Hi albertdc!

I just wanted to let you know that Renewal units are made from Andersen's exclusive Fibrex material that is a composite of wood and vinyl which has more strength than vinyl alone allowing for more glass area.

Did you know that Andersen Windows offers full-frame and insert replacement products which give you the option of a clad exterior/wood interior product? You should check out our website at andersenwindows.com. There is an entire section on replacement windows under the PRODUCTS tab. You can also location your nearest Andersen dealer if you have additional questions about any of our product.

I hope you find the information you are looking for!

More strength and more glass area?

What is the DP rating and VT rating on your window?

The vest VT rating I see out of what would have been a 2009-2010 Energy Star qualified double hung puts the VT at 0.47 with grids. I can think of at least 5 other vinyl double hungs that trump that number.

How is that more glass?

DP of 40 last time I checked. I can think of 30 vinyl double hungs with higher numbers.

How is that more strength?

If Fibrex is a superior material, what is the Andersen warranty on it?

10 years last I checked. How is that better?

And that's without even mentioning the pricing nor their sales pitch!!!

I work for Andersen in customer service... not here trying to sell windows.

Just want to make people aware that there is a difference between Andersen Windows and Renewal by Andersen, a subsidiary of Andersen.

It's regularly assumed that because Renewal is a 'replacement' window it is all that Andersen offers in replacement product, which is not the case.

Here is a link that might be useful: Andersen Windows

No way would I ever recommend RBA until the high-pressure, bold face lying and distortions and the Tin Man selling techniques stop. I do not believe in those tactics and maybe if RBA's sales started to dry up, that would give them the incentive to change.

The truth is that RBA is sawdust and vinyl melted together. 60% of the window is vinyl.

....banging head against wall.... I guess I asked for it....
"AndersenWindows" - I am well aware of the differences, thank you. Wood windows wouldn't look right in this house - "lipstick on a pig" comes to mind, and would not be worth the cost.

websnooper, skydawggy, and millworkman - you guys obviously do not like the Renewal product. Are you happy with the Marvin Integrity line?

Comparing Integriy to Infinity - I had both quoted by the Marvin dealer and the total job with the Infinity came about 20% higher (the window is about 25% more, but of course the labor costs (install + stucco work) remain the same). Do you think the additional price is worth it from a quality/functional standpoint (not counting aesthetics)?

from my perspective it comes down to how much you want to have to remove and take apart during construction. If you don't want to touch siding or interior sheetrock and trim and your opening are sound and in good condition run the Infinity's if not go the new construction route.

We remodeled our house 20 years ago and used all Marvin Integrity Wood-Ultrex Windows. We built a 1200 square foot outbuilding for ourselves recently and we again chose Marvin Integrity Wood Ultrex for the project. We did use an all Ultrex Integrity window in the shower.

We have installed Marvin Wood Windows, Clad Windows and Integrity Windows in many clients houses over the past 35 years and never had any regrets. Marvin Service is great; if there is a problem they fix it. The finish on the Ultrex components is extremely durable and weathers well. If it is damaged it can be repaired.

There is really no comparison between Andersen's Fibrex and Marvin's Ultrex. Ultrex is fiberglass; it is strong. Fibrex is relatively weak.

Would you rather traverse a rough sea channel in a boat made of sturdy fiberglass or would you choose a vinyl raft? Or would you trust your life to a boat made out of a vinyl wood fiber composite? That is what Fibrex is.

We do not go the Infinity route,; we prefer to install windows ourselves and keep control of the entire remodeling process.

They are comparable in the real world.

The material can be made to be quite strong, more than strong enough for Windows .Just like most products the design trumps the material.

As someone who prefers the Marvin product and sells it occasionally, I have to say that Todd is correct in that they are relatively comparable. Neither is an elite performer, but both are generally well built and look nice. Both also typically come with a significant price tag. The comments from Kimber sound like they are right out of the Marvin sales indoctrination center... again, good product, but lets pump the brakes a little on the propaganda machine... Fiberglass may be a better choice when " traversing a rough sea" lol, but there are other materials that pretty darn good windows are made out of.

