I see red flags. Ya gotta take charge of this situation way way more than you have been up till now. In your latest post, the two guys you describe are inadequate. NatalieChantal, the expression about the blind leading the blind is often used to describe weak or ineffectual leadership. E.g. about the Pharisees: "... blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both ... " I've not read most of your posts, because I don't see how handholding or "helping" here will indeed help.

You have a "designer" who won't design, a cabinet person who doesn't know what he sells, and a GC who plans to build cabinets to inaccurate measurements?

I'm not going to tell you it'll be OK, because it won't be. It's just a question of how bad, at this point.

NatalieChantal- It sounds like you need a new GC! While your ideas are good, you really need someone who can help you pull all this together. You shouldn't have to tell them how to do their job.

I would never work with someone I couldn't trust to measure properly! That is so basic and if they can't do that...do you really want them tearing open walls and being responsible for installing your countertops, cabinets, etc? Mistakes can get very expensive! Imagine what will happen, if he can't measure the countertops correctly! Every time he cuts one an inch or two too short, you'll have to buy another countertop!

Also, could the washer/dryer (stacked or side by side) go in the mudroom? Maybe switch the washer/dryer with the boot/coat cubbies? They don't need to be as deep. Just a thought :)

Okay, deep breaths.... Trying not to freak out....

Mcmjilly's comment summed up very well what I think is going on. It's actually what DH told me too when he heard my report from the meeting. I do think the GC is very competent. He is a builder who redid some of the historic buildings in our little town, including the old court house, and his wife is a realtor, together they run their building business and since the housing crash, he has been doing renovations and remodels for residential, where before he did it mostly commercially and new construction for residential. DH feels that when it comes to the actual "nail-pounding work", this guy's work history is solid. But as mcmjilly noted with hers, he is not detail-oriented and does not really see the big deal with a few inches here and there. And that ties in to the cab guy he works with: they probably did a bunch of new homes together where the kitchen layout is pretty typeset and they just need to do slightly different versions of a pleasing kitchen arrangement, while being able to say it is "custom". So, having me must be a nightmare :).

That said I really do not like the cab guy being SO unfamiliar with the custom line. Even if he mostly does the semi-custom, shouldn't he at least be aware of the custom options, or suggest them? The GC has said I am welcome to go through the dealer whose showroom I visited, but that his guy will give me a better price. I don't want to keep pestering the showroom people, who have been very helpful to date, and ask for their help without giving them my business. But, I will be grilling this guy to get all the details about EVERY option available through Omega! DH would rather we do custom anyway since it is the 3/4" plywood instead of 1/2", and he feels that would be better for the soapstone and quartz countertops we picked (SS in mudroom, quartz in kitchen).

For the measurements, maybe I was a little harsh... Or maybe I am just trying to calm myself down.... I think it was again a case of not paying attention to detail. The things that were off were more because he hadn't really paid attention to my plans, like using a 13' width for the kitchen instead of the 12' I told him, or not realizing that his program measures from cabinet to cabinet without accounting for overhang, so his aisles looked 2" too wide. None of those things like overhang, fridge depth, face panels behind range, etc. were noted on his layout so it was hard to gauge where to add or subtract a few inches. So along with the kitchen being too wide, it wasn't very readable to me. But I am crossing my fingers that the new plans will be better after my insistence on accuracy today?

Back to the layout... I am really leaning towards putting the sink under the window so there is not so much wasted cabinet space, and I gain more counter on the peninsula. But I like the look of the corner sink better! Ah, decisions, decisions... The mudroom bump-out is bugging me too... I can't visualize how "off" it will look, and whether it would be really ugly. On the plus side, I should be able to put them on the mudroom side of the pantry closet, so the foodstuffs can be closer to the kitchen. Lavender_lass, I would like to hide them so that is one reason they can't go where the coat stand is. And they would stick out really far, and take up most of the counter space there, if I put them to the right of the mudroom sink.

Sigh... What a week it's been... But on the plus side, the cabinet door I ordered came in tonight! It looks GORGEOUS and goes perfectly with the quartz! I will post pics over the weekend if I can, as that is very exciting. The wood color is even better than I pictured... Nutmeg Coffee on Knotty Alder. Just beautiful!

I haven't read everything so forgive me if what i am about to suggest is ridiculous.
i am thinking about the situation of coming in the front door to the bump out.
can you 'mock-up' that area using cardboard boxes or similar just to get the actual feel of the situation.
how awkward will it actually be etc
you may even be able to then see a solution for the 'flat wall'
of course if the entrance is changing you can try this in another area that is large enough just to get the feel for it
wishing you strength for all the challenges that you are going through. In particular that your son should be strong and fight

also just to reassure you that you are not being too particular. you are just not the average renovator. But then again i don't think anyone on this forum is.
We all actually care about the functionality as well as aesthetics of our new space.
It is a bit challenging to the GC etc but that is tgheir problem

all the best

I think the 1' bump out is not the best solution, not so much for aesthetics but because it will shrink your aisle width between pantry/W/D closet and peninsula from 48" to 36". If this were just a short hallway with nothing on either side, that could probably work. But it's not. You'll block traffic anytime you're doing laundry. With a family of 6, I'm going to guess that's pretty often. ;-) Washer or dryer door open, laundry basket on the floor in front of them, you standing there, too - pretty good road block.

Tell me the dimensions of your W/D, including clearance requirements, tell me how large you'd like each kid's cubby to me (1 for each child, right?) and I'll give it a go for you.

I could be wrong - of course, but I think you're making excuses for the gc... how did the budget go on the renovations of those historical bldgs? stay on budget? was work done as planned? I'd be asking behind the scenes...

and IF he wants to do home renovations to make a living because the big bldg boom is gone, he needs to get with the program (and get a new one evidently) and learn ASAP that those paying the bills and owning the house are the ones to pay attention to.

it sounds like major headache and heartache right around the corner.

Ok couldn't resist... Here are two pics... Please forgive my crappy lighting and iPad camera. It is really MUCh prettier in person!

For the record the quartz in "Savory" by Zodiaq. Door is the Omega Dynasty "Bellehaven" style, with Antiquing effects, in Nutmeg Coffee (stain + dry glaze) on Knotty Alder.

{{gwi:1849616}}

And another with a better shot of the quartz:

{{gwi:1849617}}

Hope you like it!

Oh, and I also wanted to add, the stonework some of you noticed in the pictures linked on the old thread, is all going to be ripped out. It sticks out 4" and sits on top of a 4'x6 slab which obviously cannot stay, but can't be removed without taking out the stonework. Also, I can't say that I'm sorry because IRLnit is a pain right there. It is dry stack, so no mortar except at the back, which means bricks are very prone to falling out and all kinds of crud can get lodged in the huge gaps between the stones. So it would be a nightmare to keep clean as a backsplash for anything. It's a shame because it would be a beautiful look, but the way it was set won't work well in a kitchen. Really a pity.

