Also would go with 27" not 30" oven given the limited space. I used a 24" oven but I also had a 30"w GE Advantium multi-use wall oven so I could get by with a smaller oven, and wanted a side-hinged door that is available in 24" and 30" widths but not currently 27".

A wall oven may fit somewhere on the left wall on the other side of the doorways, but that means having to bring food back and forth through a trafficed passageway which I try to avoid.

Actually, why not flip the refrigerator and wall oven in this setup? Then you'd have plenty of room for an oven and cooktop. You'd have to be creative with the ventilation because of the window though. Why not put the wall oven left of the window, sink below the window, and cooktop somewhere on the wall where the sink is now, and fridge near the dining area? I like the fridge closest to where we eat anyway, since that's the applance most used during a meal when someone realizes they need more food or a condiment or something, or dessert.

I actually think you have good ideas for the space. You clearly have a knack for spatial planning and kitchen layout.

I am wondering, though, at the wisdom of aging in place here, especially if your wife already has health problems.

The things that make a house good for aging in place are usually:

1) No stairs or no need to go up and down them because
2) there is a full bathroom, bedroom, and laundry on the main floor.
3) Wall ovens, which you don't really have space for.

I found your previous thread for you.

I remember your kitchen and the suggested plans. I didn't go back to re-read that thread but IIRC, there's a powder room above the pantry area. Have you considered installing a pocket door or a sliding barn door, pantry room side, to eliminate a door swing into your kitchen? That would prevent someone from swinging that door open quickly and knocking into someone standing at the sink or banging into the open pull-out trash cab.

You could build a false wall to house the barn door so that you could still use that wall for hanging shelves for pantry goods. Or you could hide the barn door with cabinetry as they did in this small kitchen.

[{{gwi:2137494}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/lu-in-dave-squirrel-hill-pa-contemporary-kitchen-phvw-vp~2789138)

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Other Metro Media & Bloggers Adrienne DeRosa

Given your kitchen's small size, I would stick with a range. Do you need a full size oven in addition to a range oven? Or are you just trying to gain a 2nd oven? If the latter, consider one of the double oven ranges, such as the one in this kitchen:

[{{gwi:2137495}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-contemporary-kitchen-louisville-phvw-vp~3228215)

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Louisville Architects & Building Designers Rock Paper Hammer

Another option would be to purchase a speed oven, which is oven, MW and more. Miele makes one that can be installed below the counter.

One modification I'd make to your kitchen is to move the prep sink to under the window, like this:

{{gwi:2137496}}

Then you can use that recess for an appliance garage to store a stand mixer, food processor, etc. It will be a lot easier to pull them out if there isn't a sink in the way. It would be similar to this:

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Portland Kitchen & Bath Designers Robin Rigby Fisher CMKBD/CAPS

Here is a link that might be useful: Floor layout help, old house, smallish kitchen

Ranges are the worst thing for aging in place - my parent have one they can't use because it requires leaning down, around or over a big open oven door. What works is a wall oven with a side-hinged door that you can walk right up to and not have to lean down to use. If you don't have room for a full-height cabinet, even installed under the countertop these are easier to use. Glide-out racks help too, even with drop-down doors. The GE double oven that fits in a 30"x30" space also works well undercounter because the top oven integrates the controls so the oven cavity comes right up to the top of the oven, instead of below about 6" of control panel. If you must use a range, make it one with a small upper oven so it's reasonably easy to access from walkers or wheelchairs, or just standing up without leaning downward. I'm much younger but have back problems so I notice all these things.

I would flip the room with stove under window to make venting easier as it's on an outside wall. If you google "range under window" or similar search terms, you'll find hundreds of pictures of kitchens with cooktops under windows with hoods. It looks nice and is very do-able.

If you put range under window and can spare the floor space without crowding that U, I would make the range wall 30" deep, or close to it. This will give you more space behind range to window so the window won't need regular cleaning.

Edited to add: Several folks have posted since I finally pressed Submit for my post and they have excellent ideas. Only go with mine if proper venting is a problem with cooktop on inside wall.

This post was edited by funkycamper on Wed, Jan 21, 15 at 15:08

Your points about wall ovens are valid, lee676, but given that the bedrooms are upstairs, the only bathroom downstairs is a powder room and the laundry room is not on the main floor, I don't see this as a home suitable for aging in place. But maybe I misinterpreted what the OP meant when he wrote, "Just two of us now, but I want the kitchen to function for a family of four, too, because, well, we won't live here forever."

I see Jillius made the same observations about aging in place. I was busy composing my previous post and didn't see hers until just now.

Yikes! Lots to chew on now.

