundUp is virtually nil. It works as the label indicates when label instructions are followed. There have been cases where it has become a pollutant, but it stems mostly from industrial misuse, not Joe/Jane Gardener nuking a few particularly difficult weeds here and there.

Let's try to keep things in perspective. It's an herbicide. They all should be used only after careful consideration of the options and after reading the label and following it to the letter.

What would be the best mulch and is that enough? OR would just putting down newspaper be enough to keep the weeds down?

dj

I use corrugated cardboard instead of newspaper. If you cover it with a bit of soil and then mulch and keep it wet, most weeds can't get through the two layers of thick paper. Also because there's air between the two layers, it helps break down the mulch above it more quickly, and earthworms thrive in the dark moist soil under it. For solely weed-control, I think corrugated or non-corrugated cardboard is the best free remedy -- all kinds of stores will give you boxes they plan to discard. Put as many layers down as you think you'll need to keep the weeds down. Surround your plants with it. It won't hurt a thing.

I fall in the middle as to the use of Round Up. I don't think it stays forever and hurts everything around it. Earthworms don't seem to mind in my garden -- I used it to try and help get rid of Bishops Weed (didn't really work well). BUT I don't think I would want to use it in a veggie plot and then eat produce from that plot in the same summer. Maybe use RoundUp and then plant/eat NEXT summer, but not in the same season. That is my personal theory anyway :)

Grass clippings is what I use to suppress weeds. I bag them when I mow my lawn a couple times each year (I have to mow my entire 1.5 acre lot with my push mower just so I can have the clippings - my rider does not have a bagger attachment). Put them down a good 4-6" thick around everything, then sit back and enjoy the rest of the season. The grass breaks down over the course of the summer, you till them under for next years crops, and start all over again next year. It probably won't completely smother any perennial weeds, but it does stunt them and make them easier to control, in my experience. Devil's Shoestring is one that comes to mind. If your weeds are taller than 3-4 inches, you'll have to weed (or weed-whack) the big ones before you put down the grass. It'll smother and cook anything smaller than that so you can just put it down right over top of them. One note of caution: Don't use any clippings from a lawn that has been 'Weed n Feed'-ed for 6 weeks after treatment. It'll not be good for your garden plants.

I've used round-up for years and couldn't garden without it. I'm not just 82 but handicapped so need all the labor saving garden aids I can get. Most of the info reported against Roundup is pretty meaningless (as in it doesn't biodegrade in humus poor soils - does this describe YOUR garden? Or tests done In desert areas show..(NOT where I live or garden)
It's a good idea to soak newspaper in a pail of water before applying it as a mulch. That way you can form it around the plant and it will stay put while you put some kind of straw, wood shavings or chip mulch over it.
Purslane is tough stuff to get rid of since it seeds when very small and each broken bit can turn into a new plant, and does. Mulch helps but also be careful what you do with the stuff you pull - it can infest a compost heap or continue to spread seeds even as it lies there dying. And any smidgeon of a piece left behind is just going to root and be a plant two days later. And throwing seeds a day after that. Persistence does it.

wow oldroser...that description sounds like my bermuda grass...what a pain...I have decided that I will not let my grass win even....EVEN...if it requires Roundup...

What's wrong with purslane? It's great stuff. Good for the soil, doesn't grow tall, tasty, and incredibly good for you -- everything from omega-3 fatty acids (incl. the rare ALA), vitamin C, B, carotenoids, magnesium, calcium, potassium, iron, betacyanins, antioxidants, and antimutagenics.

My plants and other weeds usually shade it out, though. I should probably encourage it by leaving more barren spots.

Oh, by the way: I ran into this little tidbit about purslane, in case you really want to just get rid of it:

"It has a wonderful survival tactic: The succulent (juicy) stem, keeps it from drying out. If someone decides purslane is a "weed" and uproots it, it uses the water in the stem to make seeds before it dies, and soon there'll be even more purslane."

