I think its like, 10-12 weeks before your first frost date, but i'm sure it also depends on the maturity date. Look on the packet, and subtract the days of maturity from your last frost date, and that should give you a good idea of when to plant

Thanks Greenthumb. It suddenly occurs to me that I'm not sure of our first frost date. I'll find that out, and do as you suggest.

Thanks again,
Karen

My advice is to plant fall vegetables now. Don't wait for late August. Frost is not the main issue. Weather can cool dramatically in September, which will slow the growth of many vegetables. So you want to have them well on their way by then.

I was pleasantly surprised the first time I planted fall crops.

Jim

Check with your state's Extension Service. Each county should have it's own Cooperative Extension Office which provides free publications and information for the asking. They will have valuable vegetable/gardening tables available specifically for your area determined by universities and horticultural research scientists who have collected data from growing those crops in your state. Your tax dollars are already paying for this service so you may as well get some use out of it.

Vegetable Planting and Planning Calendar for Missouri (download the pdf) complete with spring and fall planting dates (underneath the spring planting dates for appropriate crops), how much to plant per person, etc. They can also tell you the average last frost date for your area and ideal planting times for specific crops and varieties in your area.

See how detailed this example is:

{{gwi:4005}}

I agree - plant now. I have Fall broccoli going since 7/4, as well as kohlrabi, more beets, more chard, more carrots, more mustard, and a bunch of other stuff. I am about to put some peas in too. Plant some Kale if you don't already have it going - it lasts through a bunch of freezes.

I'm late. But then I've been late planting stuff all year. I have some broccoli sprouts inside under lights, but they won't be ready to harden off for at least another 2-3 weeks. But broccoli handles frost, so I'll try it.

Yes...plant now! Most fall crops benefit from the cooler fall temps and many of them can take a light frost.

Lilacs_of_may...just curious...why do you have your broccoli sprouts under lights?

I am not Lilacs of May, but i start some things under lights for fall because the coolness of the basement makes for heartier plants than the heat outside allows during the tender stage (and no bugs!). Those i start that way have been more successful in our climate.
Glad

.just curious...why do you have your broccoli sprouts under lights?

Violet, I think I've seen that same county extension cut and paste at least 30 times now. Now...if you took the time to find the planting dates for the region of the poster, that might feel a bit different. But the reality is you keep pasting the same thing again and again and again.....and then turn around and scold other people for asking a question that could be posted in another forum or a question that has been addressed in other threads.

Sorry to sigh and complain about it in your posting Karbie, I guess I reached my limit there. Per your question Karbie; your fall pea and bean crops would need to go in now and turnips, collards, etc could go in mid to late August.

Here's a link to the University of Illinois Agriculture Extension page on vegetables:

Here is a link that might be useful: A guide to growing, storing, and preparing vegetables in Illinois

Yes, I agree Granite, that a chart specific to the poster would be more helpful. Plus, not every agricultural extension has a nice chart like that either. Ours just gives general planting information based on soil temperatures. I wish ours was in a calendar form with specific planting dates,like the one above, since I have no idea what my soil temperature is anyway.

I just planted more carrots yesterday, and a couple more cucembers and bush beans, even though I may be too late on those two. The empty spaces in my veggie patch were bugging me, so I figured what did I have to lose.

I've got seeds for some Purple Sprouting Broccoli too, and I wondered if it was too late to plant that? Not for sure what that is, but the seeds were a freebie, and I know broccoli is a cool season veggie.

Granite,

If you've seen that chart 30 times, I've seen it 300. Time to give it a rest.

I too like that University of Illinois site. It has good basic information which probably is useful over a large part of the country.

Jim

Amen!

Start the fall seedlings indoor or outdoor, that's the question? Well, personally I much prefer doing it outdoors. Yes, it is hot and buggy, but I use pots and place them in a suitably shady area. The seedling sprout easily and they are not bothered by slugs and insects. I water them often and they become ready quickly (no hardening is needed). Of course I can't do this for carrots and turnips, etc. Neither can you do those on indoors. I just hate to do this kind of thing in the basement except in early spring when there is no choice for you otherwise.

granite,

I don't have the time to search every single person's county information. This forum is for sharing information. If you see the same info, it just means you read more threads. Some people come here, post one question and only refer to that thread so they are grateful for any information they get.