I agree with everyone who has said the words "RED FLAG!"
We've all read what you've said about your family, the circumstances of the past year, and your hopes for the future. We've all come to care about this project for you, and we don't want you to walk into a situation that will be even more stressful than a kitchen remodel normally is.

Honey, you're not crazy or over obsessing about details to know where every single inch of your space will be used. The lack of 3"-6" in a space can make an otherwise wonderful space unuseable. INSIST on accurate measurements! If he's grumbling about you wanting those at the beginning of this project, just imagine what it will be like in a few weeks/months when what he's built doesn't match the drawing and what you've all spent so many hours discussing. Do you think he'll see the need to fix anything he does wrong if he doesn't think a few inches in the planning phase is important?
Please, if you use this GC, make sure the contract you sign with him has language that protects you, the homeowner, from mistakes or carelessness on his part!

OK, that's me stressing for you as you walk into this. Double check this guy and make sure he can do the job he says he can. Make sure he cares about details as much as you do, or at least some, or you will be fighting with him the entire time, and you may not win all the fights once the building begins. I just don't want you to be stuck with subpar work in the near future!

oh man, NatalieChantal, I have to say, I stopped reading when I read 'he is not detail-oriented and does not really see the big deal with a few inches here and there' because that right there would make me RUN to get someone else.

I hired a guy who wasn't a detail guy. It was so stressful, I can not tell you. Unless you have the time to spend the entire reno watching what they're doing, I am willing to bet there will be mistakes, things you're not happy with, etc, especially if you ARE detail oriented and I can't imagine spending a crapload of money on a kitchen reno, NOT wanting it perfect.

I wish so much that I'd asked the right questions when talking to my guy's references - next time, I'd make SURE to ask if he was a detail kinda guy and if he wasn't, no-go. Trust me. you want someone who will not be ok with 'close enough'.

Deal with the layout simulations first. Completely, or 99%.

The next layer on top of that is the surface : color, grain, texture (wood, granite, etc). Do this before calling guys in.

You are uncertain about many things in layers 1 and 2.

After these two layers are done, you are ready to have detailed talks with guys who build. If you are not paying them anything, it's a misuse of their time. I hope you give them a lot of money.

The guys' incompetence worsens your problem.

The source of the problem is you.

Davidro, I think what I heard you say to Natalie was that she should finalize her layout before she expects her GC to look seriously at the details. Otherwise, his time is being wasted. I see your point in that. I don't think that point conflicts with what everyone else is saying concerning this guys apparent lack of attention to detail.

Both are true: Finalize what you want, and be sure he cares about the final details and can deliver.

I'm chiming in late, but I, too, want to caution about using a GC who's not into the details. Getting the end results you want without making it more stressful than necessary requires very detailed planning.

We could not tolerate another GC bringing us a layout where they glazed over details that in real life would have resulted in diaster (e.g., fridge too close to wall that door won't open all the way, placing a cabinet over a vent, trying to put a range on a wall where it couldn't be
vented).

Before you go with this guy, I strongly recommend you talk to references with projects with a similar scope as your project and ask specific questions about the details.

If I were you and decided to move forward with this type of contractor, this is what I would do:
- Have a strong contract that puts responsibility for errors or omissions on him.
- Write EVERYTHING down. After every meeting, send him an email on what was agreed or at least keep good notes for yourself.
- Before ordering anything, have him come back and double check the measurements.
- Make sure he has copies of all appliance specifications and takes any clearances into account.
- Before ordering cabinets or appliances, do a walk through in the space to answer questions either of us may have.

At the end of the day, we were so obsessed with the details we decided to GC our own remodel. If the fridge didn't fit in the cabinet, we had no one to blame but ourselves! Once we got into the remodel, our obsession paid off and things went relatively smoothly.

Good luck with everyhing. I love your quartz and door selection. Very classy.

@Davidrol -- this seems harsh. Most of us don't have every detail down before talking to contractors and especially when talking to cabinet salespeople. Getting cabinet drawings of your kitchen is a normal part of the sales process. Most people aren't like GW where we buy the layout programs and visualize it ourselves. Cabinet show rooms generally provide drawings with their bids, and better ones have someone who actually cares about helping with the layout. She should be able to work through her cabinet person to finalize layout choices without involving the GC in every twist and turn, though.

@Natalie -- You can rationalize that everything is going to be fine once the work starts, but this seems wrong. I would not go with the GC's cabinet person at all. They are not providing the level of assistance you need. Find a cabinet person who really knows their product line (at a minimum) and will help you with accurate drawings (and be willing to pay for the design services if it's not included in the cost of the cabinets). Most cabinet sales places will draw based on your measurements for free, but may not release detailed drawings or come out for final measurements until you put down the deposit.

Hiring people who care about details really helps the whole process go smoothly. Also, hiring people who "do this all the time" really helps versus someone who "did a lot of commercial projects and cookie-cutter construction, but is now doing remodels, too" is safer. You really want someone who does a lot of remodels because the kinds of issues that come up in residential remodels is different than in commercial buildings or in new construction.

NatalieChantal- Have you considered something like this?

The washer and dryer could go under the window, with a prep sink to the left. Move the peninsula over a foot and you have plenty of room for your kitchen sink, under the window. This would leave you all the space on the other wall for a walk-in pantry.

If you think the washer and dryer are ugly, what about some front loading ones, with a counter over the top? The peninsula would still make a great craft area...and a folding counter.

Hope this gives you some good ideas...and please, try to find another GC. And maybe talk to Lowe's and Home Depot. They might not have the exact same cabinets, but hopefully they're better at measuring :)

{{gwi:1849618}}

Nice idea, LL. btw, Natalie already owns front loaders. She's shown them as stacked in all of her drawings.

I'll weigh in and tell you a few of the things that went wrong when I used a less-than-detail-oriented GC:

1. Our faucet was installed too close to the sink. I think most people are installing the high gooseneck pull down faucets and it didn't occur to him that my low pullout with a longer reach needs different placement. It isn't the end of the world, but I do wish it was 1-1.5 inches back.

2. We ended up with a big seam in an 18" tall portion of our quartz backsplash when it could have easily been put under a window.

3. The grout on our tile was obviously mixed in two batches, so the color changes slightly. I didn't say anything because I think I'm the only person who notices.

4. When installing the lighting under cabinets that were side by side, the crew cut out part of the wood that separated the cabinets so they could install one long light instead of two small ones. I would have preferred two small lights and no cutting.

5. The wrong tile was ordered. Luckily, I like the wrong tile and it's my favorite part of the kitchen.

There's probably more.

In the end, everything is OK, and I can live with it, but if you are the type of person who is going to see red every time she wishes the faucet had been installed farther back or every time she sees a stupid seam placement, then you need to look for a different GC.

thought I'd add my experience to mcmjilly's.

1. my guy hung upper cabinets half way covering a hole in the wall. I had just assumed it'd get patched prior but nope. He told me that it shouldn't be visible behind our eventual glass backsplash. wrong. It was visible and would have been a lot easier to patch without the cabinet there.

