Should add: The house was built in 1967 and the switches are wiring are original.

Ellie

Sounds like a 3 way switch the way you have described the wiring, except foior the fact you say the are 4 terminals, but only mention 3 connections to terminals' Look at these 2 pages, which talk about 3 and 4 way switches.

http://www.electri-pedia.com/index_files/3way.htm

http://www.electri-pedia.com/index_files/4way.htm
let me know from those diagrams which switch you have

Here is a link that might be useful: How to Wire Your Own House

Thank you. Our switch doesn't seem to match any of those configurations. I didn't mention the 4th terminal because there was no wire there. It was empty. Upper right had white & black twisted together. The switch has 2 switches on it, I believe called "combination" switch and single pole, but only one of them worked for the fan. There are no other switches for that fan. I have made a picture, here. I assume all black are hot, white neutral, bare is ground and is grounded to the box in all of our boxes that I've opened up so far.

This is what I tried that failed (with a single pole).

Thanks,
Ellie

At first glance, I was thinking just what you were, Ellie. I thought maybe the black and white twisted together were completing a switch loop (i.e., in effect decomissioning one half of the switch and making whatever is connected "always on").

This is a weird situation to be sure. Do you have a test light available to tell which wire(s) is/are hot with everything disconnected?

Here's my best guess as to what may be going on:

The hot feed to the whole thing is probably the WHITE! wire, although it could also be the black tied to it.

Why? Because if that pair twisted together was, in fact, once a switch loop, the convention is usually to feed with the white and return power on the black.

That might explain why the two wires were put under a terminal post instead of simply being wirenutted together--because without that feed, the other circuit gets no power.

Now here's another thing to observe closely: If you look closely at your first picture, you'll see that the two brass screws are actually connect by a removable metal tab. That allows one side to feed power for both switches. When the tabs are removed, the two switches work independently of each other. Knowing the status of the tabs and relationship to the wires on the original dual switch would be helpful in diagnosing this.

Oh, and one other question: Did the switch that was working actually feed two things (as in two lights)? If so, then each of the lone blacks may feed a different fixture.

If that's the case, then your solution may be this:

Make two 6" black pigtails. Wirenut one to the black/white pair and the other to the two disconnected blacks. Then wire both pigtails to your new switch.

HOWEVER, before trying that, it'd be better if you'd report back with a few more facts, especially the results from testing which wires are normally hot. Also, this scenario of mine is all wet if the switch does not feed two fixtures.

Any other details about what else is in that box (e.g., neutrals tied together, etc.) would be helpful.

Did the switch that was working actually feed two things (as in two lights)?

Sorry, my bad. You said fan. But the question stands: could the switch be powering a light and fan or something else other than the fan?

And I neglected to mention your fine pictures. That's a huge help!

The switch does not appear to feed two fixtures. Only one works, or at least does something obvious, toggle the fan. The other does nothing apparent. I have a non-contact electric detector thing (I'm sure it goes by another name) that I bought for safety to triple check that all was turned off in the boxes before I work on them. I will disconnect everything, turn the breaker back on and report back which one is hot. My young "reverse engineer" son ran off with the switch after I removed it and I will report on the tab situation also when I find the switch, haha.

Thank you,
Ellie

I can't find the old one yet but I checked the new combo switch that I bought (when I was thinking that both switches did something) which I think is a fairly safe bet that it's a direct replacement electrically speaking. On the left side it is in fact connected by a tab, and on the right side the terminals are widely spaced and not connected. In this case the right and left being the same as in the first picture.

Thanks,
Ellie

Ok. The white and black (actually gray, didn't see that before, it is a dark gray if that makes any difference) are NOT hot. It's one of the lower black wires. The other black wire is also NOT hot.

Ellie

At this point, I'll admit to being puzzled. From what info you've given, I'd have expected your rewire (Pic #2) to work--it was a good first tack, IMO. But then, it looks as though you walked into a situation that was miswired before you touched anything, so I guess any "normal" assumption needs to be questioned.

