A heat pump would be ideal for your climate. I live in Maryland with a similar climate.

What is the total delivered cost of electricity to your home? Total delivered cost means generation plus transmission plus distribution. For example, I pay 10.1 cents/kw-hr generation plus 2.37 cents/kw-hr delivery plus .4 cents/kw-hr transmission = 12.9 cents/kw-hr total.

You should get at least 3 quotes from reputable HVAC companies. Don't wait until the summer when it is their busy season. Make sure that the quotes contain the model numbers of both the condenser (outside unit) and air handler (inside unit). Having model numbers on the quotes will prevent the "bait and switch" plus it will allow me to provide you efficiency and performance info.

The heat pump will require back-up electric strips in the air handler, probably 15 kw. You may (or may not) need an electrical upgrade to handle the required power. Just so you know.

Your cooling costs are determined by the EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) and not SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio) much to the disbelief of many people. 13 SEER is the minimum allowed by law. Whichever SEER system you get, make sure that you get a 12 EER minimum.

Have the quoting contractor inspect your ductwork for leaks especially if they run in the attic.

A load calculation (called a Manual J) is the industry standard for properly sizing the HVAC system. Most companies do not do it.

A PARTS AND LABOR warranty is a good idea for your peace of mind. Typical manufacturers warranties cover labor for only 1 to 2 years, parts from 5 to 10 years depending on the manufacturer.

A good installation is more important than brand name.

That about it for now. If I think of anything else, I'll re-post.

PS: I have no grandparents. Would you consider adopting me?

Take care.

1000.00 to heat AND cool 1800 sq. ft seems quite reasonable.
I would consider it a bargain. Of course I'm in different zone.
You need to realize that 15 years ago many things were cheaper.
I don't know if you'd truly be ahead after all the upfront costs.
What are you expecting to pay:
1. for the unit?
2. annually for heat and AC?
-br

I agree with Garyg that the heat pump is going to be far more economical than propane in almost all places. As I posted in response to another question, a friend recently installed a dual-fuel system with a heat pump and propane backup heat, and he is saving a fortune on propane this year. His electric bills haven't been more than $110. This is in Kentucky, probably fairly similar climate to yours.

But, of course, you have to factor in the cost of a whole new system. When you say you have been told you should replace your system, why was that advice given? If it was because your system is getting old (which it is) and may soon need expensive service, then I think this is the time to look at a heat pump. But if you are doing it solely to change energy sources, the payback time may be fairly long.

Honestly, right now, I can't think of too many people I'd advise to put in a new propane furnace. You'd have to be someplace with sky high electric rates (which you're not), so if it's time to replace the system, I'd say heat pump all the way. And don't mess with propane backup either -- the only reason my friend did that is because he had the furnace already and it was only 5 or 7 years old. For you all-electric would probably be better, and may qualify you for a better electric rate, too.

Certainly much appreciate your thoughts. We pay $.13 a KWH.

We've been having to replace different parts of our propane system recently and the workers were the ones to tell us that a heat pump would save us some money.

Garyg, we'll consider your grandson request. We only have one so far but the designation comes with strings attached. Our sons know that lots of things go wrong around this place and odd jobs are required. I think the travel time from Maryland to here to fix things might become onerous for you. Let us know.

Randy, 13 cents per kwh is pretty high - higher than usual for your area. If you are simply dividing your total bill by your usage to determine that, the result could be misleading because there are going to be monthly fees included that won't go up with higher usage. I'd suggest checking with your power provider, if you haven't done so yet, both about the per-kwh rate and the possibility of a lower all-electric or heat pump rate.

In your area, a common per-kwh rate, exclusive of fees that do not change with usage, would be about 7 to 9 cents, and at that rate you can save a lot with a heat pump. At 13 cents you can probably save money compared to propane, but the savings would be less impressive.

Ky114, I called the power co. to get the cost of the kwh as you suggested. Lots of ooing and ahing saying that it depends on the number of kwhs used, etc. etc. I pinned her down to a figure about $.09 as you surmised. She's to mail me a packet to explain all this saying that it was very confusing. To say the least. I don't expect I'd be able to figure it out anyway.

Thanks again for your input.

