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jhzr2

Why is split ductless so expensive when installed?

JHZR2
June 8, 2012

Hi,

Long time reader, first post. I have a question, and it seems like some solid answers for other situations have been discussed before.

I live in an old baloon frame wood home, built in the 1930s, with radiator heat. Easy to run stuff through the walls, go up multi-levels through the walls, etc.

We dont have central air, and liked the control of a split system, so tried to get some quotes.

I know the retail and wholesale pricing for the equipment. For example, one unit we were considering, just a single split unit (1:1), was $1500 wholesale, $2200 retail.

The installed cost for this unit is being quoted at $4500. I can certainly appreciate that the burdened cost of labor is around $100/hr. I can appreciate that everyone wants to make a profit. But $2500 or so for all this?

So my question really is, how tough is it to install these things that the costs to install are so high? I see it as the fact that $2500 in installation is like 25 man-hours at $100 per hr burdened rate. Thats three guys for a day.

I was under the impression that the ductless is cheaper/easier to install than a ducted system, so the install is straightforward and managable.

So where is the cost for doing this coming from?

It is less than 25' of tubing run from the outdoor to indoor unit. It is a first floor install on an outer wall. Nothing exotic.

A 4:1 that I asked to be quoted came similarly. Roughly $15k for an installed 4:1 system with 4 indoor units, where the equipment cost is around $5k complete. So $10k to install some pipes and wires?

What gives? Im all for paying well to get a good job done. But this is a pretty straightforward install. Why are ductless installs so pricey?

Thanks!

Comments (247)

  • jkezza

    I'd love to see all these people complaining about 'ridiculous costs' try run a company without charging business overhead.

  • sktn77a

    I don't think anybody is complaining about legitimate "business overhead" (indirect costs) which traditionally runs about 25% to 40% of direct costs (labor and equipment).

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  • jkezza

    ..Business costs. Costs in addition to the product itself.

  • malba2366

    A reasonable price to a HVAC contractor for Labor only to install a mini split is $1000-1200. This should account for a reasonable labor rate (10man hours @75/hr) and $250-450 for business overhead, use of tools etc. The materials needed for install including linsets, connecting wires, line hide, mounting brackets etc should come in around $400. The electrical hookup should come in $300-$500. The unit itself for a single head unit (I am using 12000 BTU highest end Mitsubishi as an example ) is $1760. The total install cost should be $3460 $3860. There is no reason a mini split should cost $7-8000 installed. The way a typical HVAC contractor estimates a job is to add up all the materials and double the cost. Find a small local HVAC guy who will do a labor only install and you will save a ton of money,


  • HU-519700956

    Malba is very correct. If you find a small local HVAC guy you will save a ton of money. Before I had an actual company, when I used to do installs on weekends, I would factor in somewhere around $600 - 900 for my labor for mini splits depending on the install environment / any potential hindrances etc. This was fine for because I would make almost my whole paycheck for 40 hours in one extra day. One of the biggest things to consider however is accountability. The last few weeks I was dealing with a client of mine who owns 175 investment properties. I started doing work for him in The beginning of August and from then until last week had done close to 30 service calls. One of those calls was on a 4 year Trane old AC system. The compressor had burnt up. I could tell from the look of the refrigeration lines and size that they were WAY older than 4 years which means they were reused from an R-22 system which if not properly flushed and vacuumed will cause remnants to turn to acid in your system. The area was easily accessible to replace them so the fact they weren't meant someone was shortcutting. Also the condensing unit had been set on to 4x4s fashioned in to a box shape as a pad. There was no filter dryer inside or outside and the unit was wildly unlevel. Either way the customer had found some local guy to do the install fur much cheaper and there was noone that could be held accountable for it. Same customer just had some guys he found for cheap do what was supposed to be a start up and tie in for a 4:1 and a 2:1 at another of their rental properties. This was in september. They called me a couple weeks ago to fix them already. When I got out there the first thing i noticed was that the linesets were braised in which is highly improper for these systems. When we checked our pressures everything was off and when we tried to add charge the lines began to freeze and the pressures wouldnt change, meaning that when they braised the lines, they got particles in the system that jammed it up. Only way to be sure that there will not be an issue again is to replace the whole thing. Once again, noone to hold accountable. Nowadays due to my overhead and what I pay my employees to make sure I keep people who will want to continuously do quality work, my lower budget mini prices are mid to high 3's, and nicer sytems are in the 4's. But noone has ever said that anyone in my company has done a poor job or that a system failed due to installer error and you better believe that because we have a reputation that directly affects our livelihood that if something like that ever were to actually happen, we would be accountable and make sure the situation was resolved.