It would appear that the black wire to the left in the wiring you initially found (Pic #1) is the "always hot" feed and, since the tab was intact, it powered both halves of the switch. The upper switch "fed" switched power to the black/white pair (!??!??!!) and the lower switch fed whatever the other black wire goes to.

So, before you removed it, which half of the combo switch worked to turn the fan off/on? The upper or the lower?

If it was the upper (i.e., wired to the black/white-gray pair), I can think of another hypothesis that might be worth pursuing.

You're sure that since you unwired the old switch, there's nothing else out or order now, right? (Think receptacle or something else you didn't expect to be switched.)

Also, when you study which way the cables head as they exit the box, does that provide any clues as to where the various cables go? For example, does one come from underneath while the other heads in the rough direction of the fan? And that black wire we can't seem to relate to anything: In what direction does that appear to head (if you can tell)?

Scratching head...

What Ellie doesn't realize and we can't tell based on her stock pictures, is that most likely two screws on the left side of the tandem switch are connected together. Note you can even see the little break away tab in the stock picture.

She didn't indicate which of the switches was the functioning one, the top or the bottom.

Okay... to get it to WORK, without understanding it:

The black and white wires that were originally connected to the same terminal: Keep them connected to each other, but add a third wire - a 'pigtail' - which goes to one end of your new switch. The black wire that was originally on the left side goes to the other end of the new switch.

Now, trying to understand what's there... are these wires in conduit, or are they part of cables? If there's no conduit, then where are the missing two white wires?

For the record, I looked at a situation almost exactly like this recently, and it was someone's poor attempt to graft onto existing knob-and-tube... I don't know as K&T was in use in 1967, however.

"What Ellie doesn't realize and we can't tell based on her stock pictures, is that most likely two screws on the left side of the tandem switch are connected together. Note you can even see the little break away tab in the stock picture."

Ron: She does know that. She already confirmed that in her post of Sun, Jun 7, 09 at 12:58:

"On the left side it is in fact connected by a tab, and on the right side the terminals are widely spaced and not connected."

"She didn't indicate which of the switches was the functioning one, the top or the bottom."

Right, and I agree that's significant. It's why the question is at the top of the list in her current homework assignment.

****

"The black and white wires that were originally connected to the same terminal: Keep them connected to each other, but add a third wire - a 'pigtail' - which goes to one end of your new switch. The black wire that was originally on the left side goes to the other end of the new switch.

Pharkus: I'm inclined to agree that that would very likely "work", especially if it was the upper half of the switch that used to control the fan. But that's why I'm waiting for confirmation of that fact. It's possible that the fan replaced a two-function fixture (e.g., light/fan combo) and that might explain why it would have needed two switched loads on a black/white cable.

"to get it to WORK, without understanding it..."

Uh, it might be a difference in philosophies, but I'd rather understand more before putting a hot power to a combined white/black. (Yeah, even if that's the way it was wired before. Keep in mind that whoever put the two wires on a single post wasn't exactly a code jockey.)

If one of them isn't needed to power the fan (something we can confirm by testing), then I, for one, would rather not energize both just because it might be the fastest way to get it to work without understanding it. YMMV.

I'd also like to inquire more about that other black wire before capping it off and leaving it out of the equation. If it actually was controlling something, then this whole exercise will put something out of commission somewhere. (That, in part, is behind the suggestion that she look at which way the cables head out of the box and re-verify that there is nothing else out of order.)

Jes' sayin...

Sometimes I swear this forum forgets things. Multiple times I've come on here, read something, responded to it, been told it wasn't there, and then been unable to find it again.

I could almost swear there was a post in this thread where someone - the OP I presume - indicated that the black/white combo tested hot.

It's not a difference in philosophies - or at least not as much as you think, although there are definitely some differences. I, personally, would not hook it up without understanding it - because I, personally, have a touch of OCD and insist upon knowing where every wire in my house is - and if something doesn't make sense and isn't "right", I'll stop at nothing to fix it. In doing so, I've developed a reputation as an alarmist. I live in redneckville, where a fuse box with no cover loosely tacked onto a pole in the back yard with a roofing nail doesn't get anybody's attention. I'm that annoying guy that insists upon fixing things that aren't broke.

