I try to set them about 18-20in out from the wall and stress to the homeowner that they will need to have undercabinet lights to remove the shadows caused by the can lights. That's after I try to talk them out of using can lights in a kitchen in the first place.

I do anywhere from 18"-24" out. I like then near the edge of the base cabinets. And NO, they DO NOT cast shadows that far out. You do not typically stand with your hips pressed to the counter top.
Also, there is little need for UC lighting with this placement. Of course it would not hurt, but it is far from necessary.

I like recessed lighting in kitchens. My customers do as well.

I'm with petey. I like cans for task-lighting, and place them about 25" out from the wall, on center; ie, approximately even with the counter-top edge. Under-cabs? Need them or not, everybody wants 'em.

The closest of mine are 21.5 inches on center from the wall. They light 16 inches of counter but leave the inner 8 inches in shadow. Adjust to your desire from there!

IMO recessed cans are seriously overused. 4' Fluorescent fixtures do a MUCH better job of lighting a kitchen. However, most people would rather have recessed lights like all the "house beautiful" magazines show, even though they cost more to install, cost more to operate, and create more shadows. Such is the power of advertising.

"Such is the power of advertising."

No. Not so much.

Properly installed recessed lighting is a very good form of light. Contrary to some folk's OPINIONS.

Pete, I am not going to argue with you. You are right that my views are opinions, but I have good reasons for them and they are based on my experience. I have not found that cans provide what I consider really good light for task lighting or general illumination. They definitely can't do so at what I consider a reasonable operating cost.

A socket wrench is a pretty good tool for tightening a bolt. You can also drive a nail with it, but not very well. Similarly, recessed lights are great for highlighting art or architectural features, but I don't find them to be a very good tool for general lighting.

Nevertheless, I realize that many people want them for that purpose and will pay for them. Their choice and yours. More power to them. ;-)

I am not looking for an argument. This has been hashed out many times on forums like this.
It is just sometimes annoying when folks give all these reasons for not using something based on opinion.
I know full well my feelings on this are also opinion. I DO however base my opinion on my direct experience just as you say you do.

In my experience, a center mounted fluorescent can give very good light. Problem is the fixtures are terribly UGLY. Yes, you can find some that are not too bad, and lamps are getting better every day, but from my experience folks are not usually happy with a huge white box on their ceiling. They seem happier with several black/white holes in the ceiling.
Also, having a center mounted fixture offers the same problems as any other lighting; shadows. Depending on the room layout this is sometimes not as bad, other times worse.
Will adding UC lighting work, absolutely. In almost every case. Is is necessary, only in some cases IMO.

All in all it is ultimately up to the consumer. I make money either way. I probably make more with a center light and UC lights than recessed alone, so cost is not an issue as far as I am concerned.
I give my customers options and opinions. I DO NOT try to sway them in one direction or the other.

My ultimate point is we should keep this as open as possible.
Comments like "However, most people would rather have recessed lights like all the "house beautiful" magazines show, even though they cost more to install, cost more to operate, and create more shadows. Such is the power of advertising." don't do much to help folks.
We can all give our opinions on topics such as this, that does not make other's opinions wrong.

Thanks for everyone's response. I had been going 18" but I was considering changing to 24", which I did today in light of the comments. Also, if a customer says " I want recessed lights" I say ok, how many and where? If they say "Do you think I should have recessed lights?" then I will explain the pros and cons of the different lighting options and let them decide.

Hmm, well opinions are one thing, fashion is another. Right now, recessed lights are fashionable, and have been for a while, as reflected in the design and home magazines. As Petey points out, recessed lights are merely holes in the ceiling, gussied up with fancy trim. I don't find anything attractive about that, and never have, and frankly think the only reason they are so popular is that they are pushed so hard by the lighting companies and lighting designers, who see the profit potential in having to install 4 or so fixtures, at $250 a pop, to replace two $100 T8 fluorescent fixtures.

There are some fluorescent fixtures out there that are at least as attractive as any can (see below for instance), but I do usually end up making custom light boxes using sold wood, like red oak or maple, and smoked glass. My customers love them. Add on the fact that they are saving huge amounts of energy and money per year, and it's hard for me to see why anyone would want recessed lights if they didn't have to. So I'm with David in that I am of the opinion that many homeowners (as well as designers and contractors) fall victim to the hype of fashion, and end up spending far more than they have to, for a bunch of holes in the ceiling.

I'm also with joe in that I will install what they want, though I make my pitch for T8 and custom light boxes, even if they don't ask.

Here is a link that might be useful: decent T8 fixture

Could a fluorescent blub be used in a can light, thus getting the best of both worlds?

tom: yes. You can get a compact fluorescent that will fit just about any can.

If you are getting $250 a pop for a recessed fixture I want to work in your area. On the other hand if your only charging $100 a pop for any 4 light T8 fixture you won't be my comp very long.
Truthfully though, has anyone ever seen a really nice high end kitchen that didn't have can lights????

Maybe we should trade places. Remodeling work is starting to slow down here anyway, after 4 years of non-stop. Back to industrial soon for me.

I was talking purchase price, not installed. New high-end closed cans (in contact with insulation) easily go over $200, and that seems to be all the rage for the lighting designers out here (check the link). And that doesn't even include the trim. You can buy open cans for much less, but they are huge energy wasters.

