Here are some quick observations:

Your DW and sink are separated by the fridge. Why? I see lots of dripping between sink and DW around a hulking object.

Your trash/recycling is too far from the sink where most trash/recycling is generated. Have you found that to not be the case for your family?

Is your fridge a built-in or integrated model? If not, it's not drawn accurately to scale. Even a CD (counter depth) fridge will sit deeper than the cabinets around them. My CD fridge sits out 29" from the wall (28" for box and doors, 1" air required air gap behind it, not including handles) while most cabinets with standard counter overhang sit out 25.5". SD (standard depth) fridges can be as much as 36" deep. Not only will a fridge in that location jut out and make accessing cabinets in the corner difficult but the doors may likely hit the peninsula counter.

There may be a reason why you've arranged the kitchen this way - and if so, please explain - but here's what I'd try:

Fridge and floor to ceiling pantries on the top wall. This puts the fridge at the edge where guests and other family members can grab an item without getting in cook's way.

DW, trash/recycling and sink on right wall with sink under window.

Gas range on bottom wall with plenty of room to spread out for prepping and multiple cooks. It's also out of the traffic pattern when everyone wants to come in and visit with the cook, which is generally a good thing.

I'll draw this out and post it for you.

Is it possible to sketch out the breakfast room, dining room, whatever the heck is behind the pantry/closet wall, and whatever is behind the wall with the ovens in the existing kitchen.

Do you use the breakfast area at all?
Where is the "grocery door"?
What kinda range you want? Or do you want a rangetop?
Got enough refrigeration?
Where do you store the dishes? Do you have multiple sets?

Range looks in a bad spot if you have multiple cooks...tall pantry sucks the usability out of that section of counter use....You mentionned a goal is floor space... what you have is a lg square perimeter kitchen [G]shape.The focus seems to be that people land at various spots around that perimeter-is that what you want?? working in an island with some perimeter areas -if done right, will create access from the different sides and be a more social kitchen I think...have you thought of the overall configuration at length...and how you want people to land in relation to one another...their backs will be against one another quite a bit...when you tear the pantry out, the sq footage expands greatly....all I'm saying is think of options.

I have 2 sinks and made the mistake of thinking my cleanup sink needed to be 2-basins, like I'd always preferred. But with 2 sinks in the room, so I'm no longer prepping and draining pots in the same sink that's collecting dirty dishes, I'd rather have the advantages a large, single basin sink could give me in the cleanup area.

Lisa, I think you missed the sink on the window wall...but the dishwasher placement is odd anyway. I can see where it was necessary and could work in the original floorplan, but with a bigger kitchen, it's no longer necessary to have it on the adjacent wall, and I'd much prefer it to the left of the cleanup sink.

Also, I still see a lot of dripping between washing veggies at either sink and either prepping by the sink, then moving them to the stove, or moving the whole veggies to nearer the stove for prepping.

Is there a wall behind the range? It'd be helpful to see walls, windows, and even more of the floorplan around the kitchen.

It sounds like lots of people go in and out of the room... I'd make the entrance a little wider.

I think you have a great start, and I can see some of the thought behind the layout, but still think it can be even better.

Hmmm, I'm getting different figures when I add up the inside dimensions of spaces on the bottom wall and match it to the measurement noted for the total span.

13' = 156"

1'10" (22")
3' (36")
1'3" (15")
2' (24")
1'9" (21")
+ 48" for cabinets at each end
-----
166"

That's a 10 inch difference.

Ditto for the side walls. Those are off by 2"

12' 10" = 154"

2' (24")
3' (36")
1'6" (18")
2'6" (30")
3'8" (44")
-----
152"

Can you please check your measurements? Or maybe it's my math that is off? That's possible since I totally missed that you're planning on two sinks. (Sheesh, my brain, thanks for pointing this out, rhome!)

One other observation. It doesn't look like you're taking the drywall thickness into account for the closet framing. That's about 4.5". Is that intruding into the kitchen or is that included in the closet dimensions? I'm thinking the former since our coat closet is 24" interior depth. Let me know if I'm making a false assumption.

I think it's a great idea to shrink the closet and replace the pantry with cabinetry.

Personally, I'd do what lisa_a suggested and put the fridge and pantry on the top wall and move the range to the bottom and move the dishwasher next to the sink (to the left). Doing so provides great access to the fridge and pantries from outside of the kitchen (such as from the breakfast nook) and keeps the cooking and prepping out of the walk way. Moving the dishwasher brings it much closer to the cleanup zone with the sink and garbage. Putting the range at the bottom also brings it closer to the prep area. You may want to also check that 36" is wide enough for the single entry to the kitchen. If you have multiple cooks, you may want a little more space to get in and out.

"The formal dining room with seating for 12 is a necessity and I wish at times it were bigger."

If you can post a picture of more of the layout of the surrounding areas including the breakfast nook and dining room, perhaps there may be some suggestions to help with this issue. Possibly you could remove or move walls to provide spillover space (perhaps into the breakfast nook?) when you have large gatherings.

Lots of good points raised here ...

First in terms of walls and constraints ... with the floorplan turned so the window is to the right ... the lower wall (with the fridge demarcates a study library on the other side ... I would not want to lose that. The opposite wall separates a hall and stairway that cannot be changed (easily). The breakfast nook is used for eating most meals and the dining room for entertaining.

I would prefer the dishwasher to the left of the sink just as it is now BUT ... I am one of the few who likes uppers for dish storage(and given the loss of pantry it is needed). The wall with the range on it is a load bearing wall but am planning to place a steel beam in the ceiling allowing the possibility of removing at least part of the wall to open the space to the breakfast nook. I am very open to moving the dishwasher ... but I have not found in my sketches a workable solution as the fridge or range seemingly must go on opposite walls - maybe you can show me a better way.