And sometimes nobody really cares what color the wires are or what used to be there, they just want their !@#$ing fan to work. After 13 followups where NOBODY was kind enough to just answer the original freakin' question, I thought it high time to do so.

I am still interested in figuring out what's going on there - I just think it's the OP's decision what his/her priority is, not ours.

As far as the other wire: Assuming the bridge is on the left (again, I'm pretty sure there's a post saying it is), and assuming the top switch is the one that did something, the bottom black wire is connected only to the non-functioning switch, which, per the mere existance of this thread, is apparently not hooked to anything.

Hey, Mike, chill a bit, will ya? We live in the same rural redneckville part of Maine, remember?

I could almost swear there was a post in this thread where someone - the OP I presume - indicated that the black/white combo tested hot.

Uh, well, dunno about that, but I was relying on this post on Sun, Jun 7, 09 at 13:08:

"Ok. The white and black (actually gray, didn't see that before, it is a dark gray if that makes any difference) are NOT hot. It's one of the lower black wires. The other black wire is also NOT hot.

I probably should leave it at that, but I can't resist responding to this:

"After 13 followups where NOBODY was kind enough to just answer the original freakin' question, I thought it high time to do so."

Kind enough? Well, maybe you should have gotten here first and solved the problem on the basis of the facts in the first frame of the thread. Pity that!

Hey, big guy, about what point in the thread did you have your revelation? Was it after a couple of questions were asked and answered? (Maybe it is the mysterious mystery post that has disappeared.)

Yeah, there's a difference in philosophy going on here--ain't no doubt about it. Ya think I'm getting my jollies by asking Nellie more questions instead of shooting from the hip?

Yeah, right. You can be the kind angel of mercy and I'll be the @$$hole, OK?

Nellie: Sorry about this. Ignore it, please.

I'm guessing that someone replaced a fan/light combo
unit with a fan only. I would look in the fan connection
box for an extra black wire. I repeat, this is just
a guess.

Thank you for your patience and questions, terribletom. I appreciate it very much. I have the attention span of a gnat and frequently forget things. While rewiring this house I have to either replace immediately so I don't forget where things go (and even then sometimes I do 15 seconds in and I have to go look it up). I am trying to learn to keep a notepad with me but my brain really is against me. I guess they call it "adult ADD" thought I have heard people refer to it as CRS. :) Anyway, again thanks for your patience and asking me to go find things out and do things that really probably are quite obvious to anyone else, as some have felt free to point out.

Back to the issue:
I haven't connected the old switch (I found it!) back up to determine which side controlled the fan (can't remember, I THINK it was the top one but I am only 60% sure of that) but I will do that as soon as I get the chance. Right now my son is napping on my lap and I'm inclined to leave him be. :)

I may be forgetful, very forgetful yes, probably strongly ADD if you want a label on it yes, but I greatly prefer to understand a thing rather than just have it mysteriously work. I want it to work, sure, but I want to know WHY so that I KNOW it isn't wired wrong and won't start a fire in the wall or shock anybody or run up our usage or anything else untoward. I am keeping notes as I go along here.

The whole thing is on a circuit for "bathroom heaters and fans" (these people were huge fans of ceiling heat, as evidenced by cracking and spalling ceiling plaster everywhere..). Is it possible that the other black is a chain going to the other bathrooms ceiling heater? I can test that I guess by turning the circuit on with the wires unconnected at the box in question to see if it is hot in the other bathroom. I am certain the apparently-useless side of the switch does not go to any other outlet or other switch though, because of the circuit it is on and all the replacing I've done so far, which has been most everything nearby. And I'm pretty sure this house is not K&T as there is fiberglass in the exterior walls and attic.

I can pull all wires out of the box (there are coiled up whites in there I believe that are just wrapped on the end) and take a picture before/after.