2. I told him everything needed to line up. I couldn't get filler pieces in our drawings because of the ikea software and me not getting along, but he didn't line up the lower and upper cabinets, ie the filler pieces, the same same on the lowers as on the uppers, were not in the same spot vertically. the uppers had to be taken down, the lowers moved around, to make it all appear not totally ghetto.

3. our heating vent is under the cabinets. He built the cabinets over top, with one of the feet directly in front of the vent. I have no idea how to correct this now, it's hard to explain but basically we didn't notice until too late and now we have to figure out a way to fix it.

4. they built these custom window thingies that are to go directly above the counter. when centering them and mounting them in place, I noticed that they weren't lined up with the counter. Actually, one was, and one wasn't. Our ceiling and walls and stuff aren't perfectly straight and level (whose are??) and apparently, he was lining them up with our CEILING, not the counter. the ceiling is easily three feet above the top of the windows, the bottom of which sit on the counter, so why in the world would he not be making them flush with the counter?

4. he couldn't get the filler pieces to not chip when he cut them. We noticed one wasn't shiny when the others were. We pulled it out and he put it in backwards, flat side out, shiny, chipped side in. I mean it was so obvious! I had to tell him to put tape on the filler piece and to cut into the shiny side to avoid chips after researching it, and felt like such a bltch doing it.

5. I told them it was uberimportant to me to have all the handles the same distance from the edges. Went and measured, they're not the same. I mean it's like 3mm off here, 2 mm off there, but to someone who's a perfectionist, and since they are drilled in, it's upsetting.

6. didn't test the handles (edge pulls) and when you pull the bottom drawer out, the top drawer hardware drags along the pull marking it. I had to reconfigure how the handles went on, but I mean he was just going to leave it that way. ARGH.

there were so many little things like that, and it stressed me and made me want to weep every time. you need a detail guy.

Lisa- Thanks :)

I didn't see that Natalie already had front loaders...that might make things easier, if they don't have to be stacked.

Sorry to read about so many problems with GC's. Makes you really wonder how they stay in business.

Ouch. I am not sure what to do at this point... Or whether the problem is really the GC or me. davidro1 has a good, if painful, point that I DO need to pick a layout so the GC can start his job, and that these issues stem with my uncertainty. OTOH, I told GC at the start that I "pretty much" knew what I wanted, but needed help tweaking it to make it just right. I guess I expected him to help me with that, the way everyone here jumped in so helpfully with critiques and re-drawings of my layout. Instead he is waiting for me to tell him what to do so we can start work. I feel like he wants me to hand him a blueprint and say "please make this happen", but is not going to have any input on the blueprint itself unless he sees major/unfeasible issues. The thing is I like the guy, in think he is nice, I think he is honest, I think he is competent, but is he the right guy to walk a detail-oriented homeowner through her first remodel?... I am starting to wonder.

So now I feel stuck, and kind of guilty... If the problem is me, I shouldn't be blaming the GC, and I would prefer to do business with a local guy whom I can call on in the future. But, I will have to know EXACTLY what I want, because he is not helping me figure it out, and that's hard when I've never done this before and often don't even know what to look for or keep in mind. Or I could go with the store in the city, but what if their people aren't very good, and then I may have caused bad feeling which is not good in a small town like mine.... And although I like the one saleslady at the store, I do not care for the quality of professionals in that area.

So back to square one: I will wait for the updated layout plans, and see whether the GC has paid attention and gotten everything right, or if he has "winged it". For the cab guy, maybe if I ask him upfront to give me all the info for the CUSTOM line, it would help? But if the next meeting does not go well again, and it is clear we are not able to get on the same page, that might be a good point to stop trying so hard to work together and look at a kitchen place specifically. I don't want to be wishy-washy but if we need to find someone else, best to do that before actual work/orders are started.

And ps to davidro1.... GC is not doing this for free. I have paid him a retainer already so am not just wasting his time with layout changes.

The other night we rented that move, "Unstoppable," about an unmanned runaway train carrying a huge load of explosive chemicals barreling toward a hairpin turn in a highly populated town.

Can't imagine why I thought of it now.

nataliechantal, have you tried just having a heart to heart with your GC and explaining the situation to him? once you nail down the layout, tell him that you're nervous about the details and were hoping he could assist with that. He may charge you for an hour of his work, but I can't imagine him saying no, and if he does, then I'd definitely go with someone else. If he says yes, mention that details are super important to you, and that since you're spending a lot of money, you want the kitchen to be perfect and you're not experienced at this like he is and would love his help and assistance to make your kitchen exactly right. I think if you spin it that way, that you're really inexperienced and he has done this so many times, he might be more inclined to sit with you and work things out?

Have you seen other house remodels this GC has done, inspected their kitchens, spoken with their owners? Do you have a reason to think he can and does produce great kitchens to exacting, detailed requirements? Restoring an old courthouse or whatever doesn't involve much kitchenry.

It does sound like the kitchen part of your project is headed for a bad ending, where the not-detail-oriented-and-doesn't-see-why-it-matters GC and the doesn't-know-exactly-what-she-wants client combine to deliver a big frustrating headache for everyone.

I would think you basically have three choices.

1) Continue down this path.

2) Put your b*tch face on and make it clear who is boss. Make the GC re-draw the layout over and over until every 1/4 inch is accounted for, in plan and elevation, and everything works and opens and swings and clears. Get educated and tell him - in a writing that he signs - what every last detail is going to look like. Down to the counter overhang, the precise positioning of every handle (''they should line up'' is not enough), the exact height of the finished counter, which molding goes here, how high the uppers should be mounted, etc etc. This kind of sucks, because you're going to be doing all kinds of research and making all kinds of decisions that the GC really should do or at least be alerting you to. Lot of work.

3) Have someone else, who actually has a good track record of doing custom kitchens for finicky people, do the cabinets: the measuring, layout, the ordering or building, the installation. It sounds like the GC is doing other work in the house besides just supervising the kitchen cabinets. It also doesn't sound like the GC's ''cabinet guy'' is actually going to build much, if he's just ordering cabinets from Omega (after being presented to you as a custom cabinet maker, isn't that a lie by the GC?) Get rid of that cabinet guy. Suppose have the GC do whatever else is to be done, including roughing in the kitchen's plumbing and electrical. When the kitchen is drywalled and roughed in, with floors and so on, have a new cabinet maker, who is detail-focused and cares about inches, come in and measure, do a layout, do the cabinets, and install. Then your GC can come back and do (have done) the final plumbing, electrical, counter, etc assuming you trust him to do so.

Of course, option 4) is to fire this GC and find someone else. I am sort of assuming you are in too deep for that, but if not, you might consider it.