The fridge can be set back in the framing or it can overhang the counter ... yes I did not accurately show that.

Points about the second sink well taken ... should a second prep area be provided on a peninsula? should it be without a sink?

Question re entry of groceries ... the door for entry is near the small closet via an enclosed back porch. That would continue unchanged. I have never found bringing in groceries onerous.

Lastly ... the question of measurements ... the overall dims are correct and it is the internal dims that contain errors as noted.

I do appreciate the time and effort you have all taken to offer comments.

Doug

Others have given you good feedback. The only thing that I would say it that you will have a big traffic jam by having only 3 feet wide access to the kitchen. I have something similar now and it is terrible when we have family gatherings and parties. We are opening up that space to eliminate the traffic jam.
Diane

Here's my first pass at your plan.

Dimensions noted are cabinet sizes (36" fridges generally require cab boxes that are 39" wide but this can vary by an inch, depending on cab construction) except for two places. The kitchen entry is cabinet to counter edge and the 28" noted for the span between prep sink and pantry is for counter, not cab. Cab will actually be 26.5 (assuming 1.5" counter overhang).

As I wrote above, I moved the fridge to the top wall. I expanded your pantry from 36" to 60" to come closer to the amount of storage your pantry closet offers. The counter to the right of the fridge will act as handy landing zone for fridge items. MW can be above in a cabinet (GE Spacemaker II is the only one shallow enough to fit in normal depth upper cabinetry) or choose a MW drawer (these require a 24" wide cabinet).

DW is to your left, as you prefer with plenty of storage for dishes, glassware, silverware nearby. Sink isn't centered but it is under the window. Centering the sink made for 2 smaller, less usable cabs at the ends of that run. I opted to lose symmetry in favor of function, which sounds like what you'd choose, too.

You have 36" of work space on each side of the range, plenty of room to have multiple cooks working, plus it's bounded by two wet zones - clean-up sink and prep sink - so that each cook has nearby access to water. The prep sink can do double duty as a bar sink when you entertain. I didn't place the prep sink at the end of the counter to leave you room to set down bags of groceries and to preserve landing space for items from the pantry. You'll notice I enlarged the opening. I really don't think you'll want less than 48" since this is your only way in and out of the kitchen.

Back to the range wall. If you don't want a separate garbage/recycling bin, you can replace the 18" cabinet and 6" spice pull-out with a 24" wide drawer.

The run of uppers on the range wall (uppers are in red) ends in a bookcase/display case facing the DR wall.

This plan does not require you to move plumbing or gas lines - or if you do, not by much. Ditto for venting. That saves you money.

With a few minor tweaks, you can room to have a double oven. I'd place it between coat closet and DW. Oven cabs for 30" ovens can vary in width from 30" to 33" (depends on cabinet construction and mfg requirements). Change the sink cab from a 36" to a 33" and cheat a bit on the closet framing (turn the 2x4 sideways) and you'll have the extra 4" you need for a 33" oven cab.

You could also place the oven cab between coat closet and fridge - shrink the pantry cab to allow enough space - but then you need to be aware of door swing interference between fridge and ovens. This also moves fridge landing space farther away, too, but you may prefer to have a longer stretch of counter next to your DW.

One more variation to the above. If you'd like to have cabinet storage facing the hallway - perhaps for bar items? - then eliminate the 36" Susan at the end of the peninsula, replace it with a 24" cabinet facing the DR wall. On the inside of the U, add 2" cabinet spacers on each side of the corner so that you can open drawers. Shift the prep sink towards the range wall 10", enlarge the end cab from 26.5" to 36.5". Replace the 24" cab to the left of the range with a 34" cabinet.

Nice, Lisa!

Because the prep sink seems to back on a walkway, I wonder about doing something like Buehl's prep sink that's in her corner cabinet. If I'm right about it being open, it'd be nice if that peninsula could be deeper...30" or 36".

Buehl's corner prep sink (Hope you don't mind me posting this, B):

Good idea, rhome! That would allow a longer stretch of peninsula counter that could be used prep or putting out appies and such when entertaining.

(And thanks!)

Very nice Lisa and rhome ... let me think about this over night but you have given good ideas and a better layout than what I started with.

One other change I would add is to delete the lazy susan at the peninsula and replace it with a cabinet that opens into the aisle ... a big space for storing some awkward things like 2 big slow cookers, rice maker and a very large soup stock pot.

I need to think on storage a bit ... maybe the kitchen is not the place to cram in chafing dishes, big serving platters and the like which now find a spot in the pantry. Drawers by the stove and under the peninsula will store a couple of big woks, a large wok sized steamer (all 14 inches across) as well as a serious collection of pots and cooking vessels, pie plates and all the usual cooking stuff.

As an aside, recycle here is in three different containers ... compostable, cardstock and glass/metal plus the usual trash for everything else.

Many thanks for good ideas.

Regards ... Doug

You're welcome!

We also need multiple recycling/trash bins but we actually need more that you: compostable, cardboard/paper/plastic with necks/metal, glass, returnables, and garbage. That's 5! Yikes!

DeWils cabinetry offers a 36" corner cabinet that has 3 bins on a center pole. Not sure which cabinet company you're going with but possibly they will offer something similar. Then you could go with a 24" cabinet between corner and range to help with storing all your large items. Hmmm, or maybe they don't offer this option anymore? I can't find a pic of it at their website to show you.

Here's another thing to mull over.