  • Ryeguy

    I live in New England. I just got a quote of $48,000 on a Mitsubishi system for a 2500 sqft 2-story colonial from one of only 3 companies here locally. Even if I saved $200 per mos in heating/cooling costs, it would take me 20 years just to break even on the system cost!

  • PRO
    ECOGREEN DUCTLESS LLC

    I own and operate EcoGreen Ductless LLC. in the Pacific Northwest. We specialize in ONLY designing, selling, & installing Ductless Mini-Splits.

    Let me clarify a few things here because as I read all of these post I am shocked about the ductless illiteracy I am finding here on this thread.

    First I will educate you all on some history;

    Until 2018 R410a (the refrigerant in DHP systems) was a restricted refrigerant via the Montreal Protocol for environmental reasons and only available to those who had a EPA 608 license which is secured by taking a rather lengthy test with a solid grasp of thermal dynamics and a good understanding of the cause and effect of restricted refrigerants on the environment.

    Because of this law no one but a licenced HVAC installer could buy a DHP system charged with refrigerant Prior to 2018. All of us had to go to HVAC school and be certified to install DHP systems. Those who have not are simply not capable nor equiped with the proper tools, knoledge, or skills to install them properly. Contrary to popular belief niether general contractors nor DIY home owners are even remotely capable of installing a DHP mini-split systems properly.

    In 2018 Scott Pruitt head of the EPA (until they fired him) decided to circumvent the long standing Montreal Protocol laws (total Idiot) and allowed the sale of charged Mini-Split systems on line. This has been the worst idea ever for my industry. Now any Tom, Dick, Sally, or Harry can buy a charged system at wholesale prices on line and have it shipped to them!? REALLY?

    Most home owners & DIY'ers have NO idea the idiosyncrasies that go into the PROPER installation of DHP mini-splits so they tend to make uneducated conclusions about the mark up we charge (20% to 33% Construction Industry Average Standard FOR ANY THING) and why we charge $95 to $125 an hour to install them. The posts in this thread prove that without a doubt!.

    Heres how a DHP Mini-split system is PROPERLY installed;

    1). It must be designed by a certifed master installer in order to fit the operating parameters and limitations of the specific equipment. This takes a trip to the site alot of thinking and understanding of the systems,...then back to the office to spend several hours with that site info to design several options at different price points for the client.

    2). Once a design is accepted generally a 50% deposit is required to order equipment.

    3). When said equipment arrives the Certified Master Installer comes to the site and carefully prepares to mount the inside and outside units. There is alot to this that non of you but the other techs who posted here would understand.

    4). Then line set hide is installed being careful and conscious of aesthetics.

    5). Then refrigerant line sets are run inside the line hide from interior units to exterior units and preped for connection by making only super skilled perfect flairs on the ends of the high pressure copper line sets which must be checked for accuracy with a flair gauge with micronic tolerances. This is hard for anyone to achieve even journeyman installers.

    6). Then each flaired end is carefully connected to its proper port and torqued with a torque wrench to exact specs.

    7). Then a tank of dry nitrogen and HVAC gauges are attached to the service ports on the outdoor compressor and pressure is applied in three separate stages,...

    A). First stage add 150bls dry nitrogen to the system and hold for 10 minutes or more carefully

    watching to see if the pressure holds exactly.