I also want to point out something specific that you are doing wrong. You said:

''I feel a little frustrated that the measurements and placing of appliances and cabinets was off everywhere by several inches in his layout plans, and he seemed very surprised when I asked him to make sure it was accurate in the new plans (I asked very nicely and joked about my difficulty in measuring). ''

This is wrong. Why were you jokey with the GC about his measuring errors? Were you trying to make him feel better, not be mad at you, continue to like you? You should see by now how irrelevant that is. He needs to respect and obey you, and if not then to fear and obey you. Whether he enjoys the process is irrelevant. The conversation should have been more like:

''Please measure this, right here. It is not what you have in the layout you asked me to approve. Do you see that? Why did you bring me a layout with incorrect measurements? Will I have to check every one of your measurements? I do not want you to bring me bad measurements again. Re-measure everything, fix this layout, make the changes I want. When you come back, we will verify those measurements again. I do not want sloppy work here. I will make you re-do it.

You need to take control and get what you want.

@johnliu if the (''they should line up'' is not enough) part was aimed at me, I am not a kitchen reno person, I just had a kitchen that had to be reno'd and relied too much on my carpenter at first, it was my mistake and I wouldn't make it again. As per the handles, I told him (because I am TERRIBLE at measuring and I know this - if I weren't, I would happily have done it myself) that I need them all to be the same distance from the edge as the thickness of the cabinets. I don't trust myself to measure the thickness of the cabinets, so I asked him to. OK done defending m'self and hijacking this thread. :oP

desertsteph said it: it sounds like major headache and heartache right around the corner.

hi NatalieChantal...

renovations are really hard and stressful. you sound like you already have a full plate, and my heart goes out to you.

but it sounds like you need a new kitchen, too.

you DO need to have a gc who will be on your side and help you by getting the details right. this concerns me.

btw, gardenweb-regular buehl has omega/dynasty cabinets, and i was almost sure she mixed and matched....

so i think you do need to check that out (sorry if i missed that you did.)

i used a "highly recommended" electrician who was done a lot of work in my neighborhood. based on my experience, i wonder how he got that reputation. maybe he just got arrogant.

please try to get more competent help that is a good fit for YOU. i wish you the best.

I hear you all loud and clear.

To top it off, a few minutes after my last post I got a FW'd email from him with the range hood quote from ModernAire. Now he knows I have a DCS 36" range - he ordered it for me (from the appliance place I asked to avoid if possible, as I hadn't cared for their CS last time I was in there). The hood quote is for a 48"x27"x30" tall hood. Isn't that off? Shouldn't the hood be 42"x30" and height be discussed with me, with feedback from MA?

So, I am thinking that when GC has the new layouts for me, we will be having a frank discussion about the fact that this project may not the right one for us to collaborate one....

NatalieChantal- If I were you, I'd be a bit overwhelmed with all these responses! Maybe take a deep breath, and start with your plan :)

As you said, if you know what you want to do, you can show it to your GC and then evaluate if he's the person for the job, or not. As for the cabinets, I'd worry about that after you decide on the GC. Another GC might have a different cabinet person.

So, that being said, take the weekend and finalize your plans. Then, let us know how things go with the GC. We're all happy to help, so have a great weekend and I look forward to seeing your next layout!

Hi Natalie--Just happened upon your thread. So sorry you're inundated with so much at the moment. My mom dubbed me "The Cancer Kid" too! Like your son, I also had a "blood cancer". I'm 23 years out with 2 beautiful sons I wasn't supposed to be able to have after all the surgeries, chemo & radiation. My heart goes out to you all. I will definitely keep your son & family in my thoughts and prayers. On that note, know that there is hope & just take things one breath at a time :-)

As far as your kitchen goes, I feel your pain on second guessing how something is going to look from the floorplan layout. I bought a software program that can do floorplans and elevations because I have a very hard time with visualization--I've just got to see it. It's paid for itself many times over with our new home build at this point. Our cabinet guy said it made his job very easy. I'll see if I can put one together for you based on your plans & comments posted above. Maybe that will help some with visualizing the sink, mudroom bumpout, etc. It may help with the GC/cabinet guy as well no matter if you continue with your current one or opt to find a new one.

Absolutely LOVE your cabinet style & color with your Zodiaq quartz countertops! The nutmeg color has such a pretty richness to it while the knotty alder gives the cabinet so much character and depth. It's going to be beautiful!!

Not to beat a dead horse, but there seems to be so much "wasted floor space" with the L-shaped island. I was never really a fan of islands with seating either (especially if the dining table is right there) until Mom put one in her new house & I can tell you it's so nice to be able to sit right there with her while she's cooking vs. sitting at the dining table while she's at the island (similar layout to yours). It was something I had to experience though to understand it. With that being said, I don't think I'd want a square or rectangle island in your space either and I see what you're saying about traffic flow. Have you thought about something like this for the island? (obviously yours would have the range in it)

Or what if you flipped the L-Island and incorporated the dining table like this?

Just a couple thoughts. I'll post those elevations when I get them together for you.

I haven't read your previous post but did look at the photos and layout drawings.

I'm really sorry to hear about your son. I'll keep your family in my thoughts.

Have you considered putting the kitchen where the dining table is and the dining room where the kitchen is? Since your layout doesn't show the entire dining room I'm not sure it would be feasible but I think it could work very well.

Since you have those amazing log walls I would assume moving windows and doors wouldn't be an option but just changing the door swing on the front door could help considerably.

If that wall of windows is 36 inches from the floor you could run the cabinets under them and have a very nice topless kitchen look.

You could also add a whole wall of cabinets in the mudroom to make up for lost uppers in the kitchen. And even though I didn't draw one in you would have plenty of space for an island in the kitchen.

Here's a rough sketch...

summersucks (why does it?), that wasn't aimed at you. I didn't see the part about your handles until I went back and re-read, just now.

Mydreamhome... Thank you so much for sharing that with me. It is so encouraging to hear that you are doing well and were able to have children! My DS has a relapse of his leukemia with only a week break in treatment, so it's been a long, hard road. He ADORES babies and is so nurturing with his little siblings, and wants 10 kids of his own, so I hope this treatment does not make that impossible for him. So encouraging to hear how well you are doing! And thank you for offering to use your program for my kitchen project - I would love that and can post some sketches of my ideas! That is so kind of you!
As far as the pictures you posted, I am not planning on putting seating at my island. The counter overhang with seating will be at the peninsula between mudroom and kitchen. The L shaped island is because I like the look of squaring off the space in the kitchen, and directing the flow of traffic outside my work area.

Homeagain, flipping the DR and kitchen is an interesting thought, but just not feasible in my space. For one, the windows on the wall are much lower than 36" - more like 25" I think. So I couldn't use that wall for the kitchen. On the current DR side, there is a 42" doorway to the LR, and the wall opposite the windows has the door to the bathroom, the little water heater closet, and then a wooden beam before turning the corner to the mudroom. It works pretty well for a DR though, so I'll leave it as is except to get a glass top made for my DR table (note to self: worm holes in table tops to make them look "authentic" trap every single crumb and are a PITA to clean!).

I do think I have solved the "bump-out" problem for the mudroom, though! If I don't stack the W/D, they will fit the space inside - just barely, but they will fit. So I can put wide pantry shelves over them and just stack foodstuffs towards the front so I don't have to reach far back over the W/D. In the 20" space left width-wise, I could put in those nifty space-saver pantry pull-outs. So that should work out, I hope!!!!