If you want a 2nd oven, you don't have to go with a cook top/double oven set-up. You can go with a 36" range and a single oven installed below the counter like this:

[

[eclectic kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by cincinnati general contractor Andrew Melaragno, AIBD

This preserves the counter between fridge and closet or between DW and closet and saves you from making the trip to the MIL suite.

You can opt for a 27" oven instead of a 30", too. You could even choose a speed oven, which combines traditional oven with microwave technology. Just read the specs to make sure the speed oven model you purchase can be installed below a counter. I haven't see it personally but a few have commented here that some manufacturers don't allow this and if you do so anyway, you negate the warranty.

I would still like to see more of the floor plan sketched out. No one is thinking of kicking you out of your study, but you have that nice long wall by the side of the dining room that is unused. I wonder if it would be better to have a "great wall" there with a passage in front of it. Perhaps there is an opportunity to move some doorways.

Might be worth the consideration of at least doodling what happens if you do something like a well connected informal dining that expands to twelve and use it every day. Perhaps eat all or part of the breakfast room for storage or a scullery setup or a pantry-kitchenette.

"G" plans can work out well for a single cook or two cooks, but 3-4 is pushing it to me. It does make cooking a lot easier on a daily basis than your existing setup.

Also - what is that existing closet for? Are you comfortable with a 2 x 2 closet - essentially a broom closet? Whats on the other side of the wall?

Coming late to the discussion but - the one thing I notice is little prep space on either side of the range to either of the sinks. There is lots of counter outside of the prep area - 53" to the left of the clean-up sink and 28" to the right of the prep sink. I would try to move the sinks over and away from the range wall to get more counter between the range and the two sinks. The prep area needs to be expanded a bit so that it isn't so closed into the range wall.

The trash pull-out should be beside whichever sink is going to be the prep sink which I would guess would be the one on the left.

The clean-up sink can be centered on the window and move the Dw to the left (or up)and that can be done without affecting the above cabinet dish storage.
The prep sink can also be moved up (to the right) maybe 10" - 12" and if you narrow your aisle to 44" rather than 48" (which should still be fine) you will have enough counter at the end.

I just see all the prep/cooking/cleaning being squished into one narrow area of the kitchen. Does this make sense?

I tried to center the clean-up sink on the window, blfenton, but that meant having a 6" cabinet between sink and corner Susan (4' wide window is 36" from corner, centering a 36" sink cab means 6" from each side of the window), and reducing the end cabinet to 23" (actually 23.5 but I didn't write fractions on that plan). Not saying this isn't possible, it's just that I opted for larger, more usable cabinet space over centering the sink. The way the sinks are set up now, the space could handle 4 people prepping - one on each side of the range and one on the opposite side of each sink.

The prep sink could move towards the end of the peninsula but I wouldn't move it to the end. That's my preference, though. I'd hate giving up handy landing zone for pantry items and grocery bags. We deal with something like that in our current kitchen and it's a pain.

But this is my preference and may not suit how Dougald and his family work so good points to bring up.

Dougald, I have the same curiosity as bmore. I'd like to know what you intend to use the closet for - a 2' wide coat closet won't hold many coats - and what the rest of the house around the kitchen is like. You never know, the creative minds here may see a solution that fits your needs, one that hasn't occurred to you yet. Remember, paper dreaming is cheap. ;-)

For example, did you imagine your kitchen as an L with an island like this:

I centered the sink in the window in this plan. The island is huge - 88" long. I would definitely recommend that you recess a SD fridge into the wall or go with a CD model for this plan. Otherwise, your aisle between fridge door and island would be about 33", which is much too narrow for normal use plus it would make maneuvering the fridge in and out of its cab box a pain, if not impossible. Trash and recycling go under each sink in this plan.

Oops, forgot to note that the end island cabinet - the one facing the sink - is standard 24" depth. You could also turn this cabinet to face the range - a 30" deep, 24" wide cabinet - if that suits your storage needs better.

If you haven't already, take a tally of the items you need to store to figure out how much and what size cabinetry you need. If you need 15" deep wall storage, you can make the section closest to the closet that deep without interfering with aisle space. You can do a 24" wide section and still have 40" between corner of cabinetry and island corner. 40" is less than NKBA recommends for aisles (42" for one-cook kitchens, 48" for 2-cook kitchens, not many of us have the luxury of having 48" wide aisles) but you only have cabinetry opening on one side so I think you'll be okay.

Remember paper dreaming is cheap but it's an important step, especially since you want to to do this remodel right the first time.

Lots of good ideas ...

There was some curiosity about the existing floorplan and the rooms around it - I have the as built blueprints and will try today get a photoreduction as they are just too big for my little scanner. But I think it will become clear that the space allocated is about all there is without drastic and very costly structural changes.

The proposed 2' by 2' closet was actually put there to avoid a deep corner which is very difficult to use and allow it to open into the hall. While hanging the coats of a few visitors is appealing, the use would probably be for storage of large bulky itens currently in the pantry. There is an 8' by 8' vestibule just beyond the proposed closet which is used for entry and receiving visitors, coat and boot storage and especially to keep out the winter snow and cold.

I did indeed make a list of items to store and essentially the problem boils down to too many big things. Upper cabs are too narrow for almost all cooking/serving items ... there are for example 3 14 inch woks, 2 enormous roasting pans, a half dozen large 16 inch serving bowls, 4 platters, chafing dishes, fondue pots not to mention a 14 inch diameter soup stock pot ... all this in addition to the usual collection of cooking/baking pans and pots.

I like the island plan and will study it ... but am nervous about 12 inch deep pantries - fine for food items but way too narrow for large cooking vessels.