Ellie

Ok, I guess we scratch everything I've said because I really DO have CRS disease. Geez, me. Ok. I found the old switch and looked at the terminal screws and apparently I was wrong about how it was wired. Apparently. I didn't hook it up because the old unit had been banged around with loose connection plates and broken plastic. So I'm going by the terminal screw height (the highest screw probably being the one that had the twisted wire under). Does this make any more sense?

Now my reverse engineer son did get it but he is also 17 months old and is unlikely he messed with the terminal screws much as they don't move easily. I think he just banged it on the floor and forgot about it.

I couldn't get a good picture so I studied the box a while and this is what I came up with:

I'm scratching my head.

Thanks again,
Ellie

"I am trying to learn to keep a notepad with me but my brain really is against me. I guess they call it "adult ADD" thought I have heard people refer to it as CRS. :)"

Hey, tell me about it, Nellie. Each year my own case of "CRS" gets worse! :-)

And please don't apologize for your graphics. As things go here in this forum, they're award-worthy--a great help.

"Does this make any more sense?"

Yep, sure does! It makes a lot more sense that the other black wire (the mystery one!) connected to the left side on one of the two terminals that were joined by the tab. That suggests that it feeds something else--somewhere--and isn't switched. It's possible that it's a heater or receptacle or something in the other bath, yes. But as of now, who knows?

I'd also guess that the conjecture about that fan having once been a two-function fixture is quite likely. It might have been a light/fan combo or it could even have been a heater/fan combo (I've seen those too). If it was replaced at some time with a simple fan, that'd explain why whoever installed it just put both wires (white and black) on one switch terminal and left the other half of the switch doing nothing.

[BTW, you probably already know this, but never put two wires under one terminal screw!]

While I still think it's a good idea to investigate further what the other black wire feeds, here's one approach that ought to work for you:

Plan "A"

Because the new single pole switch has only two terminals, you'll need a couple of pigtails--short (6") pieces of black wire of the same guage (#12 if it's a 20A circuit or #14 if it's a 15-amp circuit). And you'll need a short piece of bare ground wire too. (If you already have some black wire, you can make up a bare ground by skinning off all the insulation, BTW.) Also needed are three yellow or red wirenuts.

Skin about 3/4" from both ends of your two pigtails and connect one to the two black wires that were on the left side of the old switch. Connect the other pigtail to the black/white pair.

Finally, twist the bare pigtail together with the other bare grounds in the box and wirenut those all together. If this is a metal box (likely, given the age of the wiring), one of the ground wires should be attached to the box with a screw. This grounding pigtail will connect to the green ground screw of the switch.

[BTW, while you're changing out your other switches and receptacles, this is something you should be doing at each box: twisting all the grounds together and connecting a grounding wire to the new device/fixture and to all metal boxes, if that wasn't done originally! If you have a number of these to do, you might want to pick up some green wirenuts made for that purpose. For a one-shot deal, though, the green color isn't mandatory.]

Once the black pigtails are made up and connected, then land them on the two terminals of your new switch. (It doesn't matter which goes to what terminal.)

While that, I believe, is the simplest approach, here's a slightly different (and possibly superior) approach you could choose to do:

Option "B"

Instead of wiring a pigtail to the black/white pair, you could take them apart and experiment to see which of the two wires actually controls the fan (a matter of trial and error). If you can determine that one works and the other isn't necessary, you won't need the second pigtail. You'd just connect the "right wire" to the switch and cap the other one off with a wirenut.

Although this way requires a little bit more "diagnostic work", it has two potential advantages: (1) the box will end up less crowded without the second pigtail and (2) you won't end up feeding power to a wire that in all likelihood does nothing.

Cheers and good luck with this!

I will try as you suggest (requires a hardware store run) but I'd like to understand it better first. What are the fat white wires? Am I right in guessing the dark rubber conduit probably goes to the fixture and the silvery ones are household supply?