Randy:

I am going to surmise that you have fairly decent electric rates - less than 10 cents per kw-hr is decent.

With these good rates, you don't need the highest SEER/EER heat pump on the market. In my opinion, a 14 SEER/12 EER system offers the best combination of purchase price and true operating costs. Usually, 1 step above a builders grade 13 SEER makes a difference in quality, efficiency, and performance.

"Garyg, we'll consider your grandson request. We only have one so far but the designation comes with strings attached. Our sons know that lots of things go wrong around this place and odd jobs are required. I think the travel time from Maryland to here to fix things might become onerous for you. Let us know."

- I enjoy hard work, and I'll have no problem watching your sons do it, LOL. Remember, I applied for the position of Grandson. Those are the little tikes that you spoil, then thankfully give back to the parents at the end of the day.

Take care.

I agree with Garyg's post above - moderate efficiency is usually the most cost effective. Manufacturers have the highest efficiency ratings on their "latest and greatest" models, which carry premium prices that are out of proportion to the potential energy savings.

At 9 cents per kwh, and assuming reasonable efficiency levels, 100,000 BTU of delivered heat with a heat pump system (including occasional operation of auxiliary heat) is going to cost you about $1.29. With propane, at $2.89 a gallon, 100,000 BTU of delivered heat costs $3.50. And that $3.50 figure might actually be a little low, because it assumes a 90 percent efficient propane furnace, which you probably don't have, since it's 20 years old.

The bottom line, then, is that a heat pump would easily cut your heating costs in half, and with any luck cut them to a third of what they now are.

Cost for 1 million btus:

Propane at $2.89/gallon, 80% efficient furnace:
(1,000,000 btus / 91,330 btu per gallon)($2.89)/.8 =
$39.55 for 1 million btus.

Heat pump (at 30F outside, COP = 3) with electricity at 10 cents per kw-hr:
(1,000,000 / 3413)($.10)/3 =
$9.77 for one million btus.

The heat pump would cost over 400% less to operate than propane.

Note that the heat pump would require auxillary heat below the balance point of the home, around 32F or so. These additional costs are not included in the above calc.

Thanks you all. We feel really armed to the teeth to face the salesmen now. We'll keep in touch when we have some real estimates.

Garyg, we are the new generation of old people. Our grandchildren will have to work. No more mister nice guys.

Sears came yesterday and the guys seemed to do a thorough casing of the place. They recommended the Kenmore R410A for $8227. These guys were pleasant and seemed very knowledgeable. We live in an extremely rural area and there are few choices in such an endeavor as this. We have dealt with Sears many times over the years and have always been satisfied. What are your thoughts?

With constant thanks....

Randy

I would not purchase a hammer from Sears much less HVAC from them or another big box store. Sorry.

If you are interested in the lowest operating cost, go high eff heat pump with var speed air handler and backup aux heat strip. I would chuck the expensive propane all together.

I would suggest a 15 SEER and 9 HSPF eff rating minimum HP system. I prefer HPs that have electronic demand defrost over timed defrost that runs the defrost mode whether it is required or not. Electronic is more efficient.

I can suggest some brands if you like.

IMO

Could you provide a little more detail about what they're proposing to install, such as size, model #, etc. Are they keeping all existing ductwork, are there any plans to check for its adequacy/quality, did they check the adequacy of your electric service for changing to a new all-electric system? The R410A probably refers to the refrigerant the heat pump is going to use.

Also, how did they arrive at the proper sizing for your system? What I'd want to hear from them on this is an explanation, and the result of a Manual J calculation can be part of that, but it's not a panacea: Those results are only as good as the data that's put in, and on existing construction, especially an older home, it's VERY hard to know just what data to put in. If you read the information about Manual J, they tell you that. But "ballparking" a size based on square footage is not good, either, which is why they should explain to you how they arrived at a size.

Having people who are pleasant and knowledgeable is a big thing - this is who you will be dealing with if you have a problem.