    B). Second stage bumps the pressure up to 300lbs. and hold for an hour or more untill you are

    sure there are ABSOLUTELY no leaks.

    C). Third stage bumps the pressure up to 500lbs which is supposed to be held for 24 hours!

    D). The next day the installer comes back to the site and checks the gauges to make sure they

    read exactly 500lbs still. If the pressure is at 500 lbs. we go to step #8

    if not,... liquid soap is sprayed on all flair connections until the leak is located and tightened,

    re-flaired or repaired.

    8). Next the vacuuming out of the line sets to remove all impurities begins. This process begins by releasing out the 500lbs of dry nitrogen and attaching a HVAC vacuum unit to the service ports. The vacuuming out of the line sets is also in three stages or what is called a "Triple Evac""

    A). First stage; Using a DHP Vacuum and a digital micron gauge vacuum out the line sets from

    approx 9000 (the start of micron gauges reading) to 3000 microns & stop vacuuming. Then

    disconnect the Micron gauge and re-attach the dry nitrogen tank and add 10 to 20 lbs of

    dry nitrogen and hold for 10 minutes...

    B). Second stage; Release the 20 lbs of dry nitrogen and re-attach the micron gaugege to the

    system,... commence vacuuming out the line sets again and this time bring the micron

    gauge down to 1000 microns. Stop vacuume again and add/purge the line sets with

    another 20 lbs of dry nitrogen and hold for 10 minutes.

    C). Third stage; Release the 20 lbs of dry nitrogen and commence vacuuming again this time

    dropping the micron gauge down to about 700 microns & stop vacuum ,... again follwing

    the same proceedure as above add 20 lbs of DN and hold for 10 minutes.

    D). Finally,... commence the final vacuume of line sets and pull a vacuume all the way down to

    below 500 microns and hold for at least a 1/2 hour (I pull my vacummes all the way down

    below 200 microns for OCD perfection) If you cant pull a vacumme down below 500

    microns and hold it there you have a leak in the system!

    If all this is done and passes all testing procedure you are now ready to release the systems precharge of R1410a and turn on the power and test run the system.

    If you have not done all of these steps you have failed to follow industry standard best practice protocol for installing a ductless mini-split system.

    Ok,... with all that said, Let me ask you all this,...

    Why do Doctors make so much?,... how about you do your own surgery on yourself and see how it goes?,... why do attorneys make so much,... try representing yourself in court and see how it goes?

    I've been a HIGH QUALITY General Contractor for 45 years now and know a lot about all trades. It boggles my mind how many people think they are paying too much for skilled tradesman services and bitch about it,... so then they try and do it themselves or hire a cheap hack and completely butcher the project. The sad part of that senario is because they don't know what they are doing ,... half of them think they did an alright job and saved a bunch of $$$? Then after a while it fails and they have to call a skilled contractor in that trade to come and fix it?

    I've got news for you,... most of us don't and won't come and fix it after you screwed it up.

    This is why most honorable DHP mini-split installers wont touch a system you bought on line!,... only the hacks will do it. Oh yeah,... did I mention there is NO WARRANTY on a system bought on line unless you have a qualified certified installer do it and they are the ones who must file for your warranty and be qualified to do so or you just bought a $5000 piece of junk!

    I hope this enlightens you all to why a super basic "one to one" system costs starts at approx. $5000 and can go all the way up to 60K or more on commercial installations.

    If you have further questions or arguments with my position,...I am happy to enlighten you :)

    Andrew Ross MacKenzie

    Owner / Operator of EcoGreen Ductless LLC.

    andy@ecogreenductless.com

  • Johnny Silver

    I do not see what all the fuss is I BOUGHT a pioneer on ebay 12000 btu $683.00 delivered, install it myself in my man cave. It is quiet works very good, not hard to install, got section 608 license, you can get one on the internet. Done a little HVAC work over the last 40 years if you know how to wire and put copper pipe together you can install one, they got them cheaper than that, $500.00 on fleabay I can see paying $683.00 per room is not a great cost and well worth the investment. Go to you tube watch DIY videos they are a great help.