I do love the boat analogy...

lol.... I should add that the very existence of fibrex as a window material is its own sales gimmick IMHO, so I suppose all is fair in this battle of sales BS

Fibrex was used in other Andersen product lines when introduced not just the Renewal line and it’s use has been expanding ever since.Surprise that Marvin came out with there miracle product shortly afterwards and employed similar marketing strategies .

Ultrex is stronger, allowing for more glass area and opening area in the same size window. Fibrex frames tend to look fat and clunky, similar to vinyl. The other major Integrity feature that our customers like is the solid wood interior, it looks like a real wood window not a thin veneer on plastic.

DP/PG ratings are not solely based upon the actual physical strength of the window or the material it is made of. It can have an effect upon it of course, but more important things will decide this .

That’s a very clandestine response todd. I’m intrigued. Please elaborate...

imo, dp is the most accurate test/rating that speaks to the strength of a window assembly. Thats a pretty widely held opinion, but again, I’m interested to

hear your take

PG ratings do measure specific structural ratings to a point. They also measure other things to a point that are irrelevent to structural or “strength “ of the window. You could have a window made of solidi titaniim that may have a PG of 20 and you could have a Silverline With a PG of 50 (which they do have) . Which would be the “stronger” Window? That would depend on how you measure strength or want spin the details. Fibrex or plastic are more than strong enough as a basem material to meet the needs if most semiv educated consumers, for the uniformed perhaps only Iltrex will do.

I was an Andersen junkie but I must admit my new construction has Marvin Integrity

To todd's question above, the stronger window in that comparison would likely be the window with the stronger glass. Lets assume that your analogy was testing a picture window to further remove variability. In that case the definitively stronger window would be whichever one had the better glass in it.

PG, just like DP, is a function of how the window can resist pressurization of rain and wind and will only be assigned the lesser of the numbers as it pertains to the testing.

Copied from Oberon:

The DP rating of a window or door is based on laboratory pressure testing in pounds per square foot or psf.

Air, water, structural is a three part test that determines much about a window's overall performance. Air infiltration is the first phase, water penetration is next, and structural is the third part of the test.

Windows are tested for air infiltration simulating a 25mph wind or a 1.56PSF pressure load - air infiltration is treated separately from both water infiltration and structural and it is independent of the design pressure of the unit. Said again - the air infiltration rate in a window is not based on the design pressure rating of the unit.

Both water penetration and structural testing, on the other hand, are based on the window DP rating. Water infiltration is tested at 15% of the design pressure and structural is tested at 150% of DP rating.

What this means is that a window with a DP30 is tested for water infiltration at 4.5psf (15% of 30psf) while a window with a DP40 is tested at 6psf (15% of 40).

A window with a DP30 rating should be able to keep out rain when its driven by 42mph winds and a window with a DP40 should be able to keep out rain when driven by 49mph winds...so while water infiltration is DP related - and air infiltration is not - the nature of air and water infiltration is different.

The structural rating of a window is as much about the glass as it is about the frame and sash system. In order to get a higher DP rating the window manufacturer has to consider the thickness and possible heat-strengthening (or tempering) of the glass as well as the use of higher-end hardware and good quality sealants in the frame and sash system. But, interestingly, there is nothing in the structural rating that specifically requires that the unit be air-tight.

A window can leak air like a sieve and still achieve an excellent DP rating. Likewise a window that is sealed tightly can have a lower DP rating but excellent air infiltration numbers. Obviously there are also many units that have both excellent air infiltration numbers and a satisfactory DP rating (relating to both structural strength and water infiltration).

Simply stated, the relationship between DP and windspeed is -- "the ratios of the design pressures in psf are the square of the ratios of the wind-speeds in mph".

A window with a DP30 is rated to a pressure level equivalent to a 110mph windspeed, but it is tested (for structural) at a pressure equivalent to 164mph.

A window with a DP40 is rated to a pressure level equivalent to a 127mph windspeed, but it is tested (for structural) at a pressure equivalent to 190mph.