From what I can find in System Information it's a Kenmore Split System, 30,000 Cooling BTU, KW 10 and R-410A (whatever that means). The duct system was looked at and seems fine. It is located in the house between the basement and first floor. Nothing in the attic. They checked electric system and we have plenty of power for the new installation. They checked the number of registers upstairs and downstairs and plan to enlarge the return near the thermostat on the upper floor. I think the model number is FVM4X3600. We are getting other estimates too. I'll ask more closely about how they determined the size needed for our house.
After your criticism of Sears, tigerdunes, I do remember that we've had problems with their service department when our refrigerator died. Had to wait a week for a service man! As I've said before though, we like in a very small community and our options are few.

With Sears, the refrigerator service and HVAC install are probably two separate companies. At least in my area, Sears subcontracts this type of installation work, which can be good or bad depending on whom you get actually doing the work. You do have the advantage of a big company that's going to be around if you have a problem. As far as the above comment about not buying a hammer from Sears, I am not sure why not, as most of their tools are of good quality; my toolbox is filled with Craftsman tools, some 50 years old and older. But the bottom line in your situation is it's the local people you're going to be dealing with, and that's what makes the most difference.

R410A is a new refrigerant that takes the place of R-22, which is the refrigerant that has been traditionally used in home heat pumps and air conditioners.

Just on the surface of it, 30,000 BTU cooling (2 1/2 tons) sounds a little small. Is that the size of your current a/c?

"I think the model number is FVM4X3600..."
- That is the model# of the air handler (inside unit). Need model# of outside unit.

"From what I can find in System Information it's a Kenmore Split System, 30,000 Cooling BTU, KW 10 and R-410A"
- No heat pump? The "10 KW" are the 10 kilowatt back-up electric strips in the air handler. Are they proposing straight a/c with electric strips as your only source of heat? I hope not for your sake.

Sears re-brands Carrier equipment as Kenmore.

Randy

I'll admit a bias against Sears.

This appears to be a Carrier system they are quoting.
What is outside condenser model?

2 1/2 ton sounds light-was a load calculation performed?
Is air handler a var speed model? Any ductwork modifications required?

Price wise, I think you can do better.

IMO

Outside unit is C/H4H330 and there is a digital programable thermostat. I do not know the BTUs of our present system. Our house is built into the side of a hill. The downstairs area has no windows in the back only on the front and one on the northeast and southwest side. The front windows downstairs have a deck above so little sunlight is received. I am sure they took this into consideration.

A C/H4H330 condenser matched with a FVM4X36 air handler is a Kenmore 13 R410 heat pump with the following:

30,000 btu cooling (a full 2.5 tons), 11.5 EER, 14.5 SEER, 30,000 btu heating at 47F outside, 8.5 HSPF. ARI# 1327329.

Those are good performance numbers. Price of $8227 is very high.

Get more quotes.

Thanks again. You guys deserve to be paid for all your great information. We're getting more quotes this week.

A few things to think about when you get some other quotes:

-Check the BTU rating of your current furnace and think about how much it runs on the coldest days of the year. You said night temperatures can be in the teens, so I'm thinking that your current furnace is probably 70,000 or 80,000 BTU at least, and what you're seeing in the proposal you have is 34,000 BTU (10 kw) maximum heating capability on the coldest day of the year. That seems a little small for your square footage, but that's just a question to ask. If the people in your area who have seen your house (who obviously know far more than I do about what you are working with here) are willing to guarantee that 10 kw will keep you warm on the coldest days, okay. Also, if your current furnace only runs intermittently (say, 50 or 60 percent of the time) on the coldest days, that indicates excess capacity and gives you some evidence that you could, in fact, do all right with lower heating capacity.
-Smallish sizing of a cooling-only system in your house probably makes sense given what you have said about its location and construction, but on a heat pump I'd be more careful to get one that's big enough because too-small capacity equals more use of auxiliary heat and higher operating costs. Again, just something to bring up with the people you talk to.

Will do.

He needs 15kw aux strips instead of the 10 kw that is proposed. This will provide enough aux heat as well as warm air from the registers when the heat pump goes into defrost.

Don't forget that he gets the heat pump btus plus the aux strips on the coldest days (approx 17,000 btu at 17F for heat pump + 34,130 from 10 kw aux btus = 51,130 btu total). With 15kw aux, he gets 68,195 btu total at 17F outside.