  • Johnny Silver

    You ought to go to amazon, find the book CANCER Cause, Cure and Cover-up by Ron Gdanski , doctors have a big money making scheme, I have represented myself in court I did not lose but the other party did win either, that was on a breach of contract.

  • HU-56948319

    Re: Johnny Silver - "I don't see what all the fuss is about" ,...

    Hi Johnny,... Thank you for your input :)

    Sure,... all brands will seem to work fine temporarily right out of the box even if the landscaper put it in,...However in all fairness...Lets compare apples to apples here.

    The difference in cost is in the quality of the manufaturer brand & longevity of the systems performance. The systems I put in will last & perform at a high level for 15 to 20 years.

    I bet you will get 3 maybe 5 out of the Pioneer before it fails to work properly,... mabey much less. I see this sernario play out all the time.


    1). We ONLY sell the top three brands DAIKIN - Fujitsu - Mitsubishi... No offense intended Johnny

    but comparing a Pioneer to any of those is like comparing a Pinto to a Porsche! You get what you pay for.,... of course they dont cost the same.


    2). Again,... If you did not follow the installation protocol I specifed above it will fail way before its time regardless. The installation manual that comes in the box with the product is NOT the recommended procedure(s) by professionals,... you might say its like the owners manual you get in the glove box when you purchase a new car. Your auto mechanic doesn't use that to do service on your car,... He has a 600 page Chiltons.


    Look,...I'm all for any DYI'er trying to save a buck, buying a cheap model & doing it themselves,... I wish you all good luck if you choose to do that,.. I mean,.. hey I'm Scottish,... so I get it!


    However,... I believe the point of topic here is why the cost is so different from that senario to when you hire a professional who installs a top of the line system,... I believe I have explained that unequivocally. :-)




  • HU-56948319

    P.S,... You Tube videos are hit & miss,... yes sometimes they can be helpful however,... I have not seen one you tube video on Ductless Mini-Split installation where they actually did it the fully proper way. The problem with these videos is there are so many people who are not certified to install Ductless systems around the world sharing how to do it. Many of the skills become diluted after being handed down over and over until the process you see on the video is missing key elements of the process.

    I have personally called out many of the You Tube suposed HVAC ductless techs on their videos to tell them they missed some VERY important procedures.

    OK,...Maybe I am OCD,... but I can assure you that "awe,.. its good enough" will never come out of my mouth :)

    My Dad always said to me,... " If you don't have the time to do it right the first time, what makes you think you have the time to come back and fix it"?

  • Johnny Silver

    Simply put, after working on ac systems for 40 years, I do not agree with you,

  • Johnny Silver

    Dakin 12000btu unit mini split, ebay $1200 bucks , Fujitsu $1259 bucks, Mitsubishi $1259, the pioneer is more like a Nissan Altima , it gets me from point A to B just like a Lexus in comfort, just half price.

  • HU-56948319

    Ok Johnny,...

    Again ,... I appreciate and encourage your input so I can help you learn. Opposing opinions don't bother me,.. I see it as an opportunity ,...

    Saying "I don't agree with you because of 40 years of work on ac systems" is an "opinion" without any substantiating data,... not to mention in the last 40 years the industry equipment, refrigerants, and methods of installation has changed drastically. I dont know what your background is but unless you have any CURRENT training in Ductless Mini-Splits,...your experience of 40 years of working in A/C in my opinion may be mute & obsolete.

    Why dont you elaborate and support you position with facts and checkable information so the rest of us can learn from your 40 years of AC knowledge :)

    Thank you Johnny :)

  • HU-56948319

    Ok,... good Johnny,... some data,... now,... lets talk... series models,... you quoted prices on three different manufactureres lines of 12000 BTU units.