Well aware of the PG testing parameters and youre post helps clarify my point, My point is what Materials or window is stronger will depend on how you test it and that even though one material may be “stronger” , a weaker. material if engineered correctly Will be more than strong enough. Since car and boat analogies seem popular I will use those. My wife Drives 2011 Tundra crewmax with a crash test rating of 4 Star, a 2019 Honda Civic has a 5 Star. Is one care stronger? Which would you want to be in during a crash? If they crashed Into each other what vehicle Would you want to be in?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FWB1-oCOxMU Here is a very scientific and unbiased Video sure to change some opinions!

“... My point is what Materials or window is stronger will depend on how you test it and that even though one material may be “stronger” , a weaker. material if engineered correctly Will be more than strong enough...” -todd

Yes, this is true. Thanks for supporting the point that I made, even though you initially seemed to disagree. Glad that we agree.

You I like to argue even when we agree.

This is a little more scientific, perhaps irrelevant but pretty interesting.

https://www.uni-bell.org/Portals/0/ResourceFile/pvc-vs-fiberglass-frp-municipal-pressure-pipe.pdf

I would still like to know what vehicle you would want to be in If crashed into each other, the 5 Star civic or 4 Star Tundra.

4 Star Tundra. F=MA at the end of the day.

what if it was an offset crash into a a wood telephone pole and not one of those cheap fiberglass ones?

Hmm

I do not post much and posted my first comment from my personal account as Kimber.

To clarify:

We are a professional remodeling company and as a contractor, have been installing windows for over 35 years. We want to provide our customers with a high quality product and we need to be sure that the Window Supplier and Manufacturer will stand behind their windows and provide prompt service when necessary. We have the most confidence in Marvin and Integrity Windows and use them on most of our projects and have installed them in our own house, shop and office.

I sell the infinity window by Marvin. Ill

say this, our casement window operates much easier than any Anderson or pella casement window. Expansion rate compared to glass is 87 percent less than most vinyl windows, and 75 percent less than rba. We all use the same glass from cardinal glass so their isn’t a difference at all. Another thing I’ll mention is integrity vs infinity. Integrity is for all intensive purposes a new construction window. It’s cheaper, and aesthetically you can tell it’s cheaper too. functionality is pretty much the same. One downfall of integrity vs infinity is the real wood interior. wood has a tendency to rot, mold, and discolor over time. Infinity by Marvin uses something called everwood that is inorganic. Everwood can be stained or painted to match any existing wood work in the home.

We have had Integrity, now labeled Marvin Elevate, with the real, solid wood interior for about 20 years in our own house. We have not experienced mold rot or any discoloration, nor would I expect to. The exterior of the windows is Marvin Ultrex which is extremely durable, rot proof and hail resistant.

Professionally installed windows should never be subjected to moisture intrusion causing problems at the interior. We are building professionals and our carpenters are trained in the correct procedures for weather sealing and insulating our window and door installations

The Integrity/Elevate is definitely not of "cheaper" quality and most customers find it more aesthetically pleasing than competitors' windows.

https://www.marvin.com/products/collections/elevate

We install Integrity/Elevate windows in remodels, new construction, and as replacement. We do install all Ultrex fiberglass in shower. Many of our customers appreciate the high windows for our jobs. The Integrity/Elevate windows will work with all Classic, , Craftsman, or Contemporary interior trim styles in a way that all fiberglass or vinyl will not.

For modern style installations we can use The All-Ultrex Marvin Essential series or the new Marvin Modern Series with Ultrex exterior and Aluminum interiors. https://www.marvin.com/products/collections/essential

https://www.marvin.com/en/products/collections/signature/modern

integrity, now elevate and the infinity window are very similar, but aesthetically there is a visible difference between the two. I’ll post a picture side by side when I get to the office later.

As far as moisture goes, depending on the homeowners humidity level on the inside of their home we see moisture on new and old windows. We’re a Minnesota based company and moisture, even with a correct install is a problem homeowners face.

Integrity as far as I understand is a fiberglass window. If you look at the cost of an integrity vs an infinity window there Is a clear difference. Same material, different look. Ones cheaper ones more expensive.

As a whole, I personally like the Marvin windows better than any Anderson, Pella, or vinyl window. One thing to mention tho is the difference between the Infinity Window by Marvin and the Elevate/Essential window by Marvin.

oohhh, competing marvin dealers arguing to make this thread their own commmercial, nice!

