Sailfish,

I'd start building 8 ft high 8 ft wide fence sections over the winter if you want apples in a few years. You can set the posts and sections when the ground thaws. A local carpenter might supply and install a 100' fence for a $1000. Four hundred foot sections is quarter of an acre. You can plant squash/garden as well. The rough sawn hemlock wood is inexpensive and very sturdy. Then you only have to spray insecticides and water every week.
Folks on this board bag their fruit to stave off just the insects. You have the deer, the bears, the moose, the porcupines, the hares. In our cabin zone 5 or 4 in upstate N.Y., 25 trees survive out of 125. All were bought locally, and some from St. Lawrence Nursery. The trees that survived were crab apples, wild ; apples, pears, and plums. The last good apples were finished off by the bear that crushed the cage and tree(like you described). Best of luck

I would like to plant the trees on both sides of a driveway. Fencing will not be feasible. I have wondered about the mesh cages as to the sturdiness. 10 gauge wire mesh you can bend with some force of your hands. 6 gauge wire mesh this it is not at all possible. and then there's 4 gauge. A bear can rip the locked door off a car. no tree is safe. There are mini orchards here and there with unprotected trees. I could stop and ask how they did it but I'm sure we're not willing to go as far as I suspect they did for some apples. Thanks for the heads up!

Sailfish,

Good Apples are impossible to grow in the interior Maine woods on the weekends. When the temps are right the bugs are not going to wait for you to spray them. Plant an equal number of hardy std. pears. Pears need very little spraying and deer don't browse pears much. Summmer crisp pear may be a good choice because it does not need to be ripened off the tree before eating.
St. Lawrence Nurseries has an expert planting guide(and pear selection) for northern fruit tree growers. See screening section for browsers. BOL

Here is a link that might be useful: Planting guide

Don't be discouraged by the former messages. You can protect the trees with five foot tall ten foot lengths of 14 gauge wire fencing secured with a single post. Use MM111 root stock if possible and grow the trees above the browse line by protecting them with individual circles of fencing. Weave the fencing on the post after driving the post in the ground (after planting and mulching your trees). Close the circles of fencing by using a few of the loose wires left on one end of the fence after cutting. In three or four years I'll tell you how to protect your fruit from all insect and disease problems with 2 to 4 sprays. You will have about a 5 day window for application which will probably start in the first couple weeks of June in your zone.

I manage over a hundred orchards in the vicinity of southeastern NY and many of them are on weekend homes. I know what I'm talking about from decades of experience. In horticulture, people are always telling you you can't do something, often they are wrong.

Thanks for the link Ace, I enjoy the comprehensive information they supply. I have some great neighbors and I have established relationships with a few local farmers in the area. Everybody seems to want to help out. One guy I deal with is willing to take care of the apple trees till I move up there with the Mrs. in 09 or 10. Sounds like he has a customer base not unlike Harvestsman. I ordered the apple trees from Fedco. Looks like they come on antonovka root stock. He'll plant them in the spring. As for the garden I'm looking into a seven wire baited electric fence to ward of the pillagers. I enjoy reading the forum and will keep an eye out for interesting stuff like Konrads supernatural grafting skills. Warn me about everything. I enjoy the challenge!

Salifish
Any protection is better then none, I was in the same boat about 15 years ago when putting in some trees and spend good money to buy me about 8 good size trees.
After about 3 years all died, except a Rescue Crab, because I have planted them in low ground of the property, me thinking, they would grow better because of more water in the ground. They grew fine but had never a chance to harden off in fall and all succumbed to winter freeze.
I did buy a few more and planted them on higher ground.
Then I figured, if I wanted a good size orchard and not kill my bank account I have to start from scratch!
I then collected crab apple seeds, planted them in fall and grafted about in the 3rd. season.
OH...thanks for then compliment.

Here is a picture from a farm wire fence cage, 4 feet high, I think it's time to take them off.
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Not sure if you have seen this already.
Additional Deer and Moose protection I do with a trip line, fishing line strung to a post with shot caps. [picture]
I only set this up late fall and go out about every weekend and re - load the tripped ones.
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Top
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Fortunately, I could build this on my own, I'm a machinist, if you had a little home shop with lathe and a drill you
could build this, I'm sure.
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This is the new orchard grown from seeds, hardly seeing the difference in size from the ones I bought about 6 years
earlier.
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Konrad

Konrad, those photos gave me goosebumps. The resoursefulness of fruitworshippers never ceases to amaze me. We don't have moose down here but bear are becomming increasingly more common. Someday soon I may have to set up something like your system and hope it works on bear.