First, Lisa_a - Thank you so much. You found it! I looked for a week and nothing. You would think at least searching for 'rmtdoug' would show a thread I started, but no, it didn't for me. Nothing else worked either. Sorry all my pictures are gone from it. Don't know why; they are all there in Photobucket. I must have moved them or something.

lee676, others - Our take on aging in place is that we plan to live here until one of us is unable to negotiate the stairs. It's true that ranges are not the best for old people but by the time neither of us could bend down to use it, we will be on our way out anyway. We both understand that the house could not be modified to fix the stairs. Although we don't know the future, I am hoping for at least 20 more years before we would have to move. I'm perfectly healthy so far and my wife's illness is not mobility related and never will be. Thanks for everyone's concerns but we're stuck here until something changes.

Okay, range vs wall oven: To clarify, I am only planning one large oven, either a range or a wall oven + cooktop. A speed oven is just out there somewhere but hasn't found a place in my heart yet. We live pretty slowly. I'm not too concerned about not having one.

So, does anyone think having a slightly elevated wall oven next to a cooktop adds enough function to justify doing it?

Which leads me to my next point: I want the fridge where it is because it fits there, it works there for the workflow of food into and out of the kitchen, and it can be recessed as far back as I need to keep it from sticking out. The difference in locations is about 4 feet. A fridge (or a floor-to-ceiling oven cabinet) on the inside wall creates a blind spot turning the corner into the dining room. I don't see that as being safe. I'd rather have a countertop at that location.

funkycamper - The house ceiling joists run in the long dimension of the room. Venting the cooktop from the inside wall will be easy and I can put an in-line fan way out at the outside wall (how sweet is that!). I'm not sure exactly, but I'm pretty sure venting the cooktop over that window would not be to code. It has to be a certain number of feet away from an opening window.

Lisa_a - The sink under the window. That raises all these questions that I, a guy, can't answer. Does it work better there? That's a lot of space over to the cooktop (nice to have, though). Do I want to prep to the right of the sink or to the left? Do I want an appliance garage there or shelving? What would a family want there? We only own a toaster and that will probably go over on the cleanup counter with the MW.

One advantage to moving that sink is that I now have the option to make that counter or the cooking counter up to 30 inches wide, only one or the other, though. Would that be worth it, anyone?

Jillius - Thank you for that compliment. Some of your ideas over the past year are in this plan, you know.

Oh yeah, pocket/barn doors: The bath will have one, but putting one on the kitchen wall will have to take some thought. Wouldn't having the monolith of a fridge on the swing side be good enough? Also, when you live in a small house, the issue of doors hitting people and objects gets solved really quickly. The door will have a window in it, so hopefully that will help with hitting actual people.

This post was edited by rmtdoug on Wed, Jan 21, 15 at 17:50

I much prefer Lisa's plan, sorry. Just because you write "prep" on a stretch of counter doesn't mean you will actually prep there. You will typically prep between a prep sink and your cooktop. So that nice long stretch of counter in Lisa's plan is great. My only other suggestion would be to have the trash more accessible from that prep zone. Most people tend to create a lot of trash during prep.

but, but...it says prep. I read it on the internet. I must prep there!

Actually, you make perfect sense. No need to apologize. In many of my layouts I had the sink there. Your input will go a long way towards solving this. Do you think 24 inches is enough to the left of the sink for the fridge landing zone?

Not to worry, I do have plans to put a trash pullout somewhere over there. Still need to place all the fixtures first.

How's this?

Prep sink in the corner, MW and single oven next to DW and DR doorway shrank a little and moved towards the cooktop.

Well, if it's not an opening window, not a problem, right? But it's a moot point. If venting is easy from inside, there are better options anyway. I like Lisa's plan, too. But I would just get a range so the cooktop can be moved down farther along the wall so there's less butt-kissing for cook and prep chef. Unless, of course, you like that sorta thing, lol.

Sena01 - Now that's interesting. Thank you. It does ease the issue of the oven door interfering completely with the doorway. It looks like you have double ovens there. I would need space for dishes from the DW, so I think it would have to be single oven with room above. Oh, I forgot that part. Wife must have open plate racks, you know, the ones where they stand on edge in the little slots. That apparently is not negotiable, and I have nowhere else to put them but on that wall. Isn't this fun?

The corner sink is something I have played with for quite a while. I am looking for perspectives on that. My biggest concern is how much storage I lose in that corner compared to sinks on either side.

funkycamper - Spooning, back in the day ;) I hate to say it, but you are probably correct, a range is still the logical choice. My understanding is that range ovens already sit higher than a wall oven in the same space and a two-oven range would be even easier to access. Also, the older my wife gets, the less she bakes, and all I ever do with an oven is broil stuff. It's hard to fully utilize a big oven with only two people.