FWIW, most wood interiors get damaged due to condensation and neglect of the finish. Marvin’s wood interior is no more immune to that than any other window. Nice window tho.

Just to be clear- our company is not a Marvin Dealer. We are a licensed building contractor that offers many kinds of construction services, from new construction, additions, remodeling, and small projects like window or door replacement. We or our customers purchase windows through a local dealer. We are in Colorado where it is very dry, but some of our customer use humidifiers and can get condensation on interior glass. This can affect woodwork that is not properly maintained. A high quality varnish or paint can easily last 20 years.

Infinity dealers include installation in their price, operating with a business model similar to Andersen Renewal except that Marvin Infinity dealers are more independent than Renewal and often provide other services such as siding, roofing, and a wide range of other business services.

Many general contractors prefer to keep the window installation in house so we shy away from dealers who perform installation. We have had some bad experiences with Andersen Renewal on some jobs-they kept mis-ordering windows and did not complete their installations on schedule. Our local Marvin Infinity Dealer/Installer has a great reputation and is sure to be much more organized than the Andersen Renewal outfit.

Back to the question of Quality-

Marvin Signature is the Top of the Line, with more options and bells and whistles available than any of the other lines. They come in wood, wood clad with aluminum, or the Modern line which is Ultrex Fiberglass with aluminum interior. They are a the best wood window made in the USA and the best fit for the historic renovation and restoration jobs that we do.

Loewen Windows, made in Canada, are the only ones we have ever installed that are of similar quality.

Marvin Elevate, formerly Integrity, is a Ultrex Fiberglass window with wood interiors. Elevate offers many options, awnings, casements, double hungs, sliders, trapezoids, etc. in a wide variety of colors and glass configurations including SDL. This is a very high quality window with a life expectancy as high as any window on the market today.

Marvin Essential is and All-Ultrex window that has fewer options but are made to order and ship very quickly, They are a great window, very high quality and will out live and out-perform any Vinyl Window on the market

Infinity Windows by Marvin are of as equally high quality as any other Marvin product, and have a great range of design options colors and glass configurations. Infinity dealers choose to work with Marvin, a company that stands behind their products, offers great dealer and customer support and great warranties.

I am not a schill for Marvin, I do have extensive experience, having first installed Marvin Wood windows with true divided lites and storm panels in 1985- those windows are still working.

We started installing Marvin Integrity for ourselves, our friends, and our customers

I have been to the Marvin Factory in Warroad Minnesota for training and we have sent 2 of our carpenters there as well. I have seen how meticulous they are and witnessed windows undergoing arduous testing against wind and rain. I have also received great service whenever there was a problem with a unit we installed. We choose to use Marvin because we care about our customers, we care about our reputation, we care about our work.

Stick to installing bath vanities kiva, leave windows for the window guys. You took a lot of words to say ”I don’t know Jack about Windows”.

One statement: the marvin essentials “will out live and out perform any vinyl window on the market” says all we need to know about your window chops. Are you aware that windows actually have ratings for performance? Are you further aware that the marvin essentials actually sucks in literally every single metric compared to a whole cluster of vinyl windows? It actually not a bad window, but don’t give bad information to people that know what they are talking about when you do not fit that description

Vinyl might perform well when new, but they sure don't have a great lifetime, unless you keep them out of the sun.

That's not accurate Kiva. Quality vinyl windows perform well in the harshest of climates from here in WI, through FL, AZ, TX, and everywhere in between. Quality is the operative word here, as unfortunately there are quite a few poor vinyl windows made with nothing more than a low price in mind.

We offer Marvin windows as well as a nice vinyl option or two, and the proper choice depends on the goals and needs of the customer and their home. For those folks that are more "performance-minded", we find the vinyl option to be the better fit.

Sorry, I should not be so judgemental. We end up replacing a lot of vinyl windows, but they could all just be the lower quality ones. We replace a lot of lower quality wood windows too and that does not make all wood windows bad.

Bingo. The quality of the product has EVERYTHING to do with the life-cycle projections.

+1.... There are great and terrible examples of each material, no doubt about that.