    In the DAIKIN line alone there are four different series of 12,000 BTU systems at different price points ranging from $685 wholesale in the worthless DAMA DASS series all the way up to $1219 wholesale for the top of the line LV series,... I add about 28% to those wholesale cost when I sell to the public,... average construction industry mark up is well above that.

    Again,... Apples to Apples :)

  • HU-56948319

    BTW,....these are all basic wall mount versions I'm assuming we are talking about,...

    If you include all the 12,000 BTU systems in the DAKIN line alone; floor mount, concealed slim duct, Vista Flat Ceiling Panel, concealed Medium Static FDMQ, Emura, ...

    there are 8 different styles of 12,000 BTU systems and price points.

  • Johnny Silver

    your experience of 40 years of working in A/C in my opinion may be mute & obsolete. That's just your opinion. HU-56948319

  • malba2366

    It takes 6 hours to install a ductless system (I have had 3 installed in my home) assuming there is easy access to run lines etc. A reasonable labor/markup above materials to install is $1000-$1500 not including electric, anything more than that is excessive. I have said it and will say it again...find a small HVAC company where the owner is doing the work and offer them that amount plus materials to install a mini split. Purchase the unit yourself (go with Mitsubishi/Fujutsu)...both will honor the warranty as long as the unit is installed by a qualified contractor. Do not call one of the big companies with fancy marketing/websites/salespeople and an owner who doesn't work in the field unless you want to spend $8k-10K on a ductless unit.


    As an example on what I spent..on a recent MZ-FH09NA (top of the line Mitsubishi) wall mounted unit:

    1. Minisplit unit, lineset, mounting bracket, connecting wire, wall sleeve, line hide: $1850

    2. Electrical connection - done by licensed electrician: $500

    3. Labor for HVAC install - done by licensed HVAC contractor: $1200

    Total: $3550


    The big HVAC companies quoted be between $7500 and $9000 for the same unit...and the installers/electrician they use are likely less qualified than the people I used. If you know what you want and can source materials yourself you can save a huge amount of money that would otherwise go to sales commissions, marketing and lining the owners pocket.

  • Elmer J Fudd

    "your experience of 40 years of working in A/C in my opinion may be mute & obsolete."

    I think you may mean moot, not mute.

  • HU-56948319

    Malba2366 - 1). "It takes 6 hours to install a ductless system" & 2). "don't call one of the big companies etc"

    1). With all due repect Malba you are incorrect,... Please refer to my previous piece about proper installation. I didn't write this,... its out of the manual to get certified!. If you like a will post a PDF supporting what I have said showing proper protocol for installing a Ductless Mini-Split from Thermal Supply College for certification. As a home owner,... how can you possibly know more than a hard working small business owner who specializes in ductless Mini-Splits and does his own work and is a certifed master installer? Really,... good luck with that one dear.

    Go Back and read my post on Proper Installation please. I'm sorry you had 3 units installed improperly in your house. That is sad :(

    2). Malba ,... wrong again,... I am a small family owned ductless company that I own and operate... Not a big company with a fancy web site? I have done all my own advertising, created my own web site on wordpress, I answer the phone, I show up to do the estimate, I install the job, I clean up the site,... my wife does the accounting and bill out and I do any service,... There is no one else dear but me and my wife,... we two are all of it! & we are the most reasonably priced Ductless Co in town that does it by the book.

    All of you on this post,...This is what you get when you give arm chair ductless scholars a podium.

    PS,... Elmer Fudd,... you are corect sir,... Forgive my lack of spell check,...semantics and content are not effected,... only grammar :)

    Thank you Elmer Fudd head of the Houzz grammar police :)

    Now Elmer ,... got anything relevant about the topic? LOL :)

  • HU-56948319

    P.S -Johnny,... your right,... that is just my opinion ,...

    Thats the first thing you have been correct about so far.

    Your on a roll bro!

    BRING IT!