A cooktop and toaster oven would suffice for us, but I doubt anyone with a family would accept that arrangement, so it's back to a range at least.

Here's an updated layout with the prep sink under the window. Changes are:

-30" counter depth on the prep sink side (that's the maximum, could be narrower)
-moved the range to allow 30" drawers on the doorway side and 18" in the corner. The 30" counter should allow plenty of room for hot food landing for the dinning room.

{{gwi:2137497}}

Going with a range, especially a double oven range, is smart, IMO (and not just because I suggested it, ;-) ). The smaller oven will suit your needs well.

You may have told us this before but what is the reason for the door between pantry and kitchen? Is it because the pantry area isn't heated? Have you considered ditching that door?

If that's a no-go, I would at least switch the the exterior door's swing. As it is now, you have to enter the pantry farther in order to close the door before you can enter the kitchen. If this is how you enter with bags of groceries, that would be a nuisance, IMO.

Switching the door swing would give you a more direct route from outside into your kitchen.

Current:
{{gwi:2137498}}

Swapped door swing:
{{gwi:2137499}}

Oops, I forgot to address your question about corner sinks. They can be a good use of a corner, especially since corner storage isn't always as efficient as standard cabs. However, they also use up more wall space on each wall. You can likely get by with a 36" corner sink cab for a prep sink but I doubt you can go much smaller, at least not if you want a prep sink larger than a bar sink (not very useful for prepping). The other concern I'd have is how easy it will be to access the shelves and appliance garage (btw, you can have both. The bottom shelf would be the top of the appliance garage). If you're tall, this may not be an issue. I'm not and I have a very difficult time cleaning behind my corner sink (42" corner cab). I'd never be able to reach shelves on the wall above it. Mock it up and see how it works for you.

Searching for past threads is always easier if you do a Google search not a forum search. GW's software is old and very basic and a horrible search tool. Type in whatever it is you want to search and add "kitchen forum" and you'll get garden web results (not just kitchen forum). I think I found your previous thread on the 2nd page of the results. Or maybe it was the third. Anyhoo, a Google search is always more effective and faster.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Thu, Jan 22, 15 at 0:32

Lisa - ha! The doors are goofy, I agree. My plan is to leave them as is and see how it works. I do need a kitchen door because the porch/pantry is unheated and also sits outside current property line setbacks, so I can't do much there.

One positive about the current door's swing is that it would require you to close the back door before opening the kitchen door. I've had legendary battles with my wife about her leaving outside doors open. Another reason not to change it :)

Appreciate the comments on the sink/corner. I will use a minimum 24" sink. I agree, mockups will be required to sort out that space, but if everyone agrees the sink should be there, I think I can run with that.

I'm pretty sure I tried Google. I honestly don't know why I could not find that thread. I even tried searching using Robotropolis because that is the one full user name I could still remember and still got nothing.

I also like how Lisa has repositioned the prep sink, but it effectively makes this a one-cook kitchen. Someone will be able to clean up while someone else cooks, but you couldn't really have two people cooking because you essentially have just one counter space on which to work.

Would that work for you? Do you ever have help while cooking?

Your subsequent changes -- deepening one counter so two people could definitely not stand side by side and work at the long counter stretch (this probably wouldn't have been comfortable anyway, but it definitely won't be with the one deeper counter) and shortening the 36" space where a second cook might have worked next to the stove to 30" -- just really solidify the one-cook kitchen aspect.

What lisa is suggesting would be really quite nice for one cook and is a truly elegant little tweak, but what you had proposed at the beginning does make two cooks feasible. Someone could work between the fridge and prep sink, and the other one could work between the prep sink and stove.

It doesn't sound as if you have a second person cooking most of the time, but you might want to allow for the option? Perhaps a compromise would be to do the prep sink as Lisa suggested, but keep the space next to the stove at 36". Just so a rare second cook could conceivably set up there and use the stove and clean-up sink to prep/cook without getting in the primary cook's hair.

Two more things:

1) Is moving the window (and therefore the sink below it) on the clean-up wall an option?

a. It would be nice to have more room between the sink and the wall. As it is, there isn't much room to set down dishes there, and I can see feeling squished by that wall as you stand at the sink. Plus, if there were more room between the sink and wall there, you could walk in the door and immediately drop groceries on that stretch of counter.

b. Right now the dishwasher is opening into the middle of things, effectively blocking passage into the kitchen from both doorways. If the clean-up sink were in the middle instead, the dishwasher could be to either side (rather than in the middle), and it would block just one doorway while open as opposed to both at once as it is now. You could pick the less-trafficked doorway as the one that gets blocked.

c. Visually, having the clean-up sink and window centered on that wall would be nice. From the other end of the kitchen, you'd have a good view of that. Usually symmetry is at odds with function, but here function happens to be symmetrical, which would be exciting if it can happen.