Thanks again everyone! Once I get new layouts - whenever THAT happens - I will start a new thread as this one is pretty long bynow! But in the meantime please keep the comments coming. You have no idea how encouraging this is to me, and how much I truly appreciate it! Thank you SO MUCH to all of you!

Natalie, I can't be much help in your layout but one thing you could consider is making one side of you L shape island deeper with 12 inch upper cabs on the back side. Gives you a little more storage but most importantly gives safety space behind the range. I understand and miss my range facing the activity in my present kit.

Natalie, I like eandhl's idea about the 12 inch deep uppder cabinets on the back side of the of the island alot. You could use that as your pantry space allowing your laundry room to truly be your laundry room and keeping all your pantry items close at hand in the kitchen.

Go ahead and post those sketches and I'll see what I can do over the weekend for you :-)

Natalie, I hope you take the concerns voiced about working with a non-detail oriented GC to heart. You've enough on your plate without adding that headache.

Putting that aside for now, I thought I'd toss out two more plans for you to consider, combining my ideas with other ideas suggested above and keeping the things you liked about previous plans.

Changes I made to both plans:

I bumped out the sink wall to allow for the brick on that wall. I looked at your photos and guessed that it protrudes out 4-6". Moving that run of cabinets out to allow for the brick (that's the brown colored section) meant that I needed to shrink the prep sink section of the island by the same amount to keep your aisles at 42". On the plus side, this gives you extra deep counters behind the sink and on the other side of the fridge.

I added a 12" deep cabinet on the back side of the island. You can store placemats, cookbooks, small appliances, etc here. You still have 42" or so between table and island. We have 41" between table and island and don't have a problem, even though it's a main path from front hall to back door. However, if you can shift the table over 6 inches, that would be good.

Even though location of W/D is different in these plans, I drew them close to true dimensions. They are certainly deeper than the 24" deep you've drawn them in each plan. My 11+ year old front loaders are 28" deep, not counting the clearance space required behind them, and they aren't the largest machines available. New machines can be as much as 36" deep. Width hasn't changed much. Mine are 27" wide and that seems to be pretty much the case with new machines, too. Even if your current machines are smaller, it would be wise to plan according to dimensions of new machines. Someday (hopefully a long time from now) your machines will die and replacing them will be easier if you allowed sufficient room. I added clearance space behind and between each machine in both drawings.

Blue lines show lower cabinets. Red lines are upper cabinets. I added arrows for a few cabinets to make it clear which way they would open.

{{gwi:1849621}}

I adopted LL's suggestion but reversed the order of sink and W/D so that the sink is handy for craft projects on the peninsula. I also placed the dryer 6" out from the cubbies so that the door could swing more than 90 degrees for easier access to its tub.

Repercussions from placing the W/D on this wall and giving them sufficient space:
Shrinks space for cubby cabinets.
Shifts peninsula 1' into the kitchen, which requires kitchen sink to be a corner sink.
Shifts one peninsula seat around the corner. You have the space, didn't affect the aisle, it's still 48".
The distance between peninsula corner and range island corner shrinks from 48" to 40"-42".
Gain storage by making the upper cabinet to the left of the dryer go to the counter.

{{gwi:1849622}}

I placed the W/D next to each other in the existing pantry closet, removed the doors and added a counter matching the counters elsewhere over the W/D. Upper cabinets above provide storage. If you need hanging storage, you can make one of the uppers go to the counter above the washer and add a clothes rod between cabinet and wall above the dryer. This set-up intrudes into the room a little - shrinks the aisle to 42" here - but since it's open to the room with matching counter, I think it will seem less obtrusive than a 1' bump-out wall and doors that your GC suggested. The downside is that this puts your W/D 9'6" away from your (utility?) sink.

Since it's generally not a good idea to store pantry goods in a cabinet with heat-producing appliances, I added a pantry pull-out cabinet to the right of the fridge. I placed the MW on a shelf just below the counter. The area to the right of the pantry cab can be snack central - handy to fridge, pantry and MW but out of the main cooking zone.

If my opinion matters, I think my second plan is the better of the two. You put all food stuff in the kitchen, handy to your prep area, still have plenty of milling around area for kids in mud room and in kitchen, you retain a large usable peninsula, no one needs to sit in the aisle, and you keep the full length of cubby cabinets.

Lisa- Very nice! I really like the 12" cabinet, behind the cooktop for storage...and good point, to add some room for the brick, behind the fridge.

I think either plan would work well, depending on what storage is more important. While I like the big pantry in the first plan, if a pull out pantry provides enough storage, then the second plan would be what I would choose. The snack area is a great idea...nicely done :)

Lisa_a, you ROCK! Love all the layout you are proposing for me... You are too kind. I also like plan B better. Really, I thunk I could get the W/D in the pantry without any bump out. It would be tight, but I *think* it would work. There is already a water hookup in there for it, actually, so that would put the dryer to the left (looking at the layout plan - right if you are staining in front of it) and washer to the right. So I still think I could squeeze in some pull-out organizers next to the washer without worrying about heat. But what I think would be really nifty, would be to put in some cabinets on top of the peninsula, between the rooms with the back of the cabs against he wall, so the doors would face the length of the counter. It would help divide the rooms further, and I could put in roll-out pantry shelves there, too.

The stonework is unfortunately going to have to go. You are right, it is 4"-6" deep, but that is not the issue... The issue is that it sits in top of a 4'x6 stone slab which has to come out, or we'd trip on it constantly. S the bottom part would have to come out, and then it would be a pain to back up appliaces or hang cabs from it, plus being a great spot for bugs to hide out in, so... Out it goes. It's not like it would be seen anyway if we cover it up with the fridge and cabinets.

I updated the drawings a little to fit in a corner sink on the island instead. The prep sink idea is such great advice, but it really bugged me to lose so much prep area. It just didn't look right and after mocking it up at home, I knew I would forever regret losing that prep space. But fortunately a quick search showed me that triangle sinks exist, so I will plan on putting in in the corner of the L and voila!

Still need to see accurate measurements to decide if we can do a little back to the range. I have 12' in the DR, my table is 44" wide and the sideboard/hutch is 18". So that leaves me already with about 42" walkways all around, not sure if we can cut into that. But since I am not good at measuring, there may be a few inches I didn't account for, or maybe it's not exactly 12'. I hope it is feasible because the thought of having extra cabinets for linens, silverware etc,sounds heavenly!

I'm going to try to scan in the new layout (w/o the 12" back to the range until I can check measurements), and a drawing of the fridge area, later today.