  • Elmer J Fudd

    Sure - the thread is 7 years old. Most home owners care about the cost of acquisition of equipment that will provide comfort in their homes and to a lesser extent, hope the equipment chosen is prudent to provide an affordable cost of operation compared to alternatives. They also hope that the people they hire are fair and doing them right. It isn't always the case that they do. Beyond that, your business is your business.

    For many people, especially those replacing end of life existing equipment, sticking with conventional split systems is often the better and more affordable choice.

  • HU-56948319

    Awesome. Thank you Elmer J Fudd. That is relevant.

  • Johnny Silver

    I said that was your opinion not mine put you reading glasses on, that is your PINK GLASSES BHA<BHA<BHA you ain't got to be a rocket scientist to work on A/C's go look in the mirror. Maybe you HONEST with your prices or maybe your a CROOK.

  • klem1

    After all the opinions and time spent on the question "Why is split ductless so expensive",the answer is as allusive now as when first asked. I have a new question. Why do blowhards cruise the net creating accounts just to bring old threads back from the grave?

  • malba2366

    @hu569... I do not profess to know more than you. I am speaking from experience. I had 3 units installed, one of which has been running 24-7 for 3 years now with downtime only for cleaning. Mini splits were designed for quick installs in the field, there are millions of these things installed all over the world and they work just fine without some elaborate 2 day installation period. The vacuuming of the lines and charging process for a mini split is not significantly different than installing a regular split system...HVAC contractors in the USA have turned mini splits into some sort of mystical product so they can charge sky high prices for the install labor.

  • bry911

    When I was in college I took a class on lean manufacturing. We had to write a 20 page paper on a 30 second process. If you get detailed enough any process can look complicated.

    I do a limited amount of advising with municipal projects and the few times I have seen real billing fraud there was an incredibly detailed invoice justifying it. This is not to say that the incredibly detailed report presented above is just a justification for unreasonable fees, it may very well be an honest assessment. However, if I were out to justify unreasonable fees, that is how I would do it.

    I spent much of my career in the Middle East, where mini-splits are practically the only A/C people use. I had mini-splits for many years before people in America had a clue what they were. I have never seen them take days to install, but maybe I have never seen them installed correctly. However, given a choice between an adequately functioning, improperly installed mini-split for $4,000 or a superior functioning, perfectly installed mini-split for $9,000, I will take the $4,000 one every single time. If you want, I can back that up with some NPV calculations to prove my point.

  • creekgirl

    For a mini-split system in my tiny 450 square foot studio/"carriage" house I was quoted $4000 - 6000, not including another approx. $3500+ one outfit said I'd need to update electrical system to support it. Electric heat is expensive in use, too, so I'm not getting the whole mini-split thing.

  • klem1

    If you didn't find what you are looking for after reading this intire thread,I wouldn't expect any new prespective if I were you. "IF"you presently heat your house with resistant heating,you have 3 or 4 times as much electric service required for a MS. If and when emergency heat is required,you'll have exactly the same amount of electric service so I don't understand why electric must be updated.

  • armoured

    @klem1, don't most minisplits require higher voltage (i.e. 230v), meaning in USA many houses would require dedicated line and quite possibly some electric work to support that? Obviously depends how the (existing) baseboards are wired.

  • klem1

    No,MSs don't require HIGHER voltage than majority of homes in the USA have. ALL 230v equipment usually have dedicated line. I wouldn't call a line from breaker box to equipment "updating electrical system". A possible key to your concern armoured is whether home is presently heated by 120v space heaters or more conventional means such as elect furnace which would almost certainly be 230v. Even in a case where home is heated with 120v space heaters,90% of time 230v is available at breaker box.

  • armoured

    Thank you, klem. But if I understand correctly, a dedicated line would still need to be run? Speculating but I wonder if some installers are overcharging for this, or at least using this as an explanation. (I live in a place where 220v is standard)

  • klem1

    With the info or more accurately lack of information furnished,anything is possible.