If the ductwork can support a 3 ton heat pump, I would go for 3 tons instead of 2 1/2 tons. Not sure how Sears came up with 2 1/2 tons without a load calc.

Randy

I am not certain I agree with Gary's calculations. But assuming he is correct, I would request two heat strip modules, a 10KW and a 5KW and have them staged based on load demand. I would ask dealer to calculate the BTUs required to satisfy your inside comfort temperature at the average low winter temperature for your area.

68KBTUs for 17 degree outside temp seems very high.

IMO

Garyg, yes, I did neglect to add the contribution of heat from the heat pump at low temperatures; I did not know how significant it would be at very low temperatures. Thanks for pointing that out.

OK, now you got to level with me. We have another guy coming for an estimate tomorrow. What are he most important things I need to note for him. I'm getting loster than I was heretofore, if that is possible! Grazie.

Well, to begin with, when he arrives, I would just let him take a look at your house and develop his estimate. If you mention too many concerns or questions up front, it may bias him to give you what he thinks you want rather than what his professional judgment suggests. You probably already know this, but I would also not discuss the first estimate with him, especially the pricing. Talking about other prices quoted can encourage some to quote you a price that just barely beats that of another estimate.

I think your most important concerns with this and other estimates is to compare the size of equipment suggested and the price. You may not have to say anything -- I think it's a good bet that your second contractor may suggest using equipment that's a little larger, because the first company's suggestion for a 30,000 BTU (2 1/2 ton) heat pump sounds a little small to us on here. For instance, he may call for a 36,000 BTU (3 ton) heat pump and 15 kw of auxiliary heat. Regardless of what size he suggests, ask how he determined it. If the second person suggests sizing the same as the first, I would then mention that you are concerned that you're getting equipment that's not large enough.

I would also hope that your second price would be lower than the first. Just from what you have described, the first price sounds high.

Randy

1.start off with requesting a Man J heat/cool load calculation for correctly sizing new HVAC equipment. Get this in writing. It should take a couple of hours to properly perform.

2.request a ductwork evaluation-overall condition, insulation properties, sizing of both supplies, returns, leakages, etc. If you have any hot/cold spots in your home, then this should be addressed.

3.request that model numbers for both outside and inside units be placed on quote including the type of stat they recommend.

there are three parts to a successful new system;
good equipment, good ductwork system, a good installation

IMO

Tigerdunes' suggestion to have them perform a Manual J calculation is, of course, good. That's the standard. I might add just one comment about that, though: On older, existing construction, I have seen considerably different results come out of those calculations. In one case I know of personally, a new furnace was installed in an older home based on a Manual J, and the house now won't get above 60 degrees on a cold day without supplemental heat. Obviously that's not the fault of the calculation. It was done wrong. But that's what sometimes happens -- it's garbage in, garbage out.

So, just speaking for myself, I would be comfortable with their best estimate of the sizing AT THIS POINT. Then, once you pick a contractor, you can have them do a Manual J if you want when they're more willing to take time to do it right, since they know they're getting the work.

That's just my opinion, one other way of approaching it.

"I am not certain I agree with Gary's calculations."
- Why. Do your numbers differ? 3,413 btu per kw x 15 kw = 51,195 btu for the 15 kw electric strips.

"But assuming he is correct, I would request two heat strip modules, a 10KW and a 5KW and have them staged based on load demand."
- I believe that 15kw heater kits come pre-wired for staging, at least it did with my Goodman 15kw kit. The thermostat has to be able to stage the strips.

"68KBTUs for 17 degree outside temp seems very high".
- Why? The strips contribute the majority of the btus and don't care about the outdoor temp. Do the math.

Since BTU = CFM x 1.08 x Delta T:
Delta T = 68,000 / (1200 x 1.08)
Delta T = 52 degres.
So if its 68 degrees indoors, he gets 68 + 52 = 120F from heat pump plus 15 kw aux strips.
If his heat pump dies and he is on 15 kw aux only:
Delta T = 51,195 / (1200 x 1.08) = 39 degrees.
So if its 68 degrees indoors, he gets 68 + 39 = 107F from the 15kw strips.