2) A range with two ovens sounds like a great solution for you. We are also getting that, and I've read all sorts of reviews saying how they ended up almost exclusively using the smaller, higher oven. Apparently it heats up a lot faster (since it is small), and most people don't need the huge capacity of a big oven for daily cooking. For someone who just broils, that sounds perfect. I can see how the height of the littler oven is more ergonomic too.

By the way, this was nice of you to say:

>Jillius - Thank you for that compliment. Some of your ideas over the past year are in this plan, you know.

(It also made me laugh to realize the accidental narcissism of complimenting my own ideas. Not too long ago, I heaped some lavish praise on my sister's earrings only to have her tell me I'd bought them for her. Ha.)

Although the rendering shows double ovens, as I indicated in my previous post, one of them is a MW. But since your wife wants plate racks there most you can have can be a raised wall oven or go with a range as others suggested.

As to corner sink, I believe it will be more open than having the sink b/w the fridge and the corner. I guess you'll have about 6' on the right side of fridge for cabs (excluding the 10" recess). So the prep sink would either be quite close to the fridge (if you have 36" corner cab), or quite close to the corner (if you have a blind corner) to work comfortably imo. You'd need a 41-42 corner cab to fit a sink that you can use with a straight 24" cab. That leaves you with about 30" b/w the fridge and the corner sink, which I think is better than the other alternative.

If there's a reason I missed then I apologize...but has anyone discussed the notion of flipping the kitchen area and dining room?

Just wanted to mention that I have a 16" round prep sink in the corner and am very happy with it and use it daily. What makes our kitchen a 2 cook space is the clean up sink also adjacent to the range on the opposite leg of our "U," which you will not have.

While I prefer the look of the prep sink under the window or in the corner, if you regularly have 2 people cooking at the same time, perhaps it would make sense to place the sink on the long wall so that people can share it and prep on the right and left of the sink.

I'm working right now, but I'm listening very, very closely.

Hmmm..the dilemma in my mind right now is whether the single long run of counter is preferable to shorter but equal runs of counter? That question can only be answered here with discussion. Given the fact it's a small house and small kitchen, are there any specific tasks done in a kitchen that require more than 4-5 feet of counter?

remodelfla - Yeah, we thought about that. My conclusion is that it would be a plumbing nightmare to swap and cost well above my pay grade in both time and money. Also, the windows in the dining room are too low for counters and my office sits below the dining room = major surgery.

Rmtdoug, if this were my home, I would not like any of the above proposed plans. The issue for me is that even with a prep sink in the U, one would be frequently crossing the floor with dirty dishes to access the primary sink and DW. I would much prefer to have my main clean-up zone within the U. With your small kitchen, function should outweigh esthetics. My proposed layout for you would be as follows:
1. Starting with the left leg of the U, a 3" wide support would be by the door (to help support stone counters), next a 24" dishwasher and then a 30" wide farmhouse single bowl sink in a 30" cabinet. This should leave you either 24" or 27" to the corner; I couldn't tell which from your drawing. Obviously this places your sink at part window, part wall but that is the sacrifice to provide ample working space on each side.
2. For the middle of the U, center a 30" cooktop with drawers beneath. It seems to me that drawers would be needed in this area and that it would not be a hardship to place a wall oven outside the U. You should then be able to run the venting for the range hood to the left to access an outside wall.

3. The right leg of the U would have the refrigerator at the end where it would be close to the dining area.
   4. The straight long run would have a wall oven with a separate microwave above it. While not ideal, I lived with double wall ovens by a doorway for 30 years and never came close to having a mishap. Another suggestions is to place a pull out wood shelf beneath the MW for ease of checking items when food is pulled out. Whether to have a prep sink in that area would be your call. Since you don't entertain much, I would do without and use that area as a small dining area for you and your wife to eat breakfast or lunch, or to be seated when prepping in that area. Counters here at table height would be better for ease of seating with older folks. The right side of the counter could swing up or down (the hinge would be on the wall) to allow a chair to go on the right side and the other person facing the window. Even though you don't plan to age in place here, having a small eating area in the kitchen would allow you to have more options for sleeping downstairs when emergencies develop (i.e., a broken hip).

Anyway, just another perspective for you to "chew on."

By the way, I'm still confused as to where the front door is for this house. I'm assuming by the stairs. Could you clarify that?