Boy, Konrad, I'll never try to sneak up on your place. If I ever decide to install self-defense mechanisms in the Jellyman orchard, I'll just send you the specs.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Thank you Harvestman & Don!
LOL...LOL

I think that's a "Bouncing Betty"

Sailfish:

I have 115 apple and peach trees in WVA and theyre all caged. Its not so bad of a job really. Go to Home Depot or Lowes and buy two 4' metal stakes per tree. (About 2 bucks each). Then get a roll of 4' tall heavy gauge metal fencing. A 50' roll is about 25 bucks and will protect 6-8 trees per roll. (so you'll need two rolls). Hammer the stakes in the ground about 3-4'apart then wrap the wire fencing around the stakes. Put the wire about 2' off the ground. No deer will go that low to eat the trunk and, although they will stand on their hind legs to eat, they wont do it because of the fencing. They dont like anything that hits their noses.

One other recommendation...while your at HD or Lowes, buy a 10' section of plastic drain pipe (maybe $10). Cut it into 6-8" sections, then cut it up the sides. Put these around the trunk of the trees. When you weed eat around them, it will protect them very nicely.

Something I didnt think of until now though, is you have Mooose in Maine. Theyre big to, so maybe youll have to make adjustments for them...

I have lots of photos of how I did my trees. I always have trouble remembering how to post on here. I'll try to re-figure it out and either post or put a link up.

I've had to deal with every kind of lame tree cage on my job. Sometimes the cages are like heavy wire prisons where I have to cut my way in. Sometimes they are protected with monofilament netting that really makes me crazy catching in my buttons and tangeling with branches.

If you want to exclude deer, build an 8' fence around your orchard (at least where it snows) or be prepared to occassionaly herd a stray deer (or shooting it) with a shorter fence.

The cage that I suggested earlier is the best for training trees above the browse line in most cases. You can enjoy your deer and let them patrol the drops. On an occassional site where deer are allowed to reach great size due to limited hunting you may need 4 stakes and more fence.

In the county where I do most of my work much of the populace view their deer like Hindus their cattle. The bucks have Methusda life expectancies and are exceptionally big and hungry. In spite of their near Elk stature, usually only one stake does the trick and by connecting the fence to itself at only three points you can easily reach the tree and swing the fencing away from the tree for pruning and weed control. It takes only about 10 minutes to drive the stake, cut the fencing and circle it around the tree.

Sailfish,

A fruit tree grower in Georgia has 7 1/2' black monofiliment deer fence. Complete, about a buck a foot includes shipping. BOL

Here is a link that might be useful: Deer Fencing

Sailfish, something that you probably should take into consideration is the rootstock(s) that you plan to use. Not sure about Mass., but here in Maine, we have Crown Rot and Fireblight. When I first planted my first orchard, I made the mistake of planting several hundreds of dollars worth of crown rot susseptible rootstocks. Whithin 2 years, all of them died. Many apple cultivars are susseptible to crown rot also, so if planting full sized trees, they will probably need to be planted with the graft scar above the soil. The best standard rootstock that I have found for Maine zone 4 is Malling 4, which for some reason is quickly disappearing from the nurseries. I have found Antonovka to be useful for nursing stock only, due to its extreme variability in vigor and disease resistance. Nursing stock is rootstock that helps the tree get a start until the tree can make roots of its own. The graft is buried several inches.

If the nursery can't tell you which rootstock they use, find another nursery.

A couple years ago, I made a list of rootstocks that are resistant Crown Rot and grow well for me. Most are also resistant to Fire Blight. If you're interested, here's the list:

------------------------

I have indicated beside each cultivar the percentage of the height and width of a full sized tree. For example, a full sized 20-year-old McIntosh growing on its own roots may grow to be approx. 18 feet tall & 30 feet wide, but a McIntosh of the same age growing on Budagovski 9 may grow to be only 30-40% of that height and width, being approx 7 feet tall & 12 feet wide.
The percentage is an indication of dwarfing in one dimension only, not in three dimensions as is used in computing volume. For some reason, it is an industry standard to list only one dimension (e.g. height) when comparing size, so I have listed it in this way. One can figure out the approximate volume of a tree or bush by using the formula (Percentage x Percentage x 11) / 7. Thus one can figure out the approximate size of a McIntosh growing on Bud 9. Bud 9 grows a tree approx. 30-40% in height, so well average it to 35%, which = 0.35.
(0.35 x 0.35 x 11) / 7 = 1.3475 / 7 = 0.1925 = 19.25%
Thus an apple tree growing on Bud 9 actually grows to be approx. 19.25% standard, or about 5 times smaller than a full sized tree, instead of only about 3 times smaller.

100% Novole - Grows well on most soil types and is resistant to Crown Rot, Fire Blight, and meadow voles.

100% Polish 18 (Poland 18, P.18) - Grows well on most soils and is resistant to Crown Rot, Scab, Powdery Mildew, and is tolerant to Fire Blight.

80-90% Malling 4 (M.4) - This early bearing, productive rootstock is resistant to Crown Rot and is tolerant to Fire Blight. Trees grafted onto it have a tendency to lean in the early years, so trees should be staked until roots are established. It grows well on most soil types.