I can copy and paste the list of extensions I created four years ago but that information is outdated now and I'm not going to update it every week, that's ridiculous! So instead I provide a direct link to a page with every state's extension office.

Don't know where the scolding idea came from. Some questions would definitely receive more response in other forums, some not, the suggestion to post in a different forum is certainly not a scold by any means. We are all here for the same reason folks!

Violet, if you look above I'm not the only one in a 2 hour period who's chimed in that they've seen that cut and paste more times than reason allows. Please give it a rest, or at least limit it to folks who are in your state and ask for it.

And yes, I've read your chastisement of others for re-asking questions or asking questions that could have gone to a more specialized forum. If you answered their question with your experience, maybe I wouldn't perceive it as a scold. But you don't answer their question, you just bash them for asking it when it was asked last year; or when it could have been asked in the tomato or compost or allium or harvest forums. I only read the herb and veggie forms and occasionally the potager and hummingbird forums. I've seen that particular planting chart at least 30 times this year. Its annoying to me. I'm sure that its not annoying to the occasional beginner visitor to these forums. I'm sure others will post here to support your habits. And again Karbie, sorry to sigh and complain here in your thread. I just reached my limit for looking at Violet's volumes of repetitive cut and paste gardening info that only tangentially relates to the topic at hand.

I'm pretty new to veggie gardening, but there's a wealth of information out there. I agree the best place to start is at your county extension office. Maybe do a google search for "vegetable planting dates" or "vegetable gardening web sites" or "how to start a vegetable garden." Google searches always help me if I'm willing to sift through the sites a little.
Violet's info has helped me in the past, but I'm a newbie also. I have seen that particular site posted many times as well as the "post you favorite varieties here" post--Cornell U. I think. I've learned not to ask a question before I at least search the GardenWeb site, do a google search, and go to Texas A&M, our state ag. school.
I do get feedback on specific questions on these forums though. I like to share my progress and see what others are doing also.

We need to get back to Karen's original question re fall veggies, which is a good one.

Before we do however, let's take a trip down memory lane to August 2006. Click the link below.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: Unhelpful Replies

I won't comment on violet's cut and paste, she probably has a bunch of html documents already lined up to post, (Missouri planting dates, Integrated Pest Management, etc) maybe stored in her My Documents folder if she uses Windows.

One of the best sites I found was http://chestnut-sw.com/growform.htm

You simply select Spring or Fall planting, the date, and enter your last spring frost date and your first fall frost date (there are many sites you can find this info) and it calculates what to sow indoors, outdoors, harden off & transplant.

Weekend Gardener - Practical Horticulture for Busy People

Today's Date: July 28, 2007

Fall GrowGuide

Your Last Spring Frost Date: May 20

Your First Fall Frost Date: October 02

Tasks calculated for week of July 24, 2007 (10 weeks before first fall frost)





TASK
NEW THIS WEEK. . .
ONGOING. . .
LAST CHANCE. . .

SOW
INDOORS


leaf lettuce



SOW
OUTDOORS
beets
carrots
turnips
kale
kohlrabi
mustard greens
peas

HARDEN
OFF
head lettuce (6/5 - 6/11)

broccoli (6/12 - 6/18)




TRANSPLANT
broccoli (6/5 - 6/11)



cauliflower (6/12 - 6/18)

It probably didn't format above correctly but you get my idea.

Then, just use the Back button and change the date to next week's, recalculate, print, Back button, change date, recalculate, etc, print it out for every week.

It's even easier if you have Adobe Acrobat Professional (not Adobe Reader but the full blown program that lets you create pdf files.) With Acrobat Professional, open the website, keep doing as instructed above for each week, and then save the pdf file. You know have a pdf file for the year that you can read whenever you want. I usually do this every year or use the previous year's and just change the dates by about 2 days to line up the same. (Sunday, July 29th, 2007 for example--next year the 29th will fall on a different day of the week.)