In the original plan lisa proposed, the uppers along the range wall would likely have limited use (dishes would be stored in the uppers above the DW) - are there other options then stock uppers with shelves? In my mind, the deeper pantries proposed by the fridge could be used on the bottom two thirds for food items and the top third could house those bulky items I listed above.

Trading off a walkin butler's pantry with its huge storage space in order to get more floor space and counter area is not easy.

There is plenty here for me to think about ... Doug

lisa's last plan looks really good-if the question were some deeper pantry-devote the 24 in to the left of dishwasher and do the tall deep pantry thing there-or have those uppers at 18 in deep...a few ways to get depth there. Any countertop lost is significantly made up by that island with access from all sides....then some of that 12 in pantry can be made into 12 deep uppers and 12 in deep lowers/with counterspace-say 30 in or so wide -for the coffee pot and toaster-small stuff that in a way, is nice to have off in a side position like that.

A number of readers have asked about the overall floorplan. Please pardon the scan quality as I photoreduced the original 34 year old blueprints to get the as built plan

To understand the blueprint ... the house is a 2 and a half story back split. In other words, this is the ground floor at the front of the house but the breakfast nook opens onto a second floor deck at the back overlooking a river about 300 feet away. The only change made since the house was built was to remove the wall surrounding the staircase down in the hall leading from the breakfast nook to the rear vestibule.

Both of the plans that lisa has presented offer real possibilities. I know that islands are favoured by many and with good reason, however I tend to lean toward lisa's plan A which had greater floor space and in my view greater flexibility.

Just a thought on storage ... the grocer is in town less than 10 miles away and fresh vegetables are required at least every second or third day. I prefer to let the store be the warehouse and buy only what is needed for now. That means the storage for canned/boxed food items need not be enormous however there is no getting around storage for the cooking tools needed. Early in the thread the question was posed if there was sufficient freezer/fridge space - answer is yes with a large fridge and freezer plus a second fridge in the mother in law suite.

Regards ... Doug

Paper dreaming is cheap....

There are big changes in this plan but that may not translate to big bucks, or at least not as much as you may think. Given your needs, especially your need for more space for entertaining and accommodating multiple cooks, it may be worth it.

So here's what I did.

I eliminated the wall between the kitchen and the stairway/hallway, kept the 2' x 2' closet, replaced the 4' window with two 24" (est. size) windows flanking the gas range, which now is the centerpiece of that back wall with ample space to work around it. Removing that wall allowed me to turn the island so that its long side is opposite the range with 48" between counters in this aisle. The windows flanking your range would be something like this:

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by burlington architect Smith & Vansant Architects PC

The bottom corner is dry-walled with the storage in that corner now facing into your study. The upside of this is that you don't need a corner cabinet, which isn't the most efficient for storage plus you get larger drawers next to range and sink. If you don't need the storage in the study - or don't want to go to that expense - then swap out the 30" cabinets on each side of this dry-walled section for 22" cabinets so that you can fit in a 36" corner Susan. Extend the upper cabinets from the sink to the window wall.

The large island - 88" x 51" - will allow multiple people to work in the space and for guests to visit with you without getting under foot. My goal was to give you more large sized cabinets to accommodate all the large kitchen items that you need to store. The trash pull-out at the end is handy to both prep sink and clean-up sink.

The grayed out squares in the island's corners denote support columns in case that's a support wall. It would look something like this:

[

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by san francisco architect Mark Brand Architecture

This defines the space but also conveys openness, which seems to fit your home's style based on the floor plan you posted - at least to my eye. Opening up that wall will also bring more light into the kitchen. You didn't include that as a priority but most people prefer light-filled kitchens so count this as a bonus. ;-)

The 18" deep pantry cabs on the DR wall can be floor to ceiling for more storage or base and uppers with counter here for coffee pot, toaster, beverage center, etc, handy for company to use and handy to the breakfast nook. You can expand this cabinetry to 24" deep and not impinge on your aisles that much. The aisle between island and pantry cab would become 47.5" and the span between fridge corner and pantry cab corner would be the same.

If you need to or prefer to go with a SD fridge, you'll need to shrink the island to 80" or so. I'm going by dimensions of my CD fridge (29" from wall, including 1" required air space, not including handles) and typical SD fridge depths of about 36", which may or may not include handles. If you go with a deeper fridge, you will need to adjust the width of the pantry cab so that you keep a decent aisle between the corner of the fridge and the corner of the pantry cab. The 17.5" shows the door swing of my French door fridge. You'll need to adjust this dimension depending on what fridge you purchase.

Oh, on the DR wall dimension, you mark it as 9'10" on your drawing but your scanned blueprint above shows the DR as being 10'4" wide. I went with the 10'4" dimension. If that's wrong, you'll need to reduce the pantry width by 6".

Ya still with me? Or did I scare you off with this idea? ;-)

lisa, where were you before I gave up trying to plan my kitchen?

You gave up?!?! Tell me it's not so, marcolo! I was completely intrigued by your kitchen project. I remember some incredibly creative ideas (with a virtual he-man kinda cook in one of them, right?) for your challenging space. What are you up to? Has the leg healed? I think someone else asked you this lately. Count me as another who wishes you'd post your adventures again. You tell a tale so hilariously well.

And thanks!

Good efforts, again, Lisa!

I like the more open idea, but think the L needs to stay as it was in the first island plan, because the fridge to prep to stove path doesn't work as well in this one. The prep sink where MW is then works well with the fridge, stove, and MW all on the bottom wall, and the pantry nearby. Plus, having the cleanup and dish area closer to the breakfast room makes more sense to me.

lisa

I really like it!