These conversations are interesting. But there are a few points to be made here. Weeds are bad only when you ignore them for too long and they choke off your plants. Weeds are bad only when your plants are tender and not yet established. Therefore it is not so much how do you surpress the weed, but WHEN do you need to work hard to supressed them. Once your plants are established, you plant will, for the most part, do the "puspressing" job for you. For me, at the time when the plants are young and tender, I use my hoe (I carry it every time when I walk around the garden) and hoe out the weed. Even if I don't completely root them out, but their energy are greatly hindered, and doing this a few time, even the toughest weed will succumb. This may sound like so much hard work, but you do this only before your plants are established and other time when you need to. Also, if you do this on regular and watchful manner every day, it is really not too bad. Let's face it, weed and pest are the most important problems to be solve in gardening and I never thought that there is a very easy and simply way for doing good gardening.

I have just planted dandelions, purslane, millet, wild lettuce in my garden beds to improve the soil. Weeds bring up many minerals that the veggies don't. I am not sure where the hate of weeds ever came from. Weeds improve the soil. I noticed in a bed when mulch was thin, and the grass came up through it, the English peas did better than in areas with thick (weedless) mulch, so now I encourage my weeds. The peas were more productive, and healthier. I have a notil garden, so I guess that is why. Constant tillage promotes weeds. Nature is trying to fix what we broke. Nature abhors bare ground. The more bare ground you have, the more weeds you will have. The more you til the worse your "so called" weed problem will be.

When I needed to plant into a bed covered in weeds, I weed wacked it. I am sure it was faster and easier than chemicals or pulling. This was only to allow sun to hit the newly planted seeds and to provide mulch for the hungry soil life. Mostly I did this, to install a trellis for my cowpeas. I hate digging to insert the poles, but this is a one time thing (until the poles rot), so soil life should not be too angry with me.

I was not interested in "killing" the weeds, just making them shorter. I use soil plugs in the mulch so I do not have to pull the mulch back to sow seeds. Seeds will not sprout where plants already exists thicky, which is the main reason I thick we got the idea weeds are bad. Just cut back the weeds where you plant the seed and and area around the spot to allow sun to hit it. Pulling weeds or crops is a no no for me. The roots aerate the soil, and provide food for the soil life after they die. Rootless soil get compacted easily and is very bad for soil life. When alive, any sort of roots are teaming with life to help your garden. Gardeners should get more in tune with nature (and the way God made earth's garden) and promote life not death, by killing weeds, pests, fungus, earthworms and other soil life. When killing is focused on, the work load increases. If soil life is killed by gardening practices that do not respect soil life, you will have to use fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, and more water. Pests only are attracted to sick plants. Weeds only show up where they are needed. Feed the soil, not the plants.

I planted cowpeas directly in the sod. It performed better than the mulched bed.

The American Indians only weeded right around the freshly sown corn seeds, to help it to sprout and to let it get sunlight, but when the corn got taller they did not waste time on such silliness. I think that weeding came into vogue from places with extremely short and cold summers, like england. I guess the theory is, that bare soil is warmer. Everywhere else weeding is really not necessary.

I think to emulate nature is the easiest way to garden.
Here is some info on nature's way.

The Weeds as Indicators Of Soil Conditions

The Weeds Friends or Foe?

The Using Weeds as Indicators of Turf Management and Environmental Conditions

Soil Indicator Weeds

Soil What Weeds Can Tell You About Your Garden

Soil Controlling weeds and pests

Soil Healthy Naturally Weed Power - Weeds and What they Mean

If you are at battle with your weeds and like everything to look neat and tidy, then the newspaper and mulch thing works great. I had no weeds when I have used that technique. Mulch is hard to come by here in July and August in Texas, unless I plan to waste water by watering the yard to get the grass to grow in the heat of summer. That is how I decided to go with the flow and use nature's way to keep the soil cooler and moisture in by allowing weeds to get tall. The longer the weed's roots, the farther down water will penetrate.

Lakedallasmary: You forgot the really big thing weeds do for you: habitat for predators. Many predators simply won't venture across big expanses of open area. They often like to ambush their prey. I find that my predator populations tend to be much, much higher in weeded areas than weedless ones.

Never forget Ruth Stout!

I am with Annie-Lee on this one. Who doesn't do a walk thru of their gardens at least a couple of times a week? It is so easy to just carry along a light weight hoe and put out a whack here, and a whack there. Yes, I mulch. Alot. But that doesn't control it all and those $#%@& grasses have more lives than a cat.

The thing is, if you don't enjoy the time you are out there, whether it be spent havesting or weeding or sniffing the daisies - if it becomes more chore than hobby - you probably have more garden than you should.