I even do this and change the Spring & fall setting so I end up with a complete overlapping/interwoven Spring & Fall growing guide for the entire year in 1 file. See the left side of the pic below, with Spring & Fall combined.

{{gwi:85815}}

Now maybe if violet can round up a list of frost dates for everybody...

Hope this helps.

Mark

It probably didn't format above correctly but you get my idea.

Then, just use the Back button and change the date to next week's, recalculate, print, Back button, change date, recalculate, etc, print it out for every week.

It's even easier if you have Adobe Acrobat Professional (not Adobe Reader but the full blown program that lets you create pdf files.) With Acrobat Professional, open the website, keep doing as instructed above for each week, and then save the pdf file. You know have a pdf file for the year that you can read whenever you want. I usually do this every year or use the previous year's and just change the dates by about 2 days to line up the same. (Sunday, July 29th, 2007 for example--next year the 29th will fall on a different day of the week.)

I even do this and change the Spring & fall setting so I end up with a complete overlapping/interwoven Spring & Fall growing guide for the entire year in 1 file. See the left side of the pic below, with Spring & Fall combined.

{{gwi:85815}}

Now maybe if violet can round up a list of frost dates for everybody...

Hope this helps.

Mark

Here is a link that might be useful: GrowGuide- Weekend Gardener

Seriously? What are you all bitc**ing about?

I admit I'm a lurker but only because there are people here like Violet and Jim and Bill who consistently respond with information that continues to help other people who use this and other forums, including me! I don't feel any of them have ever "scolded" anyone. And I have zero problem with anyone copying and pasting the same information as a response so long as it act to help the original poster of the thread. So what if someone informs them of one of the over 120 other forums that many don't know about? Who cares!?

The fact that any of them take the time to respond at all whether it be information you have seen once or 2,543 times, shouldn't matter to anyone but the original person who created the thread in the first place - who if they took the time to search the forum - might have found it answered already!

If you don't have information to provide, then don't bit*h about other people taking their time to answer. It's a public forum and everyone can answer how they please so long as it's within the rules. If you don't want to read an identical answer to the same question from yet another person then use your mouse button or your arrow keys and scroll down! Each and every one of them has the right to respond how they please. (And to each of you, keep doing what you're doing the way you do it. There is room for everyone here without criticizing others. It's what makes this place so great!)

Cut and paste away V! There are always new members here asking the same old questions which is more tiring to me than seeing consistent answers. No reason for you to literally type the same answer over and over to make the regulars happy. I suspect they're fully capable of skipping to the next post or thread or spending less time in front of the screen.

Oh, and as for that chart (and to get back on topic), just look at it. If you download the document in its entirety, you can clearly create a list of vegetables which can be planted in the fall. Just make a list of all the vegetables that have fall planting dates. See? It DOES answer the question! Doh!

Wow! It's the first chance I've had to check today, and can't believe all the responses. I appreciate all replies, and will get started ASAP. I will also check out the sites you've recommended when I get a chance. I tend to get a little lazy in the research department, because I prefer to spend all my time outside. That's why I love GardenWeb. If I have a minute, I post a question and POOF. All the answers in one spot!

Thanks again,
Karen

Hey Karen, Go ahead and plant whatever you want. Watch what it does and then remember that experience. Forget about "global warming" , zone this and that, and such. Just remember what it did, and plant earlier or later, next year. Gardening is a learning experience that is hands on and much more more trial and error then what an "expert" will tell you. There are some very knowledgeable gardeners on this board, BUT, and I emphasize here, only YOU can determine through experiencing success and failure what works for you in your area , in your garden, and what you do as a "gardener".
Most importently, is, that you ENJOY the experience and learn from it and become a happy gardener in the end! Have fun!

korney19,

What does operating system have to do with anything?

Violet, when I mentioned you may already have templates made so all you have to do is paste the html code from a template... Windows versions have a "My Documents" folder that I thought maybe you may have them all in for easy access. I personally don't know what a Mac has for folders, so used the example I know... Windows. I doubt that you actually go to each page on the 'net and view the html code of each document and then come back to the thread and paste it in your reply... you're too fast for that! LOL.