Hi Natalie. After such a difficult year, the last thing you need is a more stress. I'm sorry to be difficult but I have to agree with others who recommend that you run, not walk, away from this GC and cabinet maker. I learned the hard way not to get rid of my GC when the red flags started popping up (DH didn't want to lose our $10K retainer). Working with him turned out to be one of the worst experiences I ever had. I honestly thought I was going to have a breakdown and I don't fluster easily. It wasn't until after I finally fired him that I could see how very angry I was every day for months and it felt so good not to feel that way anymore. We lost over $50K and a lot of time keeping him on. Your guy also sounds like he has something going on with his cabinet guy. If you do keep him, I'd get a quote from the Omega showroom too, just to be sure you're not getting gouged. (My GC did that to me on numerous occasions).

One other thought. Unless you are very organized and tidy, you may want to rethink the open mudroom/laundry room. It looks great on paper, but high maintenance to keep it nice IRL. We added a mudroom to the back of our house when we redid the kitchen. I thought of putting a coffee nook in there but went for a desk instead. I'm so glad I did because sitting around open cubbies isn't pretty or relaxing. And I'm sure I wouldn't want to have to look at them or my "in progress" laundry while entertaining in the kitchen. Just my $.02.

You're welcome, Natalie! Sorry to hear you'll lose the brick wall but it sounds like it's a good thing after all.

Saw this pic at houzz.com. Given that you're a family of 6, thought this set-up might work for you in your mudroom area (pegs and bench replace the counter and cabs to the left of your mudroom sink).

[

[traditional laundry room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-laundry-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_753~s_2107) by chicago general contractor Stonebreaker Builders & Remodelers

It would be nice if you can squeeze in more storage next to the W/D in the closet but I'm not sure it will work out in reality as well as you hope. Even if your machines can have 0" clearance between them and walls (check your manual) and you're able to install them with 0" clearance between them (tough to do), that leaves only 6" for a cabinet. Take away the 3/4" for the cabinet sides and you've got 4.5" for storage but only if you go with frameless cabinets. If you choose framed cabinets, what you've got left is hardly worth the bother and the cost of the cabinet.

You could still add pantry cabinets above the machines but I'd make the space as open as possible so that heat from both machines can dissipate into the room (washers create heat, too. Anything that uses electricity will create heat, including refrigerators). Instead of closet doors for the whole space, go with separate cabinet doors for the W/D with counter over them and cabinets above. One cab can be for pantry goods, the other for detergents and such.

Here's a photo from houzz.com that shows W/D behind cabinet doors (open):

[

[traditional family room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-family-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_720~s_2107) by dc metro kitchen and bath Case Design/Remodeling, Inc.

And with doors closed:

[

[contemporary family room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-family-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_720~s_2103) by dc metro kitchen and bath Case Design/Remodeling, Inc.

Another option to bi-fold cabinet doors is to spec doors that slide into the cabinet sides, like these:

[

[traditional entry design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-entryway-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_741~s_2107) by boston kitchen and bath Venegas and Company

How fortunate that the space is already plumbed!

If you can't add the 12" cabinet behind the range, I strongly encourage you to raise the height of the backside of the island to increase the safety zone around your island range. You are quite used to keeping pot handles turned in and out of the aisles but I'll bet your kids aren't. I'd hate for someone to be badly burned because of the one time one of your children forgot to do this. Another plus: the raised backsplash this creates is a convenient place to add island outlets. I can't find a photo at the moment but will try later so that you can see what I'm talking about.

Not sure what a triangle sink looks like. Make sure it's sufficiently sized to be of use for your needs. Go see one in person.

Lisa_a, love the pictures! The mudroom unit is very close to the one I'm planning, except I want a open back with hooks. We considered wrapping it around like in the picture, but in the end decided that the counter space on either side of the sink was more important, and we can put in a blind corner pull-out to use the bottom of that corner for storage.

As far as the W/D, yeah you're right, the best thing to do with leftover side space is probably to hook up an ironing board and iron. But if we put in wide shelves over the units, I can store things like Tupperware, paper products, drinks, gift wrap etc. up there, and use a cabinet over the peninsula for foodstuffs. We'll still need to open it up a bit more and use larger (6') doors, but that's it. FYI we have bifold now, and I really wanted to do pocket doors (the kind that slide back, like you suggested), but the cab guy told me they don't hold up well at all when they are so big. Its a shame because I hate losing those few inches of clearance at the sides when you open a bifold door.

A triangle sink is... a triangle shape with a curved back, kind of like a quarter circle! I'll try to find one locally so I can drag a stockpot and colander to fit them in it.

So here are the new designs. I hope you like them!

{{gwi:1849627}}

{{gwi:1849630}}

NatalieChantal- I really like your plan! Your built-ins for the toaster oven and microwave look great :)

As for the island, I actually liked the prep sink, on the end of the island. It gave you more prep space, between the cooktop and the sink. Now, they're so close together, the sink might get in the way of the prep space.

Also, is there anyway you might think about Lisa's idea of adding the 12" behind the cooktop? If you don't want a cabinet, what about open shelves for cookbooks? That's what I'm planning to do, so I don't have hot pots and pans right against the edge of the work surface.

I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for, but the first one is under construction (and has a sink) but I like the shelves. The other one is much more of a restaurant style kitchen, but provides great storage for dishes, etc. Hope this gives you some good ideas.

{{gwi:1849632}}

{{gwi:1849634}}

Lavender_lass, thanks so much! I'm glad you like the fridge cabinet with the shelves for TO and MW. I am hoping it will look nice IRL!

As for the prep sink, visually I like it better on the end, too. But I really want the length of that arm to prep, and I don't to cut up the look of a lovely sweep of wood with a sink. By the range, it's not so bad as the busyness of the cooktop is already there too. I guess it came down to what I can live with and honestly, I knew I would forever regret losing that part of the wood surface. The angle is not a place I would reach much to cut so it's no loss to put the sink there, and perhaps more useful anyway to drain pasta or add water, anyway.

It's not that I don't care for the back that lisa_a suggested, I'm just not sure I have the room to put it in. So I lef it off until my GC gives me a plan with good measurements. But if I can't do it, so be it. I just am not worried about the safety issue since right now my cooktop backs directly onto the main walkway into the house. Having the range behind the DR table will be so much safer already, as nobody uses that as a walkway except as necessary during meals, and any curious children can sit on the table to watch the cooking process.

I wish everyone's username came up with a link to their kitchen! I would love to see yours!

Natalie, you've come a long way from your initial plan, making some great changes that will make your kitchen work well, but there are still some issues you need to resolve in order to have a well-functioning kitchen that you'll love for years to come. I'm going to be blunt.

If you don't have room to add a 3-4" deep buffer, taller than the counter, behind your range - if space is that tight - then your plan needs to be adjusted to avoid serious safety concerns that *everyone* here has mentioned. 42" between table and back of range *is not enough*. I'm glad you haven't had any problems with this type of set-up so far but your kids are young. They will grow and get bigger and take up more space than they do now. My youngest is now 6 feet tall. He used to run circles around my island *beneath* the counter overhang.

NKBA (National Kitchen and Bath Association) guidelines state that "Countertop should extend a minimum of 9" BEHIND the cooking surface, at the same counter height as the appliance, in any instance where there is not an abutting wall/backsplash." (emphasis mine.) You are planning to have 0" of counter behind your range, which is more highly powered than your existing cooktop.