The fixture itself is a fan/light combo where both light and fan turned on at the same time. Is it possible someone rewired the same fixture intentionally (I don't know why though) and turned it from a light-OR-fan to a light-AND-fan? I dunno, maybe they figured they never used one without the other and got tired of turning on both? Would that make more sense?

This particular box was apparently ungrounded. The ground wires were twisted together but left loose in the box. All the other boxes I've opened up so far have had the grounding wires twisted together and looped into a tab-like projection on the box (metal), and not on the switches or receptacles. Was this acceptable practice in the past and not now? I was expecting this project to be a simple, straightforward direct replacement project. Geesh.

I really need to pick up a wiring book. Can you recommend one? I heard that one which was previously highly recommended (and I was going to pick up) is on recall now though.

Thanks,
Ellie

"The fixture itself is a fan/light combo where both light and fan turned on at the same time. Is it possible someone rewired the same fixture intentionally (I don't know why though) and turned it from a light-OR-fan to a light-AND-fan? I dunno, maybe they figured they never used one without the other and got tired of turning on both? Would that make more sense?"

Ah hah! Yes, I'd say it is all but certain now. The light/fan functions were once separately switched and then someone decided to tie them together on one switch.

That means "Plan A" because "Plan B" was based on the (now debunked) assumption that there's only one remaining function in that fan!

[Not to complicate things just when we're drawing down to some final conclusions, but it also means you have available a "Plan C", which would be to use a new dual switch and return to the original design, with fan and light controlled by their own switches. Arguably, that might save some energy if the fan is sometimes left running when the light isn't needed or vice-versa. But I'm not pushing that one way or the other; it's altogether your choice!]

"I will try as you suggest (requires a hardware store run) but I'd like to understand it better first. What are the fat white wires? Am I right in guessing the dark rubber conduit probably goes to the fixture and the silvery ones are household supply?

Ya know, when I looked at the pic with the white wires, I didn't quite understand it either. It looks to me like they are neutrals, but I assumed you'd just chosen to omit some of details, like how the neutrals are wirenutted to each other in the box.

One of the missing details about the fan/light is that we never did figure out the source of the neutral for that fixture. With 120V wiring, any light, fan or other outlet needs a hot feed and a neutral to work. These days, most electricians would wire that fan/light combo by running a three-wire cable from the switch to the fan (e.g., black for the switched hot light feed, red for the switched hot fan feed and white for the neutral).

My guess is that whoever wired your light/fan didn't have 3-wire cable (or didn't understand how to use it) and so s/he put the two switch legs in one cable and ran the neutral in the other. The fact that both of those cables have rubber sheathing tends to confirm that those were part of the same "project". Why, exactly, there appear to be two white neutrals heading "north" is anyone's guess. It's rather bizzare, actually.

Not that it matters much, but I think what you have there are cables (not conduit); conduit is like a pipe with individual wires running through it. If, as I suspect, it's cable, not conduit, the rubber sheathing could indicate that it is submersible pump cable or motor wire or something like that. Very possibly, it was just some scrap wire that someone happened to have laying around. Another possibility is, gulp!, that's a cut-up heavy duty extension cord! I dunno, but it isn't anything "standard" I'd expect to see in a bathroom wired in the 60s (or now either, for that matter!).

[Not that I doubt you, but I just gotta ask it again: Are there really two white wires in the same two-wire cable???]

The "silvery woven" cables appear to be early 60s vintage "Romex" (a brand name, actually, but often used generically). 1967 was right about the point in time when the woven sheathing was phased out in favor of the plastic-sheathed NM-B that we see today in new wiring.

Whatever the ancestry or breed of that rubber-covered wire is, the way I would expect it to have been wired is this: three white (or maybe grey by now) neutrals tied together--one from the feed in the lower left, one to the circuit continuation in the lower right and one to the rubber cable in the upper right. Because a cable with two white wires is quite strange, I'd expect to find, on close examination, a black wire in that cable that's been clipped off and not used.

As you've presented it in your drawing though, it's a head scratcher alright. It could be that the neutral runs on one wire to the fan and then back to the circuit continuation but, again, that'd be beyond strange, IMHO.