I had an initial discussion with a contractor friend (expert in the local building code) a week ago about those walls and yes both pantry walls are load bearing. The one nearest the existing kitchen is easily replaced by a steel beam ... your plan here presents a way of removing the second wall.

I just saw your latest thoughts this morning and need to think about it some more. One thought that comes to mind ... the wall between the kitchen and dining room could be used for the small pantries building them in between the existing studs if necessary.

Let me give this some more thought but I do like this much more than the first island plan.

As an aside, I was at a dinner last night where the kitchen was L shaped with an island 78 inches longvery much like your first island plan (plan B). I measured the aisleways (discreetly when the hostess/host weren't looking) and they were 40 inches and 42 inches. The whole arrangement dekt quite tight to me but ... that was just my feeling.

Regards ... Doug

I should have added ... in this Plan E from lisa, I would just eliminate that little 2'x3' closet as it occurred originally to prevent another awkward corner cab.

Regards ... Doug

After thinking about this (but clearly not long enough and as lisa says, it is cheap to dream on paper) ...

I think I agree with rhome's suggestion that the original Plan B L-shaped configuration works better even with the new island scheme. Making the range the centre between two windows likely is more aesthetic but I will give on the symmetry to have better function.

The issue of the fridge and aisle width can likely be resolved with either a new CD fridge or building the fridge into the wall - a new fridge will be acquired anyway so this is not a big deal.

The small closet can now be eliminated and replaced by a 24 inch pull out pantry or by a wall mounted oven.

I do really like the idea of eliminating the wall but had given up on the idea - the floor joists above are anchored to the two load bearing existing pantry walls and are cantilevered out to the stairwell - they are just boxed there as the stairwell is now open and a flight of stairs was added to go up to attic storage. So structural support was always an issue. The latest plan from lisa shows a way around that though some extra thinking may be required to deal with a ceiling that has two beams running down it - that is a minor issue compared to getting a workable plan!

The dining room wall (kitchen side) is in fact 10'4 as lisa pointed out ... I mistakenly used the dim of the dining room side of the wall. The plan shows useful pantries installed there and points to several possibilities including built back into studs to making teh pantries wider. In the existing kitchen, a small table sits in that location and that table holds a well used Tassimo plus coffee supplies. I would simply relocate that and the just as well used kettle to under the MW.

The island is enormous and I assume the size chosen (51 inches wide) was to allow standard 24 inch cabs back to back under it?

I really like the direction of this plan. I think it is something worth now taking my list of all the measurements of items to be stored and working through the arrangements of drawers and so on.

Eventually, if it passes that test I will come back on the issue of lighting and the ceiling ... plus inevitably to style and decor.

After thinking about this (but clearly not long enough and as lisa says, it is cheap to dream on paper) ...

I think I agree with rhome's suggestion that the original Plan B L-shaped configuration works better even with the new island scheme. Making the range the centre between two windows likely is more aesthetic but I will give on the symmetry to have better function.

The issue of the fridge and aisle width can likely be resolved with either a new CD fridge or building the fridge into the wall - a new fridge will be acquired anyway so this is not a big deal.

The small closet can now be eliminated and replaced by a 24 inch pull out pantry or by a wall mounted oven.

I do really like the idea of eliminating the wall but had given up on the idea - the floor joists above are anchored to the two load bearing existing pantry walls and are cantilevered out to the stairwell - they are just boxed there as the stairwell is now open and a flight of stairs was added to go up to attic storage. So structural support was always an issue. The latest plan from lisa shows a way around that though some extra thinking may be required to deal with a ceiling that has two beams running down it - that is a minor issue compared to getting a workable plan!

The dining room wall (kitchen side) is in fact 10'4 as lisa pointed out ... I mistakenly used the dim of the dining room side of the wall. The plan shows useful pantries installed there and points to several possibilities including built back into studs to making teh pantries wider. In the existing kitchen, a small table sits in that location and that table holds a well used Tassimo plus coffee supplies. I would simply relocate that and the just as well used kettle to under the MW.

The island is enormous and I assume the size chosen (51 inches wide) was to allow standard 24 inch cabs back to back under it?

I really like the direction of this plan. I think it is something worth now taking my list of all the measurements of items to be stored and working through the arrangements of drawers and so on.

Eventually, if it passes that test I will come back on the issue of lighting and the ceiling ... plus inevitably to style and decor.

Good point, rhome. I think it depends on how Doug and crew work. If they practice mise en place, as I do, having the fridge slightly farther away isn't an issue. I pull everything together before cooking so I'd rather have a larger prep zone around the range than have the range closer to the fridge. If, however, he and crew run to the fridge and pantry often during cooking, then putting the range where sink is in Plan E would likely work better.

Two variations to Plan E:

1) Move range to where sink is and split the cab and counter on each side evenly into 27" sections. I'd widen the aisle to 48" to make it easier to have multiple cooks work, plus ease traffic heading between dish storage (assuming that it will be by the clean-up sink) to DR.

If you opt to keep the suggested dry-walled corner with corner storage allocated to the study, you'll need to relocate the window and sink to give you elbow room next to the sink and to alleviate the crowding of activity in that corner. You could make that end section (where the 2x2 closet is on Plan E) a 36" pantry cab or you could make it a 33" oven/MW cab. If you go with a pantry cab, you'd have room for a 29" cab between sink and corner. Here's what it would look like if you went with a 33" oven/MW cab to the left of the DW:

(I gave you a much larger window, too. It's a gloomy day here, I'm craving sunlight so my need showed up in your plan. ;-)

You could also widen the island by putting 30" deep cabinets back to back (yes, Doug, the island in Plan E calls for 48" deep cabs back to back with 1.5" counter overhang) so that you get a few more inches of island across from the range. The island would grow from 51" to 63". You shouldn't need to alter the DR pantry cab and aisle to accommodate the wider island. (I didn't redraw the pantry cabs on the DR wall. I didn't quite follow what you meant by building in the stud space.)