Texasgal47 - Is this kind of what you mean?

{{gwi:2137500}}

Our current kitchen has the fridge about that location now and even in such a small kitchen it is a hassle moving food from the fridge to the sink (i.e, picture Dagwood Bumsted making one of his famous sandwiches and moving all that stuff more than arm's length from the fridge) In my perfect kitchen, food from the fridge goes directly to the same counter as the sink without moving your feet.

To answer your other points, all valid by the way, my wife seriously does not like someone behind her when she is at the stove, some sort of phobia maybe, but it is the reality. That is why I have two sinks so far separated. I think she will tolerate me at the main sink while she is in the U cooking at the stove, at least I'm hoping so :) Putting the stove right in the middle would be problematic in that respect.

Second, I'm assuming the greatest number of dirty dishes will come from the dining room. Prep usually involves larger pans, etc, (easier to carry, I think) and knives and small utensils can be washed at the prep sink.

Finally, the front door is in the living room, lower right corner in the first layout pic posted. The kitchen door is used 90% of the time to access the house, but I work at home and the wife does not drive, so we go for days without leaving the yard.

Are you eliminating the half bathroom to move the entry and gain a pantry?

Jillius - Your post sent me on an interesting tangent today. I actually went into the kitchen and stood at the corner where the prep sink would go and really paid attention to my movements while "prepping" at both locations. I immediately noticed something: Turning 90 degrees is a lot easier than turning 180 degrees. That sent me to the internet where I learned that the most dangerous falls with the elderly are when doing 180 degree pivots. It's easy to catch the side of your foot and over you go.

So, at least from an ergonomic standpoint, the sink in the original location is by far the safest. That would eliminate all the 180 degree pivots between the stove and the sink. I measured and there is still about 5 feet of counter space between the sink the the stove. I also dumped the 30" counter...dumb!

I'm still pondering the DW placement. I don't know. I don't see it blocking anything where it is now. In the way, yes, but not blocking.

Lisa_a - With the sink back on the other counter, I think I can fit somewhat of an appliance garage in that corner (see plan below). Putting a single hole faucet to the right of the sink would prevent that from blocking the shelving in the back. That seems to be a solution, no?

Sena01 - You're right, I missed the MW mention. I just saw my wife's dish rack go 'poof' and panicked. There are a lot of dynamics involved with remodeling a kitchen. One would have to write a book to fully explain everything. Building from scratch is a lot easier.

controlfreakecs - How does your sink compare to a 20-24"? Is it as easy to fit things into? I do like curves and my kitchen will hopefully have pleasantly soft lines.

robotropolis - Where are you? I want you to see the seed you planted is starting to grow :)

Okay, here's the latest plan:

{{gwi:2137501}}

Voila - Not really possible. The entry and bath violate current property setbacks, so I can't physically change the structure and there is nowhere else to put a bath downstairs. We live in town, so any size pantry is fine, plus we have a nice dry, cool basement with lots of room for storage.

Rmtdoug, yes you drew my proposed plan exactly correct, thank you. However, it is obvious that you and your wife know what works for you, and a final plan is close at hand. (Yes !) One more question, how do you plan to vent your range hood, with a carbon filter? Your proposal puts it on an inside wall in a two story house.

By the way, I'm with Julius on the need for more counter where you have the main sink. Clean up takes a lot of space. Also, your current plan has no convenient landing zone for groceries coming in. A full counter run by the main sink would take care of that. If there's room here, you could install an under counter mw drawer to make that happen.

I moved a sink from under window to the corner for more prep room. Inserted a large butcher block cutting area under the window. Prep and cleanup for me is used more than the sink itself, plus I had a wonderful window to look out while working. The wood was actually from an outdated chrome based table (80s). You can find these easily and the wood is solid, along with being very inexpensive. I liked the corner sink and found there was more room for items in the back, although my norm is nothing not being used. There was enough room for a 36" on an angle, my wasn't changed, so it remained the same size.

Have had a double oven range for almost 10 years (2 due to moving). I saves money, heats quickly and cooks great. The only thing used in the bottom oven is large roasts, turkey, etc. Mine also has a toast option which eliminated a toaster on the counter and great room for all types of toasting along with a dozen pieces if wanted. Grilled cheese, bagels, thick slices of loaves.

With a small kitchen, does 2 sinks make sense? I've never had this option and wonder what the positives are.

Texasgal47 - You are welcome! I'm glad I understood you correctly. It's true that we know what works for us; we've lived here 15 years, but we are not you, so it's important to get as much perspective as possible. I find every suggestion invaluable. The collective knowledge and experience here is amazing and the neat thing is that everyone can benefit from it, not just me.