  • bry911

    But if I understand correctly, a dedicated line would still need to be run? Speculating but I wonder if some installers are overcharging for this, or at least using this as an explanation. (I live in a place where 220v is standard)

    First, where do you live? I believe the entire U.S. public power supply is now upgraded to 240v @ 60Hz. Next, 220 vs. 230 vs. 240 means little to nothing, your power is very likely to be none of those three and the only way to know is to stick a voltage meter on your line.

    In the end, mini-splits will use less power than almost any comparable system, so you might legitimately have a $3,500 upgrade charge if you don't have room in your breaker box, but that charge will exist for every system. There are possibly specific scenarios in multi-family dwellings that might also increase the cost of electrical work, but those are aside from the cost of the mini-splits.

  • armoured

    @bry: Europe. And I should have said 230v, typo.

  • mike_home

    The standard in the US and Canada is a nominal voltage of 120V and 240V. There can be a voltage drop between the transformer and the outlet in the house.

  • klem1

    Does 240V have more smoke than 120V or is 220V smoke just darker?

  • Boomergal50

    Question to those with knowledge of splits: I have a 500 sq ft guest cottage heated with a pricey Rinnai propane heater and cooled with a 12K btu cheapo window AC. I'd like to get a nice mini split just for cooling. Our local dealer carries Fujitsu and says they heat and cool. Can anyone suggest a brand that would just cool? There are two 200 sq ft rooms linked by a five foot hall way, each room has a ceiling fan. The rest is bathroom, closet, small laundry. It's on a slab and humidity can be an issue in spring. Has Hardie concrete siding and steel roof. Located in coastal Virginia. I am hoping that a single unit will supply cool air for both rooms to save money? Thanks for advice!

  • HU-56948319

    Armoured and all others who posted on the Mini-Split voltage ,...

    Mini-splits run on basic 220 electrical.

    The data submittal sheets define this by saying this,...

    The line voltage should register from 208V to 230V ,... that window of variation is ok.

    Anything outside those parameters will cause the system to reject the power source and they will not function.

  • HU-56948319

    malba 2366- said,...

    1). "The vacuuming of the lines and charging process for a mini split is not significantly different than installing a regular mini-split system"

    Correction - This statement is false and makes no sense at all?

    2). "HVAC contractors in the USA have turned mini splits into some sort of mystical product so they can charge sky high prices for the install labor"

    Correction - This statement is also false and easy to prove so.

    3) . "Working just fine" huh?,...

    Correction - You wouldn't have the knowledge or tools to test it to see if it is working just fine?

    I get more calls to fix MS that were not installed right than I get call for new installs now a days because of people who believe what you do,... & I turn them all down. I dont need the money and I don't fix other peoples mistakes.


    Here are just a few of the pages from the DAIKIN University Manual on MS installation that verify 24hrs is what the AHRI, ASHRAE, and ALL MS Manufacturers recommend as proper MS installation procedures and why they teach that in MS school to be licensed. Its not some BS MS installers are "Making Up" to charge more money? Its the actual protocol. This is a 200 page manual on MS installations.

    There is a lot more on this fact in the manual however this is enough to prove anyone who thinks this is some ploy created by the installers to make more money is simply Mini-Split illiterate.




    Anyone else still fooled by all this fake news about mini-splits, cost, labor, etc feel free to contact me,... I will be happy to educate you in the FACTS with documentation from certified HVAC universities. Not just un-informed DIY'ers who have no real education on the matter.

    Andrew Ross MacKenzie

    Certifed Master Installer

    Owner/Operator EcoGreen Ductless LLC

  • HU-56948319

    malba 2366- It doesn't matter whether the MS system is a One to One (one air handler to one compressor) or a multi-zone system with five heads to one compressor,... the protocol above is ALWAYS the same. Let me tell you a parable that parallels the the statements Malba 2366 has made with no real supporting facts...

    Lemmings (small rodents) have repeated the same stupid behavior jumping off cliffs to their deaths every year over and over. Does that mean its the smart thing to do just because everyone else is doing it? no it doesn't.