2) Move the fridge to where the 2x2 closet is, creating a great work triangle of fridge and range across from prep sink on the long side of the island. Cab and counter on each side of the range would shrink to 25" each. You could then add a 36" wide pantry where the fridge was and expand the cab between sink and corner to 33". Or you could do as above and go for a 33" oven/MW cab in place of the 36" pantry cab and have a 36" cabinet between sink and corner.

The one thing I'm not too crazy about is that the oven/MW are on the opposite side of the clean-up sink from the fridge and range area. But given the size of your space, I'm not sure how else to address this. Oh, wait, yes, I do! Put the oven/MW cab next to the dry wall corner on the same wall as the sink. Like this:

You could also widen the island by putting 30" deep cabinets back to back (yes, Doug, the island calls for 48" deep cabs back to back) so that you get a few more inches of island across from the range. The island would grow from 51" to 63". You will need to alter the DR pantry cab and aisle to accommodate the wider island.

There are pluses and minuses to all the above. You'll need to figure out which suits the way you and your fellow chefs work in the kitchen while serving your storage needs. Whichever way you go, opening up that wall to the stairway/hallway gives you a lot more options because you can capture what would have been aisle space between island and wall.

PS In case you didn't notice, I made all your aisles 48" wide. With that wall gone, you've got the room and it sounds like you like having more space to move about.

lisa ... you are tireless!

I spend a couple of hours working with this layout - I like it a lot and have pretty much discarded the others. A few points of consideration ...

1. I spoke to the contractor about the ceiling beams and he says it is practical though will need an approval from the local building authority ie structural plans must be prepared and submitted ... I will do this in early November to allow a post Xmas construction.

2. The contractor also said ... be careful of the brickwork (if windows are changed). First bricklaying cannot be done here in winter and secondly, and more importantly, apparently the bricks used originally cannot now be matched. So back to the original window config ... i did not retry the option of the range on the window wall with the window left where it is though I may look again at that.

3. I do tend to agree with observations on keeping the M/W etc close to the range. Personally I rarely use the M/W and could likely get along without it but ... it is convenient at times. Perhaps the best solution is to acquire a new M/W convection oven and use that as the secondary oven to the range. Then it could be mounted above the countertop between the range and the fridge in a 24 inch space. Not perfect but a very workable compromise.

4. I did take the time to work through cabinet configs all around and prove to myself that all would fit and be convenient. It also gave of course a listing of cabs needed for estimating costs. The layout seems wonderfully practical as I imagined the sorts of things we normally do and how things would flow ...

5. On your plans, I am not sure I understand one of the dimensions. The length of the wall with the window is 12'10" or 154 inches. But if I add your dims at the island, there is a 24 inch cab, a 48 inch aisle and then an 85 inch island for a total of 157 inches. Does that mean the island really should be 82 inches long. The same total dims discrepancy occured in the earlier version of this island plan.

6. Could you also please give a two sentence primer on where on an island the prep sink should be located?

7. I looked at rhome's kitchen with the drywalled in corner and I like the concept. However I cannot get at it from the study as there already is built in cabinetry against the wall. The corner is however a perfect spot for a heavy mixer - it isnt used much as I don't really bake but when it is needed, it is needed.

These are all minor details - the devil is always in the details I know - but the overall plan appears to meet all my needs. As a bonus and you did note it, there will be much more light and an airy open feeling, both needed ingredients.

Many thanks for your time and patience ... Doug

You're welcome, Doug! Glad to help.

Ouch on redoing brick work to relocate the window. Since it sounds like the dry wall corner idea won't fly either, the current window location will work just fine. So scratch that idea. (That saves money, woo hoo! And gives you a bit more elbow room around the range. All good.)

I'm not sure which plan you're looking at so I'll walk you through the last one, Plan H and hopefully clear up any misunderstanding about the island dims.

The total island length is 85" - that's 82" of cabinets + 3" counter overhang, 1.5" at each end, which seems to be standard these days. The numbers noted on the island itself denote cabinet sizes. For instance, 18" means an 18" cab for the prep sink. You may, btw, need to go to a larger cab size, depending on what type of prep sink you choose. I just go with 18" by default. To its left is a 30" wide cabinet. Both of these face the range and are 24" deep, standard cab depth. If you add 24" + 58" (left side), you get 82" of cabs.

The room is 154" but I added in 4.5" for the wall you are removing with support provided by the posts at the end of the island. That's 158.5" total. If you add 25.5" for perimeter cabs & counter (24" deep cab + 1.5" counter overhang) + 48" aisle + 85" island length, you should get 158.5". Whew, my math checks out!

Does this make sense?

Prep sink placement in a two sentence primer? Maybe someone else can do that but I'm not sure I can, not without resorting to long, run on sentences that my HS English teachers would abhor. LOL

There are some basics about placement but placement is also influenced by our preferences. Rhome and I often disagree about where to put the prep sink (we tease each other about it, all in good fun) and that's okay. We all come at this based on our work styles and experiences.

The goal, as I understand it, is to provide a water source for prepping in close proximity to range and fridge - that's the work triangle that is key here. Prep sinks placed at island corners, as shown in Plan H, offer the advantage of being handy to people working on both sides of the island, which is a good thing when there are multiple cooks. On the other hand, if that corner also serves as handy landing space for fridge, ovens or pantry goods, that's sometimes hard real estate for me to give up. (That's not the case in Plan H.)