This particular box was apparently ungrounded. The ground wires were twisted together but left loose in the box. All the other boxes I've opened up so far have had the grounding wires twisted together and looped into a tab-like projection on the box (metal), and not on the switches or receptacles. Was this acceptable practice in the past and not now? I was expecting this project to be a simple, straightforward direct replacement project. Geesh.

Geesh is right! Nothing short of cucumbers grows faster than a home wiring project.

Yes, times have really changed when it comes to grounding. Cables with ground wires included began to appear during the 50s and, frankly, I think a lot of electricians had no idea what to do with them! So they twisted them together and sometimes attached them to boxes, etc. :-)

Keep in mind that most receptacles then accommodated only two-prong plugs and switches had no grounding terminals.

A lot changed during the 60s, as three-prong outlets became standard by the end of the decade and more and more equipment had separate grounding connections. And the good news is this: Few changes in wiring requirements reduced the number of serious house fires more than the advent of comprehensive grounding systems.

And the other good news is: Your house wiring includes equipment ground wires. Whenever you have the opportunity to improve something, put them to use! And, especially, whenever you're putting in a device that has a green grounding terminal, take the time to connect it to ground. (Also, check the connections on the old ground wires to make sure they're sound. Once upon a time, just twisting them together was a normal practice. Modern code requires a mechanical connector such as a wire nut or a crimped sleeve.

"I really need to pick up a wiring book. Can you recommend one? I heard that one which was previously highly recommended (and I was going to pick up) is on recall now though.

Yeah, that recall caused quite a flap. I'm sorry I don't have a good recommendation on the title of a basic book on the top of my head. Hopefully, someone else will pop in with one.

Again, thank you for your patience. You see, I am the biggest idiot in the history of electrical DIY. Apparently. I just got brave and really tugged everything out of the box and discovered some things that, well, really aren't so weird. Just the wiring of the switch was. The two white wires. Yep they're neutrals. Soldered together and wrapped with electrical tape and stuffed in the hole in the back of the box so to look just like a conduit with two white wires coming out of it. At least, to my inexperienced eyes.
So, out the top is gray/white/copper. Left bottom is black/white/copper and right bottom is black/white/copper. Totally normal. The bottom whites are 20 amp (is 20 amp circuit) and so are thicker, and had me quite confused. The black wires seemed to be thinner, but now I see that it was just their color and position that made them seem that way.

I am uploading some actual photographs to Photobucket and I will post those shortly.

Thanks (smacking head)
Ellie

Mostly as it was.

Partly out.

All the way out.

Soldered neutrals.

Frayed Romex? Is this a concern?

So it looks like whoever installed the fixture didn't know about pigtailing or code or anything, even a little bit, or they didn't care and had a combo switch handy and figured that would work. I guess it did. Technically.

ugh.

Ellie

terribletom, had I gotten here near the beginning of the thread, I WOULD HAVE at least tried to solve the OP's question originally - as I do with all other threads I get involved with.

I spend a lot of time in an IRC computer/electronics chat channel. I ask a question, usually how to do something, and about thirty people jump down my throat, asking why I'd want to, telling me I shouldn't, etc. I do respect their input, but I also become very frustrated at the refusal to just answer the simple question I asked. I imagine other people feel the same way as me, and I therefore try to give them a direct answer ASAP, with further input/troubleshooting/advice only secondary to that.

You can turn anything you want into a personal attack, call me names if you wish, whatever - it pisses me off when I ask a question and get a page full of non-answers, so I will. Read: WILL. ALWAYS. At least TRY to give direct answers as early as possible. I may FAIL sometimes, especially as I seem to be having greater and greater difficulty following conversations these days, but I will always try.

My thoughts.

A quality installation for its time, soldering was a good practice then. The switch was used for light and fan. The fan was either not turned on when needed or left running when not needed. Someone decided to fix that and did it by combining wires for fan and light on one switch.

On commercial installations that is common to wire the fan to the light. Could actually be a requirement.