60-70% EMLA 7 (7A) - Trees have good anchorage and should not need to be staked. It is resistant to Crown Rot, and is also tolerant to Fire Blight, but will not grow well in wet soils or heavy clay. Not very productive, however it is still one of the most common semi-dwarf rootstocks used in North America. That may change with some of the newer Geneva rootstocks being developed.

55-60% Geneva 30 (G.30) - Early bearing and very productive, trees should be staked as graft unions can sometimes be weak, depending upon the cultivar. Resistant to Crown Rot and Fire Blight, it grows well on most soil types.

50-60% Geneva 935 (G.935) - Very early bearing and very productive, trees may need to be staked in the early years until roots are fully established. Resistant to Crown Rot and Fire Blight. It grows well on most soil types.

40-50% Geneva 11 (G.11) - Very early bearing and very productive, trees will need to be staked in the early years. It grows well on most soil types and is resistant to Crown Rot and Fire Blight.

30-40% Geneva 41 (G.41) - Very early bearing and very productive, trees will need to be staked throughout their lives. It is resistant to Crown Rot and Fire Blight. It grows well on most soil types.

30-40% EMLA 9 (9A) - Very Early bearing and productive, trees will need to be staked throughout their lives. It is resistant to Crown Rot, but does not tolerate dry, light soils.

30-40% Budagovski 9 (Bud 9, B.9) - Very early bearing and very productive, trees will need to be staked throughout their lives. It is resistant to Crown Rot, Scab, and Powdery Mildew, but does not tolerate wet soils.

20-30% Polish 16 (Poland 16, P.16) - Very early bearing and very productive. It grows well on most soil types, but will need staking throughout its life.

10-20% Polish 22 (Poland 22, P.22) - This productive and very early bearing rootstock requires staking throughout its life. It grows well on most soil types, and is resistant to Crown Rot and European Canker.

So what's wrong with old reliable 1ll up there? At least it's a rootstock that you can actually find for sale with a cultivar attached.

You might be able to avoid collar-rot, at least it works here, by planting your trees on large raised mounds and keeping them well mulched (away from the crown) so the mounds don't gradually erode. As I understand it, collar rot is about excess moisture. Raised mounds will not only solve that problem but will accelerate the establishment significantly. Warms up quicker, keeps lots of oxygen in the mix and resists compaction.

M111 grows okay for me in places where the ground isn't almost constantly moist. Otherwise it has problems. Unfortunately, on our property we have very few places like that. Raised mounds don't work for us. Except for the 3 week no rain spell each August, our soil is literally drenched the rest of the year. It is said that in Maine, you'll never die of thirst since if you walk one mile in any one direction, you'll hit water. What I've seen of the state, the "one mile" should be changed to 1000 feet. Just within sight of my front door, there is a river one direction, a bog another direction, and a spring yet another direction. From what I understand, most of the state is like this. Flat land is fairly uncommon and the water collects in the deep parts. And when the ground freezes in November, the water level rises until the ground thaws in April. So it isn't uncommon for many of the orchards around here to be under some water during the spring thaw, even in the mountainous regions.

So if the raised mounds work well for you, great. Unfortunately, they don't work for us in most circumstances. I must say that the list above doesn't list the only Crown Rot resistant rootstocks around. There are many more. The list is just what we have found to work well for us. Your mileage may be different.

Me-man, I have established orchards in marsh using this technique. What doesn't work for you?- what is the elevation of the raised beds. At some point you create the necessary drainage no matter what the water table. If you have to use planks to raise the beds to 4', so be it. Maybe there's something going on here I don't understand.

You haven't articulated the cause of the soppines of your soil. Is it a problem of cappilary flow? Sand under clay? Or is it just clay over clay. You have me intriged now.

Hello Sailfish,

I totally agree with Harvestman. Don't be discouraged. I have been in your shoes and let me tell you it can be done successfully. I have an orchard of 350 apple trees totaling over 65 varieties in remote Northern Michigan. It is about 300 miles from where I live. My worst enemy is the deer followed by rabbits, raccoons, porkypines, and bear. The most cost effective way to stop the deer that I found was five foot tall concrete reenforcement wire mesh. I cut 15 foot lengths which made approximately 5 foot diameter circle cages. It is very strong and needs no additional support. Even in high winds. It can be hooked together by itself to form a cirlce. It comes in 150 foot rolls so each roll does about 10 trees. It has been a few years but it was around $50 per roll. It is not galvanized but it has lasted me over 10 years and still usable. I take it off the bigger trees and use it to plant new ones. Without this my fruit tree is literally gone in 1 day from the deer. A small 24" high wire mesh with 1/2 inch squares loosely around the trunk protects each tree from rabbits. Just make sure the snow does not go above it. If it does taller ones may be needed. A regular spray schedule only 4 -5 times will take care of any major bugs and disease. The apples won't be perfect but they be nice. I use m111 and antanovka rootstock which give me a big enough tree when mature so the deer don' bother them.