Others like to have some counter between sink and edge of the island - that's one reason why I placed the prep sink where I did in Plan E.

Having the long side of an island with prep sink across from a range is favored but that's not always possible (it won't be in my kitchen remodel either). When that's the case, aim for as much counter next to the prep sink as possible. Somewhere I read that a bunch of kitchen scientists studied this and determined that the magic number was 42 (just like in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, too funny!). Some are okay with as little as 24" while others are counter hogs and want 5' or more. We can give you guidance but you'll have to figure out what works best for you. HTH!

One more thing on island size (not that you asked but I forgot to mention this earlier). Plan for one no wider than you can reach to the middle of to clean. I'm short (a hair under 5'4") but I have long arms so I could reach the middle of a 63" island. Longer than that and I'd need a squeegee to clean it, ugh. Your island, as drawn, is approaching continent status ;-) but given your needs, I think it's also the right size and scale for your space.

OT, I'm about to download a free trial version of Home Architect, Professional. Rhome highly recommends it (she has an older version of this program). If you're interested in playing with your plan and seeing it in 3D, this may interest you, too. Link is below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chief Architect - home design software

I am so glad you are doing an island. That was my first thought when you said people like to visit with you while you are in the kitchen. People need something to lean on and congregate around, set their glass on. I can't imagine just standing in the middle of the room. MAJOR props and kudos for including the island, your guests are going to going to love this and it will be a nice focal point to the overall design and make you the star of the kitchen! Good job everyone!

lisa ... thanks again

For most of my time spent working on cab configs, I used the L shape of Plan B with the island and other details of Plan H or earlier "big" island plans.

Your arithmetic makes perfect sense and I just now verified the dims with a tape measure - it all works out:)

The island is big and I am much taller than you but really cant reach a whole lot farther comfortably. So that means it is probably big enough.

I will maybe give the software a shot ... if the learning curve is not too bad.

Regards ... Doug

Learning curve ... let's just say I'm learning new, colorful words! LOL Seriously, it's not that bad.

My hubby is a software engineer and he's on hand to walk me through, which does help. The learning curve isn't too bad, certainly less than the one I encountered when I tried Google Sketch-up (that's CAD from scratch). CA does include tutorials that help explain how things work. It just takes patience and reading. I'm a visual person so I think it will be well worth it.

Besides getting advice from folks here by asking questions or searching the forum (and if you haven't read all the info that can be found at the New To Kitchens? Posting Pics? Read Me! definitely do so), another place I've found lots of useful information is Kelly's Kitchen Sync, a blog written by Kelly Morisseau, CMKBD (Certified Master Kitchen & Bath Designer). She just wrote a book that has been well received.

There are many details to a kitchen remodel - many times more than when you built your home - so the more homework you do, the smoother your project will go. Just think of it as a way to keep you out of trouble for awhile. ;-)

Lisa asked me to put in my 2 cents worth here about prep sink location. There are at least 2 reasons I would move it from the location shown in Plan H to the corner of the island closest to the fridge.

1) In H it is directly across from the range, which is, IMO, the prime real estate for prepping. I want to wash and drain to the side and chop right across from the stove for easy turning back and forth.

2) In H, it is close to the main sink, and why have both sources of water, and the people using them, right on top of each other while the other side of the kitchen is 'dry?'

3) If it's on the other corner, toward the fridge, you have a nice triangle for fridge-to-sink/prep-to-stove.... no back-tracking.

4) The far side of the island can serve as a 2ndary prep area or baking project spot, but in Plan H it has no access to water. Moving the sink would make the kitchen, as a whole, better for the 3 to 4 chefs you sometimes have working, as each can be in separate work areas, but close to a sink.

5) If moved, to the outer corner, those wanting to wash their hands or get some water for any purpose can do so, without entering the sacred work zone. :-)

I guess that was more than 2 reasons! So maybe my 5-cents-worth. ;-) In that corner (7:00 position), you still have plenty of room around the sink to serve as landing space, in my opinion. The sink isn't that big to work around, in my experience. I hope that helps! Lisa's getting SO good at plans and this one's great.

Thank you Rhome ... after Lisa'a explanation I had arbitrarily moved the sink to exactly where you suggest :) I think like you guys now!

Seriously, it has been fun and certainly a whole lot easier (and cheaper too!) than working with a kitchen designer. The end result is wayyy better than what I started with. Given the crowded space I have been working in, I am really looking forward to a renovation over the winter making entertaining and large dinners much more of a joy.

BTW I loved your kitchen and can only wish I had the space for a 48 inch range.

Regards ... Doug

Thank you, Dougald! We have 8 kids + 2 beloved sons-in-law, so plan that one day we'll be making GIANT meals on that 48" rangetop with multiple cooks. :) It gets pretty decent use now.

If you did a 48" range, you'd still have 21" to each side. ;-D

I cannot wait to see your kitchen take shape!! It will be such a huge change in your house.

"I think like you guys now!"

Uh, oh, you're in trouble now! ;-)

One thing rhome didn't add to a plus for placing the prep sink in the 7 o'clock position is that it can now also serve as a bar sink for guests. Given how much you entertain, that's a plus.

Good luck and please keep us posted. We love to see kitchens take shape and especially love the grand reveal.

haven't kept up with all the detail here but Doug-you've done a great job of working with ideas cascading onto each other and getting to an improved result. That first G shape kitchen wasn't wrong...but this is so much better.With so much effort from GW folks, and Doug-your open mindedness,[a huge plus]in thinking all the options through,this will now add to your home's ambience and value...certainly you are going to love using the space.Materials and finishes will make it your own in the next phase.