Also, and I'm sure you didn't know it and don't do it intentionally, every time you post that Extension page with asparagus & bean planting times for Missouri, you are bending/breaking the rules of the GardenWeb forums regarding pictures; no wonder why you are often the first replier!

Karen - What part of Illinois are you in, anyway? :)

I'm in the (slightly distant) NW suburbs of Chicago.

Just two days ago I planted soaked beans and peas; my early beans got hit hard by insect damage in the spring, and my peas are just about spent so I'm hoping for at least a small fall crop.

I'm hoping to do another run of radishes next month, and this week I'm doing another round of carrots.

*IF* you can still find veggie starts at a garden center/nursery, you might have luck finding matured tomatoes left still - or more appropriate fall/early winter crops. I'm thinking maybe very cold-happy squash and the like.

Also, if you're fairly close, I could probably share seed - I have tons of bean and pea left, and I'm pretty sure I'll have radish and carrot seed also.

Might try quick lettuce or spinach - not sure, though, I haven't looked into those myself.

I do check the email GW has attached on this account. Frequently, really, but I know GW's email program has had a lot of issues. I haven't gotten anything sent through the email system yet this year, but I'll try to check here as well sometime this week.
:D

-Beth

I am in central Illinois, near Bloomington. That's quite a way from you Beth, but thanks for the offer of seeds. Actually, I have a number of seeds left over, and plan to sow lettuce (if I can rig up something for shade), spinach, radishes, carrots, broccoli, and peas. Is there enough time for kohlrabi? I just planted some really stunted pepper and tomato plants, and now I'm just hoping to keep them alive long enough for them to produce.

Thanks to you too, Mailman. I'll do just that. I'll sow my seeds, and note how they do.

Enjoy your Sunday,
Karen

Those of you who frequent the threads know that I type out many more responses than I do answer with the same response. And I only answer with the same response if the original poster of the thread would benefit from that information.

Karen, I am not breaking any GardenWeb rules. Extension Service material is specifically created to disseminate information to the public for "Educational Use". Spike created this website for the purposes of sharing information so long as there is no intent of financial gain. Certainly not making any money volunteering any information from the state what was created for distribution in the first place.

State extension services are part of he Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service (CSREES) which is an agency within the U.S. Department of Agriculture, part of the executive branch of the Federal Government. Congress created CSREES through the 1994 Department Reorganization Act.

“Extension” means “reaching out,” and�"along with teaching and research�"land-grant institutions “extend” their resources, solving public needs with college or university resources through non-formal, non-credit programs.

I could add the answers to the FAQ but then the FAQ would be a book and then there would inevitably be criticism for referring people to the FAQ over and over...

...not every agricultural extension has a nice chart like that either. Ours just gives general planting information based on soil temperatures. I wish ours was in a calendar form with specific planting dates,like the one above, since I have no idea what my soil temperature is anyway.

highalttransplant,

You can take a cheap kitchen thermometer and stick in the ground at a diagonal to a depth of 6 inches, then you'll know your soil temperature.

As for a chart/table from your state extension, there is one right here (from your Colorado Extension Service):

{{gwi:85816}}

Perhaps this link would help. At least everyone would have an opportunity to find their own cooperative extension office to do some research.

Here is a link that might be useful: cooperative extension index

Jim.

The circle has come around. That infomration in the first sentence of my post above, posted Jul 27, 07 at 17:45.

"...Check with your state's Extension Service."

*wink*

Now maybe if violet can round up a list of frost dates for everybody...

Mark,

I know you all think I'm a robot but I do have to do things like eat, sleep, work, etc. (*wink*)

With over 3,143 counties, parishes and independent cities in the United States, and since they are constantly changing, it would obviously be impractical for one person to make a list of all of them when the information can easily be found online or through your county Extension Offie is for (just call and ask). Or refer to the USDA Hardiness Zone Map to find your area...