As for the range hood, the inside wall will be easy to vent. The ceiling joists run on the long axis of the kitchen. I will use an inline fan at the outside wall. It should be a really quiet setup.

I'm still a little unclear what everyone is meaning regarding the cleanup counter with the large sink, so I will share my current thoughts in more detail.

1. There is 8 feet, 11 inches of counter with a 30" sink. 15 inches to the right and about 5 feet to the left. I would think there would be plenty of room to set dishes for cleaning. I can't make the counter longer unless I remove the sink.

2. The sink does not have to be under the window but I need drawer space to the left of the DW and I do want the recycle to be next to the kitchen door. We create a huge amount of recycle! The 15" counter above the recycle will be the drainboard for hand-washed large items, etc. (I measured stuff already, it's wide enough)

3. The window can be moved or enlarged, but that reduces the only wall I really, really need for uppers. My wife's dish rack must go there..apparently :( And I find glasses and cups to be more accessible above the counter rather than below, but that's just my preference.

4. Groceries on the counter. I never do it. The bags are always put on the floor. I almost ruined my shoulder lifting a heavy bag of groceries up over the side of the bed of my truck, and lifting the bags up to counter height would risk the same injury.

5. The microwave is planned for placement either above the counter or below it. It will not sit on the counter, nor will much else if I can help it :)

Technicolor - Thank you for another vote of confidence for a double oven range. I probably would have missed that had not everyone encouraged me in that direction. It truly is the best solution for this kitchen. I think two sinks are a great improvement, and in our house, given my wife's health, washing everything is very important. I probably rinse/wash my hands 20 times a day. The upside is that I've had exactly three colds in the last 15 years.

I'm still mulling over placing the prep sink as a corner sink. Sena01 has offered some very good options. With a normal 90 degree inside corner with 24" counters, the reach to the far corner of the shelves is already around 30" at counter height, and it gets worse the higher you go. A corner sink would increase that even more. In this case, the distances might make a corner sink unworkable. I'm still working on that. I also plan one cutting board that fits inside the sink to extend a solid prep surface from the fridge all the way over to the stove should that be necessary. Your point about using the prep and cleanup more than the sink itself is appreciated.

Sorry for all this rambling, but as Texasgal47 said, it's very close, and I want to make sure everyone can understand fully what I'm thinking and whether I'm making the best choices for us and still end up with a layout that another small family might enjoy using, if it ever came to that.

Whether you go with a corner sink or not, it might be a good idea to consider a pull-down shelf for the uppers in that deeper area.

Here is a link that might be useful: puldown shelf for overhead storage

You know, sena, I've never seen that before. You're a gem! Thank you. I will investigate this more.

"Lisa_a - With the sink back on the other counter, I think I can fit somewhat of an appliance garage in that corner (see plan below). Putting a single hole faucet to the right of the sink would prevent that from blocking the shelving in the back. That seems to be a solution, no?"

Are you suggesting a faucet in the right rear corner? I think that's a great solution, rmtdoug. Plus the pull-down shelves sena suggested.

Fair warning: they are expensive. At least I thought so. But IMO, they are worth it if it means you can reach up-high items without climbing on a step stool, risking the chance of a fall.

Lisa - Yes, yes! That's exactly what I propose doing. I like those faucets with the spring on the neck, forget what they are called, but they work as a pull down and are single hole. And thank you for bringing up an appliance garage. I hadn't really thought about it that much and that corner is the perfect place for one. In fact, tonight I was looking at what is there now and thinking I could put a garage at least 24 inches wide, or at least enough room to hold two devices.

> There is 8 feet, 11 inches of counter with a 30" sink. 15 inches to the right and about 5 feet to the left. I would think there would be plenty of room to set dishes for cleaning. I can't make the counter longer unless I remove the sink.

We aren't talking about making the overall counter longer. We are talking about making that 15" section wider. As in, move the sink over. 5 ft. is more than enough next to a clean-up sink, and 15" is not enough. So make it 3' and change on one side and 3' and change on the other side. Then you will have enough on both sides.

With a clean-up sink especially, you want at least 24" of counter on BOTH sides. Preferably 36" on both sides if you can swing it, which you can. It allows you to pile dirty things on one side, wash or rinse them, and then put clean/rinsed things on the other side. It is very awkward, both in terms of the motions you go through while washing or rinsing and in terms of not mixing dirty and clean dishes, to have to put them both on the same side of the sink for lack of space on the other.

rmtdoug, I can't really compare my 16" round sink to a 20" square, because I've only had the one. I chose that size because it fit well in my space and would hold my colander. I went with round so I could keep the 90 degree corner.