This is the first time I have asked for ideas here and I must say that everyone has been incredibly helpful. Lisa and Rhome in particular have taken a lot of time to understand what I wanted and to help me see various options. My hat is off to the folks here for the great advice I have been given.

And yes ... I am looking forward to the next phase ... and will no doubt have many more questions.

Regards ... Doug

Lisa, #5 was supposed to include the bar sink use in the "or get some water for any purpose." ;-)

Dougald, I think I speak for Lisa, too, when I say we appreciate your appreciation! It has been an extreme pleasure to work with you (although Lisa did far more work than my little contributions), as Herbflavor said, you have been open-minded and took our well-meaning advice for what it was...Sincere interest in helping you have a great kitchen to enjoy for years. (Seems we've run into trouble with that around here lately...having our intentions challenged and offers of help and advice taken in offense. That doesn't happen to us usually, and it's been a disappointing shock. You have buoyed us, and reminded us that helping is a good thing, and that it can still be valuable to people.)

Herbflavor, we've noticed and appreciated your diplomatic and reasonable responses in trying to help in other threads, too. It's what makes the forum work and what brought me in and kept me here this long.

Have a great weekend, everyone, and Dougald, I hope you keep us up to date on your progress. (Lots of pictures!)

In order to enlarge the window could you use something else besides brick around the window such as rock? Stucco? I love rock and brick together. Loving the new plan.

gr8day ... the house is a 2 and a half story back split built in 1977. While I wanted all stone when it was built, cost considerations led me to settle for a stone front entry and massive interior stone fireplaces but the rest of the exterior is entirely brick. At the time no thought was really given to future matches of the brick for renovations and though I saved a half pallet of bricks, they were later used for repairs when the earthquake we had in the mid 80s cracked some brickwork in one corner of the house. Nothing is impossible of course but I don't really want to think about (or pay for!) the exterior architectural complications of moving the window.

Given the basic plan that Lisa drew and incorporating Rhome's suggestions of maintaining the L shap from the earlier plan, I spoke to the gas appliance installation folks. The devil is always in the details.

As a prelude to this renovation, I had gas installed this past summer and replaced the old furnace and water heater. My plan is to install a gas range that will give sufficient BTUs for high heat cooking since I stir fry often with woks. I haven't ordered yet but am prepared to place the order for a (Costco Canadian version) 36 inch BlueStar range. The installer told me that the local building code demanded that there be 36 inches vertical clearance and 18 inches horizontal clearance from the elements of a high output range to any combustible (ie cabinet) surface. He also recommended a 42 inch range hood and said 48 inches (900 cfm) would be much better for high heat frying. That would change the location of the microwave from between the fridge and range moving it perhaps back to the corner (angle mounted?) between the range and cleanup sink. Again a minor detail in the original plan but all requires thinking through.

Lisa said it best ... dreaming and planning on paper is cheap. I really like the plan and am still working on the details which I roughly grouped into
1) cabinat details (cab choices and special features/inserts etc)
2) lighting and electrical requirements (I have made a first cut thinking about LED lighting)
3) structural details (I have thought of a way to frame in a second steel beam and elinate the posts for support at the end of the island)(plumbing appears straightforward)

I am definitely a function kind of guy and have not worried a moment about decor ... but the ceiling will be a style problem for sure - it is 8' as that was the norm in the 70s and it will have an awkwardly placed 8 inch steel I beam to be framed and hidden ... the ceilings in this open planned house are all stippled ... but that is not an option for a kitchen ... in any case, there will need to be some thought given to that issue as well as of course cab style, hardware, floor finish, backsplash, and countertops.

Regards ... Doug

I'm thinking dude was quoting commercial kitchen code. The bluestar is a hybrid the meets the qualifications for home use. Inspectors generally follow the device specifications and (if I'm looking at the right thing) Bluestar says upper cabinets can be right beside the unit.

Here is a link that might be useful: Installation instructions for a bunch-a-models

You can be sure I will followup and ask another installer ... as I liked the plan as drawn.

Regards ... Doug

Thanks Doug, your home sounds gorgeous. I can understand about the window now. I love your general location as my mother lives over on the Kentucky side and has gorgeous views. My sister has a lovely view of the river, too. It's a big area that thrives on the river there. I live in Georgia and miss them very much. ... I think you have a great plan even with the window as is. When we were building I didn't want to frame in our family room much at all but the house is so open we had to do something to load bear. We ended up putting in an extra strong wood engineered beam and two columns to support it. This is a barn of a place and very open.. You might be able to use a smaller beam with a couple of load bearing columns. They are herculean in their strength and come in different styles and are designed to load bear. The builder actually said we didn't really HAVE to have the columns with such a huge beam but they were pretty and decorative ionic columns we found at Home Depot and ended up using them. It just felt better to have the extra help for the beam. It was something watching that beam going in. I know you will figure it out and it will be beautiful. It's very exciting planning a reno and you will enjoy it when finished for years to come. Good luck!

Thanks for your encouragement gr8tday ... it would be nice to be able to reverse the L shape and locate the range opposite the long side of the island and have the clean up sink against the short island edge. I think Lisa tried hard to draw that in but without moving the window it is tough. Even so the plan as drawn is excellent and I am really excited about this.

When the house was initially built, I too used big beams (6 inch wide by 12 inches deep) structuarally in the open parts of teh house and they have worked well. Steel is a bit more practical in this application because a much smaller and less bulky beam can be specified.

Living on a navigable river (the Rideau) all these years has been great fun though some would disagree when they look out on a frozen white landscape from November till the end of March!

Regards ... Doug