Adding a 12" deep cabinet is only one option. Here are photos showing another option that takes up about 3-4".

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by boston architect DSA Architects
Eliminate the rounded curve for seating, just have the counter go straight across the top. You can see how this gives you a buffer around your range without intruding into the room that much. When someone bumps up against the range side of the island, instead of getting close to burners or pot handles, they bump this small bit of cabinetry with its counter cap instead. Bruises are way better than burns.

Here are two photos showing what it would look like from the range side.

[

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by other metros architect Birdseye Design
There's an outlet, barely noticeable, tucked along the backsplash to the left of the bowl of fruit.

[

[eclectic kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by seattle general contractor Neil Kelly Company - Design & Remodeling
You can see the outlets more easily in this photo. It also shows an angled island with cooktop and prep sink, somewhat similar to what you're planning.

I don't think the sink as you show it is going to be very functional from the range side of the island. There's no sink frontage facing that way. You'll end up wedging yourself into the corner of the L - made even tighter because your range sticks out beyond the edge of the counter (see my next paragraph). You'll also need to lean over to use that sink. If you really want a sink next to the range and not closest to the fridge (most work flows fridge to sink to prep to range), then angle the inner corner so that you have easier access to the sink.

Your aisles will actually be less than you show in all cases because you're not adding in the counter overhang (1" to 1-1/2"), the actual depth of the CD fridge (add 4" at least, not counting handles) or of your slide-in DCS 36" range, which is 27-1/2" deep according to DCS, other sites list it as 28-1/8" deep or 29-1/4" deep. Difference could be because one includes handles, knobs, the other doesn't. Either way, it's definitely not 24" deep as you show. You're also still skimping on counter overhang on the peninsula. I understand that you're trying to keep as much open space as possible but shrinking overhang from 15" to 12" will actually backfire. Chairs will need to be scooted farther away because there isn't enough leg room under the counter. You need to show accurate clearances to settle on a plan that will work IRL as well as it does on paper. If you don't, you won't discover the pinch points until it's built.

Here's a suggestion to address the island concerns I mention above:

{{gwi:1849638}}

I shifted the range section of the island forward 3-4" to allow for a backsplash behind that area, as per photos above. I angled the inner corner and added a 14-15" wide rectangular sink. You still have 36" of prep space to its left. Most work flows from fridge to sink to prep to range but having your sink placed in the inner corner allows you to use the faucet (get one with a pull-out sprayer) as a pot filler, which would be really handy. The downside is that I think this will still be a pinch point because the range sits deeper than the counter.

You're seriously crowding your counter space around your main sink. You have 14" to the left and less than that to the right because of the upper cabinets that sit on the counter. You don't accurately depict the depth of the upper cabinets either. They will sit 12" deep, not including the doors, not the 9" you show in your drawing.

I'm not sure why you've opted to move one of the peninsula seats to the mudroom sink wall. You've plenty of room for 3 to sit side by side on your 6' long peninsula (recs are for 24" for each person). As you've placed them, you'll actually have more collisions when either of the people seated at the inner corner move their chairs away from the counter. It will be even worse if both get up at the same time.

btw, my math the other day was off when I was talking about your pantry/W/D closet. I saw 6' and thought 60". D'oh. So you could end up with a 15" pull out pantry cabinet to the left of your W/D (I'm allowing for 3" wiggle room for moving W/D in and out without scraping the heck out of the pantry cabinet). Will that, along with your countertop pull out cabinets give you enough pantry storage for your family of 6? That seems on the skimpy side to me but maybe you shop regularly instead of buying in bulk.

Lastly, I wasn't suggesting such large slide-in doors for the whole closet, only for the W/D cabinets. They would be much shorter and lighter, and should hold up without a problem.

Natalie, you actually have quite a generous space to work with but the constraints you insist upon reduce options for planning ample workspace for your new kitchen. Your largest sections of counter are not next to the main sink or the range. This is your kitchen and you admitted you and your husband are stubborn so it's likely you'll do as you wish, despite our best attempts to help. I just think that would be a shame because kitchen remodels take time and money and they are not fun to live through. I'd like to see you get a huge return for your efforts when all's said and done.

Natalie: I've been following your thread, but haven't contributed because I couldn't come up with anything better or different than Lisa and others have.

But there is now one concern that I'm not sure others have mentioned. If I understand correctly you plan to have roll-out pantry shelves at the end of the peninsula. I had rollouts at my last house and loved them. But, I hope you are realizing that even with rollouts, these are not going to be easy to reach. And for food items that seems like a problem. The bottom shelf will be fine. The next one up, not so good. it'll be tough to reach all the way across the counter to the interior part of those rollouts. And you'll have to walk around the peninsula to get the other side of the rollouts. The top roll out will require you to get a stool to see and pick what you want from it.

IMO, Lisa, also hit the nail on the head with several of her concerns about your use of space and the safety concerns of the range on the island.

I would urge you and your DH to sit down and mull why you are so insistent on some givens. Some, of course, are budgetary or structural. And some are practical, given the way you and your family live. But others seem to be routed in an idea you have in your head about what your kitchen should look like, and I greatly fear that the reality of it won't match up. Perhaps it would help if you could take a moment to think about how you want the room to function and pretend to walk through various tasks, with children in various places, and see how they work.

As Lisa points out, you actually have a decent size space to work with and if you could open yourself up to some new ideas about how to get to the end result, you might end up happier. Kitchens are expensive. You don't want to regret something.

Lisa_a and melissastar, thank you for your posts and concerns. Lisa_a you have such great suggestions and I do take them to heart. I do like the idea of putting in a narrow 3"-4" ledge higher than the range back for safety. It's just very weird for us to see so much concern about this when our current coooktop has so much traffic behind it without any clearance as it is (not our design BTW) and it hasn't been a problem. I never expected this to be such a big deal. And I appreciate all your creative ideas to make it safer, and will certainly see about adding that higher ledge. I just emailed my GC to ask if the range came in yet (I want to make sure the right one got ordered... That's another story!) so we could see it in person and get accurate measurements for the layout plan.

For the peninsula, melissastar I see your point about things being hard to reach. It just seems such a shame not to use that space... So maybe I could put foodstuffs in the bottom shelf only, and more seasonal items in higher trays. Lisa_a pointed out that I will still have some space for pull-out pantry thingies in the laundry closet for even more food storage. I don't like shopping in bulk very much, grew up in Europe where that is not common and even with my bigger family, it's just not something I've been able to get used to. I use two 6' shelves right now, which I can still have with the W/D in there (I would just put in really wide shelves so items were right at the front and I wouldn't have to reach), and so the peninsula cabinet could act as a great storage space for things I don't need as often.