I buy TWO-light plain T8 fixtures for installation in custom light boxes. I can get those for about $90 each, including ballast. I also use T16s, for a little more. Maybe you need a new supplier? I charge about $250-$300 for a 2-light fixture in a custom box, which I can crank out in about 20 minutes with the jigs I have set up; figure another 60-90 minutes for install.

And yes, I've seen plenty of high-end houses without a single recessed can. Mine, for instance; with cathedral ceilings covered in red cedar T&G, a can would be a crime. Also, the three architects I work with, my two partners, the designer I work with most, and most of our recent clients all have pretty high-end kitchens without a single can.

We're all can haters. They're just ugly as sin, with no redeeming values other than convenience for a lazy lighting designer.

Resistance is futile. Soon you will see the light.....

And, by the way, it's "your're" not "your." (grammar cop)

Here is a link that might be useful: Typical high-end can

Sorry, that is NOT "typical" "high end" recessed light. If you tried to sell me that can for $231 I'd laugh in your face.
To me the can itself looks no different than those garbage Emerald cans you get at Lowes.
All that thing is is a cheap can with a fancy shower trim, and it's also a NON-IC.
Perhaps you provided the wrong link?

You're right, wrong link. That's a wet location can. Here's a more typical IC can I see spec'd for new construction around here. And that's still without bulb or trim, which can easily add another $50.

Since I hate them so much, and don't do new residential construction, I hardly ever have to buy one (and I have a buyer who does that for us when needed). But I still say that most IC cans out here sell for at least $200.

Got a link for what you use? I'm always open to suggestions.

Here is a link that might be useful: right link

If I'm reading that description correctly, that $202 price appears to be for a 4-pack. Still pricey, but not as bad as it sounded.

IN MY OPINION can lights are ugly and way overused. Sorta reminds me of what a ceiling would look like after a few shotgun blasts.

I pretty much hate these "I prefer my opinion over your opinion and here's why" Q & A posts. I prefer to stick w/ basic info and facts when I think I can help. But, I couldn't help myself on this one.

That being said, I think another reason cans are more popular is that ceilings are getting higher in homes - its rare to find new construction w/ 8' ceilings anymore. Nine, ten, or even higher are gaining popularity. Higher ceilings reduce one of the negatives of can lights by expanding the size of its light space pattern leaving fewer shadows.

BTW, my kitchen cans are centered ~22" from the wall. Most of my lower cabinets are drawers and this lights them up well in addition to the edge of the counter space. I also have UC lights as well, but they see limited use.

mea culpa, mea culpa. My buyer tells me that most of the IC cans we've put in (when forced) are in the $50-$75 range. The $200 cans I was remembering were very specialized, specified by a lighting designer to solve a very specific problem. I still hate them with a passion, though: they look bad, perform poorly, and eat up energy like there's no tomorrow.

And as far as "opinions" go, I'd guess that easily half the postings here ask for opinions, including this one. People are free to give their's, and others are free to critique it, as well as offer their own. That's how we learn. Anyone who is not interested in anyone else's opinion is not interested in learning. And that's a shame.

I encourage my crew to express their opinions, because in my experience the collaborative approach almost always results in a better product or project. It also helps retain quality workers, as they feel more involved and valued in the job. Occasionally I get frustrated with too much discussion, but I know that the crew and the project benefit more from this approach than the "it's my way or the highway" approach.

But that's just my opinion....

Some of what all of us post is opinion. But at least part of what you just wrote is fact, not opinion.

Opinion : "I hate them," "they look bad."

Fact : "eat up energy like there's no tomorrow."

Could be either : "perform poorly" (in part depends on installation).

"Eat up energy like there's no tomorrow" is a bit of hyperbole, but I don't see how anybody can argue that can lights are efficient energy users. It takes too many of them (and too many Watts) to do a decent job of lighting up a room. A little simple math is all it takes to demonstrate this - add up all the Watts!

I never mean to denigrate or offend anybody, and I apologize if I have. I usually say what I think, though I try to say it gently and respectfully, and I try to support it with evidence. I expect that if I make errors of fact someone will correct them. Contrary opinions are always welcome and sometimes I do change my mind.

I like the lively but respectful discussion that prevails here. We have some incredibly knowledgeable participants and I learn something every day.

"Contrary opinions are always welcome and sometimes I do change my mind. "

Think you'll ever change your mind about fluourescents? :)

> Think you'll ever change your mind about fluourescents? :)

Possibly. When something more efficient and cost-effective comes along, and also delivers equal or better light quality, that's where I'll look. Someday it might be LED, but I think it'll be many years before all of those qualifications are in place for LEDs.

Or, maybe someday some researcher will prove conclusively that fluorescent lights give you Alzheimer's Disease or something of the sort. Not too likely, but ya never know.

It is interesting to note that some countries including California have plans to ban IC bulbs. What we are seeing are high vaulting ceilings with lots of IC cans and folks crying the blues about $600 and up monthly electric bills. We recently did a $3.5 million home from the ground up. There are 75 cans in the place and some of the ceilings are so high we had to bring in a sissor jack to install the cans in some areas. Now, those IC floods burn out and the guy is going to have fits replacing them. If we are called in to replace them we are talking several hundred dollars including the rental of a sissor jack.

Now, we make a lot of money doing what people want even if we think they are total idiots. Why would any one want eight 6" cans in a 15' X 18' master bedroom? Do I think cans are over used? Yes. Do we try to talk them out of using them? Not in this life.

California is now a country? I must have slept though that one.

"California is now a country?" IMO it is!
At least I wish it would secede.