It is pretty exclusively used fruit and vegetable washing or filling to do a quick defrost. I tend to prep meats at the clean-up sink.

Actually, your layout would nearly be identical to mine if you were able to put fridge on the wall you currently have your cleanup sink. My range is in the middle of my "U" with clean-up on the right leg and prep sink in the left corner.

Jillius, I kind of though that's what you and the others were inferring. I played around with the cleanup wall this afternoon. As you will see below, there is not a lot of wiggle room.

I did manage to get 20 inches of counter to the right of the sink, but at the expense of storage to the left, dining room side, which I really need.

Here's a pic from the perspective of standing at the prep counter on the other side of the kitchen. I shrunk the sink bowl to 25 inches (my absolute minimum) and widened the recycle pullout to 18 inches. If I shrunk the recycle back to 15 inches (my preference) I might be able to squeeze in a narrow dishrag/soap pullout next to the sink (Ignore all architectural details; this is about placement only):

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Here is the layout plan:

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My wife actually talks about not having a dishwasher at all. We've survived just fine without one, but I told her, well, maybe, but I will put in a cabinet plumbed for a dishwasher no matter what.

Flipping the DW to the other side obviously puts the short counter on the left, all things being equal, and would create all sorts of storage issues, and ultimately would put an expensive dishwasher door at risk from being smashed by the kitchen door.

re: Dishes on counters. I thought that's what dishwashers were for :) We currently never put any dishes on the counter (no room, actually, lol!). We wash as we prep and dirties go in the sink and are always washed well before the next meal.

Frankly, I'm at a loss for what else to try. Obviously, the window has to go!

Controlfreakecs - I see what you mean about not being able to compare them. It sure does fit in a square corner, though. That's pretty neat. Today I measured our largest pans and bowls. 17 x 14 inch baking sheet and 13 inch mixing bowl was what I found. I think a 20'ish inch prep sink and 25 inch (inner bowl size) cleanup sink should work for us.

I like the fireplace. Our house, being so old, will have lots of that in it, if I ever get it finished.

I was just going to suggest measuring your larger items to help determine the size sink you need but you've beaten me to that. Might I suggest that you consider an 18" apartment-sized DW? That might be a better compromise for your space.

cf - I have seriously considered it but get cold feet every time I see the prices of decent ones, as well as navigating the general mindset that DW's must be 24". It could really affect resale if they insist on a 24".

Could a family of four live with an 18"? We all know they could live with no dishwasher, of course, but how would they react to that? It borders on idiosyncratic and I am trying really hard not to do that in the kitchen. The rest of the house will have plenty of that.

Anyway, an 18" DW is not outside the realm of doing, however. It would allow a 36" drawer base. The kids could sleep in that.

Jillius - My comment on flipping the DW with the short counter on the left was obviously not well thought out. I need to go to bed.

Here is what you suggested earlier. I moved the window, but I can make no promises I can move it that far yet. Will have to take some measurements on the outside. I do like it visually, but is this really more functional? The kitchen door swing will have to be reversed, obviously, and even then it will hit the DW door but at least it would hit more from the front and not from the side.

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I do think the dispersal of counter around the sink will be a LOT better for the clean-up use, and I agree with you that it looks nice visually.

The counter dispersal was the main reason I suggested this. I really think only 15" or even 18" between the sink and the wall is going to be awkward and annoying. However, setting the issue of the counter aside, the dishwasher placement -- middle, left, or right -- is more of a judgement call for you.

In the middle, it impedes both doorways. I agree it's not a full blockage of both doorways, but for me (a clumsy person), impeding is worse than blocking. Because if I can squeeze by the dishwasher door, I will try, fail, and bash my shins. And if I tried to do it fast enough, probably bash my shins, trip, and kill myself. If dishwasher door were just flat-out blocking my way entirely (as opposed to merely impeding), I'd either have to enter the room at another time or close the dishwasher so my way is completely open to enter. The fact that I am totally uncoordinated would never come into play.

If placed to the left, the dishwasher blocks the dining room door, but is out of the way of everything else. This means you can easily and freely use the entire kitchen and go in and out of the pantry while the dishwasher is open.

To the right, the dishwasher blocks the pantry door, but is out of the way of everything else. This means you can easily and freely use the entire kitchen (one of the fridge doors couldn't open quite all the way, but you could still use the fridge) and go in and out of the dining room while the dishwasher is open.