Here is a link that might be useful: USDA Hardiness Zone Map

Violet, I know you're not a robot! lol

OK, couple things. I know you put a lot of confidence in County Extensions but as you know from the posts in my Garlic Bed Free til October... thread, my experiences with them were rather poor. The first time I ever called my Extension office was to get the "last frost date" for my city. I know I didn't get a straight answer from them... matter of fact, it was a long time ago and if I remember correctly, they either couldn't tell me, didn't know, or gave me a range of maybe 10-14 days... or a combination of them. That, to me, is unacceptable. Living in the city, while there are microclimates, it's not like I asked for the last frost date of my specific address right down the the house, nor did I ask a complicated or trick question like what is it for the county (which would be hard to answer because of the different locations, topography, etc. This was back in the 1990's, maybe things have changed and they are more organized and can spew answers now at half "Violet-speed." I'd be even satisfied if they spewed answers at even one tenth as quickly as you. I hope things are better in other County Extensions than here.

As for hardiness zones, I find them pretty useless because they really are just indicators of how low your temps ever get. You can have the same zone in, say, northern TX as western NY over 1000 miles away, but high temps can be 30 degrees difference on a given day. And last frost dates can be months apart. And seed starting dates can be months apart for the same veggie in those two zone 6 states.

When I joked about you finding the frost dates, I really just meant to find sites that listed them. I would never ask you to compile them here, but meant links where just about anyone can go to the same site and look up their closest town to get a reasonably accurate frost date. I think the old farmer's almanac, Victory Seeds, and a few other places may have frost dates listed for many towns & cities. I think this would be more helpful to everyone than the chart and link to County Extensions, plus, in direct relation to this thread's topic, could be used with the chestnut-sw.com link I provided to answer the question of what can be grown for fall & when to start seeds.

As for the reply to Karen about not breaking any rules, I think you took that the wrong way. It wasn't about posting govt/county extension info here on GW, but posting pics. GW's rules say pics are to be 60kb or less, it was just a technicality I was citing you on--that asparagus & beans page for Missouri is almost 200% the filesize allowed by GW... and we all know how often you post that pic to make your point! Even the last chart you posted for CO is over the limit allowed!

I don't post pics as often as I used to... I used to post a lot of pics on the Growing Tomatoes Forum on GW. To stay within GW's guidelines, a lot of work often goes into "preparing" a pic that will meet the guidelines--not just resizing & editing, but optimizing, reducing filesize, etc. And if it's your own pic, uploading it to a photo account, add setting permissions & file attributes, etc. Sometimes it's a lot of work that is never realized by viewers who see the pic--for example, the Fall GrowGuide pic I posted went thru the website, into Adobe, screen captured, cropped & resized in an image program, compressed in a Jpeg optimizer program, uploaded to a webspace where permissions & attributes had to be set so anybody can view it, and "img src" html tagged in my post. As it was originally, it would have violated the GW pic size limit.

You also wrote, "I could add the answers to the FAQ but then the FAQ would be a book and then there would inevitably be criticism for referring people to the FAQ over and over..."

Actually, the first thing GW says, on the forum's first page, is, "Before posting a question, please check the FAQ and do a search to make sure it hasn't already been answered." I know writing FAQs is a real pain, I helped on parts of the Growing Tomatoes Forum's FAQ and it was a lot of work that often goes overlooked. But even if you think it would be "as long as a book," the answers would be present for everyone to see without even having to post or start a thread. Referring someone to the FAQs may be easier on others than seeing the extension pic as the answer all the time... or the IPM post...

Don't worry, you won't be relegated to "Maytag Repairman" status from your near-robot-like current self! (*wink*)

Sincerely,

'MaterMark

Thanks Violet, for that chart. I found that same one when I was searching for fall planting information. Unfortunately, that information is specific to a 4 county area that is west of me, and much warmer and drier than here. The frost dates I have found are also for that area or the Front Range, which is a couple of hundred miles from here! I just emailed the extension requesting frost dates for MY area, so hopefully I will soon have the information needed to plan my fall garden.

Thanks again for your help,

Bonnie