Gary, I can't speak for Tigerdunes, but the part of your calculation that I was curious about was how you determine the heat output of a heat pump at 17 F. I once read that a heat pump will always be, at the minimum, a little better than resistance heat, because you have the waste heat of the compressor, plus whatever little heat can still be extracted from the outside air at a low temperature. Given that, your 17,000 BTU estimate sounds pretty close, because a 3 ton heat pump probably draws around 3 kw, which is a little over 10,000 BTU in itself.

As far as the resistance heat, I always start with the admittedly rough but surprisingly useful rule of 10 watts per square foot. This probably gives you a little extra capacity on a super tight house, and it can be less than sufficient for a very loose house. But with electric heat there is no loss of efficiency for excess capacity, so having a little extra is not a problem. That's why I tend to think 15 kw is safer in the original poster's 1800 s.f. house, especially since the aux heat could have to carry the load if the heat pump ever stops working. If it's too much, so what? It's only going to run as much as needed, so it won't cost any extra to have more wattage.

"..I was curious about was how you determine the heat output of a heat pump at 17 F."
- American Refrigeration Institute: ARI# 1327329 for the Kenmore match-up previously posted:
30,000 btu heating at 47F, 20,000 btu heating at 17F. The 17,000 was a guess without looking up the actual unit info.

I agree that 15kw strips are needed. I also think that the 2.5 ton heat pump is undersized. Hard to tell from cybersize, but I think that the proposal is undersized and overpriced.

Take care.

Here is a link that might be useful: ARI Directory

The estimator was here this am. We found that the Heil propane furnace is 100,000 BTUs with an expected efficiency of 90%. It was probably put in 1989.
We told him that we had replaced the fan and the heat exchanger(?) in the last few years and he thinks it remains useable as part of a hybrid system with an outside heat pump. He did all his measurements and took the work back to his office. He's going to get us an estimate of a full new system and the hybrid.
What do you think of this option? Continually grateful....

This may not be a bad option. At your current propane price, an all-electric system would be cheaper to run, but you have to look at operating cost savings in the context of how much you have to spend to get it: Using the same furnace and air handler that you now have should save you a significant amount of money upfront. If his estimate for an all-electric system is $1,500 higher than the dual-fuel (hybrid), it would probably take several years to save that back in energy costs.

The dual-fuel system is probably going to net you 80 percent of the savings that an all-electric system would.

I agree that this is an option worth considering. The indoor coil MUST BE MATCHED WITH THE HEAT PUMP. Post the model number of the coil as well as the model number of the heat pump when you get the quote.

Since you will be using the current blower motor, you will be limited to SEER efficiency, and won't get much over 13 SEER with a new heat pump, regardless of the SEER rating of the outdoor unit.

Did he say anything about 2 1/2 tons or 3 tons?

If your house is fairly well-insulated and the heat pump is properly sized, you may be able to run the heat pump into the mid-20's outside temps before you start consuming expensive propane. If not well-insulated, the propane furnace might be needed in the mid-30's.

Best to you.

You seem to think that a hybrid system including our current furnace is not such a bad idea. I like the idea of not wasting a useable furnace if it is suitable. I got an estimate on a Carrier 'Performance' heat pump #25HPA530 with a 3 ton evaporator coil #CNPVP3621ACA. Installed this would come to $4,415. How does this look?

A full new system 'best' quality would be $8485 less a $1000 rebate. This is a local contractor here for years with good service according to friends though it is considered on the 'high' side for pricing.

Randy:

That condenser plus coil is an ARI-approved Performance 15 Puron heat pump. ARI#903869. The Performance is Carriers mid-grade product.

Numbers:
29,000 btu cooling, 12 EER, 14 SEER, 30,800 btu heating at 47F, 8.2 SSPF, 17,800 btu heating at 17F.

Those are decent numbers considering you are using an existing furnace. 12 EER is good for low operating costs in cooling mode.

These ratings include the use of a Time Delay Relay which allows the heat pump to run for a few seconds before the indoor fan comes on, and allows the indoor fan to run for a minute after the condenser shuts off. The contractor can install a TDR for you in the air handler.

I like the fact that you get a little more than a full 2.5 tons of heating btus at 47F.