So, if you were only considering the dishwasher placement, you'd just have to decide between those three options (middle, left, or right) which works best for you. As I said, this is more of a judgement call. Is it better for you to keep the use of of all doors and walkways at all times, even if it makes some agility/grace necessary to use them, or is it better for you keep only one walkway open, but having it be wide open and easy to use. And if you pick the latter, then is it better to have the pantry door always open or the dining room door always open?

This decision would be easy if you go in and out of the pantry 10% of the time and in and out of the dining room 90% of the time or vice versa. So deciding to block a door and which door to block would be a no-brainer. But if both doors are in constant use, that makes keeping the dishwasher in the center more attractive.

However, I think the counter space weirdness caused by having the dishwasher in the center makes that option so unattractive that I would be looking exclusively at which door I want to block.

If you are thinking that it makes more sense to have the dishwasher block the pantry, you could have both doors -- pantry and exterior -- swing out. Or you could make the pantry door a glass door so someone coming in can see if the dishwasher is open rather than discovering that upon opening the door into it. Or you could just not have a door to the pantry -- it could be a doorway only.

(As an aside, I'd personally rather a bigger sink. There is a difference between the space you need in a sink to simply physically fit your largest pan and the space you need to manipulate it easily as you flip it around washing it. The latter is quite a bit larger.)

Jillius - You have outlined my options very concisely, thank you for being so generous with your thoughts.

I'll need a few days to sort this out and I have a question to ask the general forum about how people use their small pantries before I proceed.

Oh, I can move the window without any problem. The siding layout will allow it.

Rmtdoug....love what you are doing with the place! I think a biiiig single bowl 24" to 27" sink will be lots of space. I'd rather that than an 18" dishwasher with a 36" sink. To me, the 18" landing space to the right would feel okay, maybe a little tight, particularly with more landing space to the left. I'd put a dish drainer to the right and call it a day for the counter there.
On the other hand, don't worry about centring the sink on the window, as long as it's pretty much under the window you'd be fine. So if you wanted you could almost just switch the dw to the right and not even move the window.

I think your original cleanup counter with 15 trash, sink, 24" DW, etc would be fine. DW in the middle of that counter would be much better than having it near any of the doors imo. You can go to DR or pantry from the prep sink or range even when the DW door is open.

I have a galley kitchen. All cleanup, prep, cooking is on one side of the kitchen, the other wall is mainly storage. Anything I handwash go to the 17.7" (45 cm) counter b/w the sinks and the raised DW. Any veggies I washed for prep wait in a colander inside my small sink 13.7" (35 cm). So I have a total of 31.4" for all of that and I'm fine with this arrangement even when we have guests. Since you'll have a separate prep sink and prep area, I don't think you have anything to worry about your cleanup counter.

robotropolis - I'm so glad you approve. I'm much better off because of all the help I've gotten here. It's going to be a long journey though. Hope we are all still here at the end.

Sena01 - Thanks. Currently, I am working with the DW in the middle, mostly to avoid messing with the door situation more than anything else.

Jillius - I am going to move the window. You made the right call. You were concerned about getting around the DW door (yes, our household can relate to klutziness, too) but I discovered last night that in one of my placements I measured 28" clearance from the DW door to the corner of the counter and I also had a full 24" of counter to the left of the cleanup sink....and could get a 27" sink bowl size....and still had about 3" of room to slide things left or right and still maintain 1" clearance for the walls! Amazingly, it all fit.

Here's my latest layout. I'm slowly starting to work with actual base cabinets now. Using Ikea sizes at this time as that is what I had always planned for the boxes and drawers, but I will do my own fronts. I also dropped the fridge allowance for now to 33":

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Oh, I think this plan is great. It looks to me, but I'm no expert, but it seems to resolves your main concerns. Bravo!

It looks like you still have a bit of a dance in the porch/pantry with those doors. Could you change the way that the exterior door swings? If it swung to the left, no more dance.

Since some of your groceries might not get past the pantry, do you have space next to for a small counter to unload pantry items. No sense in taking them into the kitchen to unload and then back out again to store them, right?

Thanks. It's good progress. If I leave the dishwasher where it is, I will have to move the microwave because dishware will go on that side, but some things are very much up in the air still.

Lisa_a in an earlier post above very kindly drew a diagram of the porch door swinging the other way and how the pathway will be much better, but I'm not going to change it until I'm positive the plan is finished. Please tell me that will happen, right?

This is bit random, but I thought instantly of how you said, "I do like curves and my kitchen will hopefully have pleasantly soft lines" when I saw this faucet.

So I thought you might like this faucet?

American Standard Colony

Thank you, Jillius. I do like it and it comes in black, even! I'll keep their faucets in mind. I think we might use a higher arc faucet, though. We'll work that out over time. I have been following your short faucet thread as I too will want one similar on the prep sink.