Lisa_a, the counter to the right of the mudroom sink will not have any cabinets underneath, so it will be like a "desk" with drawers under the counter. I can put our checkbook and envelopes in there, since the mudroom will be our new catch-all and mail area, and so I drew a chair there to remind the GC not to plan for the bottom cabs there. I can easily add 3" to the peninsula to make the overhang more comfortable, though. I forgot about that when drawing up the new plan.
I also want to say that the cabs on top of the counter to the right of the sink will NOT be 12" deep. I need to talk to the cab people to see about doing this, but I was wanting to have very shallow cabinets, 8"-9" deep, sitting on top of the counter on either side of the fridge to store my spice collection and kiddie glassware and mugs. So most of the counter will still be usable space. I also realized after I drew the layout, that the MW and TO shelves only needed to be about 16" deep, so it might be a neat side look ton have the cabinet unit around the fridge start at 8" deep on the counter, then 16" for the appliance shelves, and finally the full 24" over the fridge. I'll have to see if the cabinet company can do that.

Let's see, what else... Oh yes, the prep sink. Ah I HATE losing that beautiful 48" of prep space!!! That's tough, even with your very valid point about the range sticking out a bit and not wanting to be jammed up in it. For that one, I will need to mock it upon my counter for sure so I can mimic the movements.

You know, it is so funny to come across as someone who has a fixed idea about the way a kitchen should look. Because the thing is, I really don't get into kitchen trends, or magazines about renovating (maybe I should????). DH and my ideas have come 100% from what we've worked in and liked, what we hated and vow to avoid, and what we think would work and look best in our space, and for the way we live. Like the cooktop - the only thing I hate about it right now is having it in a main walkway, and not having an oven underneath. So moving it to a space NOBODY walks through casually, and making it a range, makes perfect sense to me as I do love seeing everyone and being a part of things while standing at the stove. Avoiding the big island comes from visiting my mom, who has one, and realizing that I would never use the far side of a great big hunk of counter! I hate having to walk around and around her island to work at it! And so on with most of my unorthodox ideas about my space. I really hope that by listening to all your ideas and incorporating the feedback that makes the sense to us, I will end up with the awesome kitchen of my dreams.

Thank you so much!

Sorry for chiming in late..I've been off-forum for quite a while because I was bored with literally every other thread about granite, so it's nice to see some other discussion.
Your title, of course, caught my eye, because I also have an unpopular bent-island-range layout, but I had quite a bit of help tweaking on this forum and appreciate the help, especially since as a result, I found Scherr cabinets to custom build for me.
Anyway, I've skimmed through this thread and I seem to have missed how exactly you're going to cook in this kitchen. The best source for my plxnning was "Kitchen Design with Cooking in Mind" by Don Silver and so some things I'm thinking off the top....
"Drop Zone" for the fridge...I didn't catch why you moved the prep sink from the end of the L, but that was a good thing because you need that spot to drop stuff out of the fridge. otherwise you'll be dropping it over the DW and then moving it again over to the prep area.
I think you'll be unhappy having the spices so far from your prep area and cooktop. Think about how many times you'll cross-cross while making spaghetti sauce.
You might make some adjustments to cabinets if you think about cooking and serving out a typical meal (I'm a big fan of "zones" vice "triangle" theory)...I'm looking at the layout and seeing a lot of cross-crossing. You'll also need a "serving out" spot and I don't know if that's little space to the right of the range will work...but if you put that back shelf top wide enough, that will work. Don't forget about a dirty dish spot for the return.
Another concern I have, which might be completely unfounded however, is that I've never seen a corner lazy Susan thing strong enough to handle dishes, unless they're plastic or melanine (BPA - free of course). Maybe there are strong ones and I've just never seen them, having not been looking at cabinets for four years now.
Good luck to you, in any case. I think you're doing just fine in this process, or I should say, typical waffling and re-designing from what I've seen

c9pilot made some very good points. All of us have idiosyncrasies in the way we use our kitchens - it's not one size fits all. However, there are givens in how kitchens work and guidelines that help kitchens function well that apply regardless of personal style. These weren't created by throwing darts at a dartboard. These were determined after studying how people use their kitchens. Sure you can ignore recommendations such as not providing adequate counter on each side of a sink or adding sufficient clearance around and between appliances, but doing so will mean you take many extra steps and work harder preparing a meal and cleaning up afterwards. Adding storage where it makes sense - spices near prep area or pantry goods all in one place, convenient to prep area - helps streamline function. Kitchens are the hardest working rooms in our house but few of us want to work harder in our kitchens.

Kitchens are about compromise, not just because of budgetary or space constraints but because sometimes contradictions arise when applying guidelines to your space. For instance, I suggested the prep sink at the end of the L-island because food prep generally goes from fridge to sink to prep to range. A sink at the end followed the flow. However, putting it there, as c9pilot pointed out, takes over valuable fridge landing space. The only way to know where you can compromise, though, is to learn more about the ins and outs of kitchen design and figure out which of those apply to the way you cook. For instance, it's not critical to me that my spices are near my cooktop because I follow mise en place practices (all ingredients pulled beforehand). I haven't read Don Silver's book but it sounds like one you might find helpful.

Did anyone point you towards the Sweeby Test and two other kitchen design articles written by forum members? Lots of good info for you. Hope it helps.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen design articles

I have been following this thread and just have a few questions. How far is it from your range to the fridge? It looks like a good distance - 8 - 10 feet? The benefit to the larger island was it moved you and all your work space/spices etc much closer reducing all the travel and crossing that will happen as it stands now. The other thing I am not quite getting is why you think the L shaped island will better direct people out of your work space than the square island. The square island has another side to it that will further define YOUR work space and hopefully keep the traffic through the main work areas to a minimum. The L shaped island has this vast open space to it where I see wasted space and again more steps to meal prep.

My other concern is referring to what someone also questioned and that was the upper cabinets coming down to the counter on the fridge wall. I can't visualize the jutting out of the toaster oven and microwave then cutting back in to an 8" cabinet - remember there will be a door here adding to the depth. Also - are you sure you have a shallow toaster oven and microwave (like 14-15") if you are going with a 16" shelf? There needs to be allowance for the cords and plugs for these appliances. Maybe you have an inspiration picture of this wall configuration that works for you - I just don't see it plus the loss of counter space beside the fridge and especially the sink is a real concern. How deep are you planning for the cabinets above the fridge to be?

As others have said, you have a good sized space to work with but I don't think you are there yet!

"Or whether the problem is really the GC or me"

It's the GC. if he isn't into detailed work, he really should get into another business.

you can help him out there - pass on using him.

Well, I decided to break up with my GC (yes, it reminds me of breaking up with a HS boyfriend! Just as nerve-wracking over something that, in the big scheme of things, is not a big deal!) and find a good KD. I thought I was a lot more prepared than I was and figure it's best to start all over now, than later with half a project underway. And I am hoping a good KD can see my space and see how we use it and explain why some ideas will work better than others. I am having a really hard time with that, because I still think y'all are crazy and not me *grin*.
Just so discouraged to be starting over when I thought by now, we'd be almost done... But, I know I am lucky to have had all of you show me the problems BEFORE work started! Thank you all so much!