How did he come up with the 2.5 tonnage number?

Ask him to quote a Performance 13 and Performance 14. See if there's a big difference in pricing. I'll see if there's a big difference in efficiencies. Need model numbers of coils to provide info.

Best to you.

garyg, waiting on the numbers you suggested we get. Will forward when received. Thanks again.

The quote below was received from the estimator within a half hour of sending the email. Amazing for this part of the world. His family has been in business here since the mid 70's. Well liked.

"The existing system was 2.5 ton and the load calculation I ran confirmed
that that should be an adequate size for the A/C. So, for a single speed
heat pump application that seemed the best way to go to me. Has the current
system been adequate in the A/C cycle?" (AC works fine for us.)

"The Performance 14 efficiency rating is 13.5 SEER/8.3 HSPF and the
Performance 13 is 13.0 SEER and 8.4HSPF. I will have to contact Carrier to
get pricing on these units as they are not normal stock items and are not in
our price books. Will e-mail it to you when I receive a quote back from
Carrier."

OK. I still would like the model numbers of the condensers and coils for the 13 and 14. This way I can verify that it is an ARI rated match and check the btus and efficiency numbers against the 15.

I think it's good for you to check out all 3 SEER units since you are thinking about keeping the propane furnace. Maybe one is a better value than the others.

FYI: the Performance Series has a 10 year compressor warranty but only 5 years for other parts. I'd like to see them bump the parts warranty up to 10 years for you. Labor warranty is typically 1 to 2 years. A 10 year parts and labor warranty would give you additional peace of mind.

Take care.

We've decided on the hybrid system described above and copied below quoted from garyg on 2/28/08

"That condenser plus coil is an ARI-approved Performance 15 Puron heat pump. ARI#903869. The Performance is Carriers mid-grade product.

"Numbers:
29,000 btu cooling, 12 EER, 14 SEER, 30,800 btu heating at 47F, 8.2 SSPF, 17,800 btu heating at 17F.

"Those are decent numbers considering you are using an existing furnace. 12 EER is good for low operating costs in cooling mode."

We received only one additional estimate which was way higher than the original Sears'. Believe it or not living in a very rural area limits one's choices. Some came to the house and never returned an estimate. We are concerned with service and feel this dealer has the best reputation in the area and certainly showed responsibility so that we'll get decent service too.

Thanks heaps for all your help. You provide a great service for us neophytes.
.

randy

I don't question your decision only the size of 2 1/2 ton vs a 3 ton HP. I hope someone did a load calculation for you and that you have reviewed it. The Performance 15 is a good choice although the 8.2 HSPF heating eff is rather poor. But if and when you decide to replace the propane furnace, you will have a chance to add a var speed air handler which I think is the best choice against the outrageous operating cost of propane. Just get a load calculation and verify that 2.5 ton is correct! You will not regret it.

IMO

"Thanks heaps for all your help. You provide a great service for us neophytes."

- Randy: Do I get the title of "grandchild emeritus"?

Best to you.

The title fits as long as there is no financial remuneration expected!
Again, thanks.

OK - thanx. Let us know how it works out for you.

Good luck.

We had the Carrier heat pump put in and all seems to be going well. Our first electric bill, post installation, was not remarkably different from normal thankfully.

I do have another question. We've heard that placing the heat pump in a shaded area would save on electric. Understandable. We had little leeway in placing our unit but wonder if erecting a shade cloth structure above it would benefit us or would it interfere with its effectiveness. The unit is in full sun for the hottest part of the afternoon.

Thanks as usual.

Randy:

Comparing your monthly utility costs between 2 years is difficult because of changes in the outdoor temperatures. You can't go by average temps, you have to get months with similar "cooling degree days" or "heating degree days" for a good comparison.

I would not do anything to your condenser that blocks or hinders air flow. My condenser is out in the sun all day - no big deal. It's how long the sun beats on the house that raises the cooling load. Anything you can do to shade the house in the summer is a plus. Adding attic insulation, caulking, upgrading windows, adding storm doors - these all reduce the cooling load on the house and will pay for themselves over time with today's high energy costs.

Take care.

Thanks. I wonder why people make such erroneous statements.