    If thousand of mini-splits are being hacked in all over the world (and I think that is an exaggeration) does that mean its the right way to do it? no it doesn't.

    Yes they were designed for quick installs,... a 24 hour installs is quick compared to other HVAC options.

    Ok,... one more time for all,... If your installer(s) didn't do it this way it wasn't done right,.. PERIOD!

    You may get it to work for a while 3-5 maybe,... but I guarantee the compressor will fail early do to failure to follow the installation guidelines put forth by the AHRI, ASHRAE, & MS MANUFACTURERS instructions for proper installation.

    The other sad but true problem with the false info about min-splits in this thread is this...

    Whats happening now in my industry is Mini-Splits are getting a bad reputation about not lasting 16 to 20 years like they should because unqualified DIYers and half assed installers are cutting corners on the installation process which causes early equipment failure. Its not the equipment folks,... its all this crap on line and on you tube that is spreading false information about Mini-Splits, mini split costs, and how to install them.

    I have tons more documentation from manufacturers and HVAC Universities in PDF & would be happy to share it here or directly to educate and enlighten any non believers who have fallen for fake news the armchair MS authorities posted here.

  • PRO
    Lord & Tarpey Enterprises LLC

    Boomergal50



    Daikin makes a unit that is cool only.

    The cost difference between heat pump and cool only is in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred dollars. I would suggest going with the heat pump as it will be more efficient than the Rinnai and save you money . A couple of the manufactures only sell the heat pump due to the low cost difference.


  • PRO
    Lord & Tarpey Enterprises LLC

    The difference between Europe, Canada and the US is the frequency. The US uses 60HZ Europe and Canada use 50HZ.

    You will get more smoke from a frequency difference than a voltage difference, both smokes being "Blew".

  • PRO
    Lord & Tarpey Enterprises LLC

    creekgirl

    What size is your Electrical Panel. These units usually use on average a 25 amp 2 pole circuit. Your area is small so I would think it would use less.

  • HU-56948319

    From 15 amp to 35amp MOCP is most common depending on your BTU's,... it can be a 220V two pole breaker or "two" totally separate single pole 110 V breakers. As long as you are sending between 208V and 230V to the compressor it will work. I also strongly recomend using a disconnect box with a surge protector unless you want to spend a lot of $$$ replacing the CB/motherboard on your compressor everytime there is a brown out or black out.

  • klem1

    "You will get more smoke from a frequency difference than a voltage difference, both smokes being "Blew"."

    Thanks L&T E, why and how it interfer's with frequency is exactly what I wanted to know. Why the difference has always drove me crazy. Well more accurately,why smoke occasionally cause's me to make the bigger mess is what really drive's me crazy.

  • klem1

    "From 15 amp to 35amp MOCP is most common depending on your BTU's,... it can be a 220V two pole breaker or "two" totally separate single pole 110 V breakers."

    Finally,something you can teach everyone and publish the information to back it up. Since we have been all over the globe,let's just talk about the USA for now and cover the rest of the world later. Not just diy homeowners,pros can print out and wave this under those pesky inspectors noses when they hold NEC in one hand and a red tag in the other. Inspectors have been rejecting single pole breakers even with a tie bar on handles. It will undoubtly put inspectors' tails between their legs when electricians say "look right here where Andrew Ross Mackenzie,Certifed Master Installer say's I can use two totally separate single pole 110v breakers.


  • HU-56948319

    klem1 - Correction,. I didnt say "I do it". Now your just being sassy.

    I mearly said it would feasibly work for the aspect of understanding 220,...

    Anything else? or are you still licking your wounds from getting served.

  • HU-56948319

    Electrical inspectors & mechanical inspectors codes and boundaries are different all over the world and here in the USA too. What you can & cannot do vary's depending upon where you live. I suggest anyone who is DIY ing do the research for your specific area and understand what your local inspectors will and won't approve.

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