It is not difficult to overwater succulents in gritty mix. I have had many different plants get overwatered in gritty. However, a lot of succulents can tolerate a lot of water if planted in gritty because of the increased drainage.

I think the real problem is that it is very difficult for experienced growers to diagnose a plant problem from hundreds of miles away over the internet and advise in a way that a novice can understand. There are a lot of people on this board from all over the world that each have decades of experience growing plants. Some have been growing in aggregate media for a long time. They can look at a plant, the pot, the siting of the plant, the local microclimate and take care of plants easily if they are on site. They also know what a plant needs based on what has been done to it. They know that sometimes you get a beat up plant and you just need to stick it in their nursery for a year or two before it is going to look presentable. Novices, not so much. Novices are going to fail and going to fail a lot.( All of the very experienced people here have plenty of failures.) That's not because the advice they get is bad, but because they really have no experiential foundation upon which to judge which bit of advice is the appropriate one based on the totality of issues that the advice givers are not privy to.

One of the selling points of grit that Al and others here use is that it's more difficult to over-water. Can you give me some specific examples of the circumstances under which one could easily over-water grit, Nil? To avoid confusion, let's stick with Al's 1-1-1 recipe since not all grit is created equal, and Al's mix is consistent and easy to look up.

I'm not sure what you mean about plants tolerating "a lot of water because of the increases drainage." Increased drainage means water drains, therefore there isn't as much water. The problem of too much water is reduced gas exchange which suffocates roots. Gritty mixes like Al's allow gas exchange, and thus prevent the root death and rot associated with wet soils.

Keep in mind that Al has pointed out that you can vary the ratios to increase or decrease water retention; the point is not that you're mixing it 1:1:1, but that you're using similar particle sizes for all the ingredients.

That said, there hasn't been a lot of guidance or explicit discussion on the results people have gotten with different ratios. I think that discussion would be useful. I'm doing an experiment right now with two Echeveria cuttings, one in 1:1:1 and one in 100% DE.

Kwie - I think you were probably referring to my under watered echeverias and Jade plant. I must say, as a novice, I'm still adapting to my watering habits as well as learning more about the gritty mix as the weather changes too.

I wouldn't say my succulents are failing, I think these incidents are happening in particular to my experimenting of reducing my watering frequency. I think one needs to learn to find that balance like many experienced growers here accumulate by making mistakes over the years.

I like experimenting, and I just bought a food scale to start weighing my plants, so that I can keep track of my watering.

I think what nil suggests is that succulents afterall are drought tolerant plants, so it's ok if they are underwatered, because they can recover better from being underwatered than from rot when they are overwatered. But I think the danger you present is when the plant is underwatered for a prolonged period of time affecting the health of the plant. Hence finding that balance is important. Bernard

I agree, Andy. I've done a bit of playing around with ratios and different compositions, (even pure DE), but since I hadn't standardized my variables, I'm ambivalent about the results. Like you, I also plan to do some experimenting this summer. It will be interesting to compare notes, and get some conversations started about this. I look forward to it.

Sorry Bernard, I hadn't meant to single anyone out. If you were the only one who experienced this, I wouldn't post about it (I had a bear of a time troubleshooting my own grit issues). The example was an older post about an outdoor plant in terra cotta (coincidentally also a PvN, if I recall). It stood out in my mind because the grower seemed to combine every anti-over-watering technique. I wonder whether it survived.

You're right; it's the chronic under-watering that becomes a problem. And if treated correctly, most succulents will recover from under-watering much better than from rot due to over-watering, but either one is disappointing and frustrating, especially when it's a grower's first experience with succulents.

Interesting that you plan to weigh yours. That's one method I used to determine what was going on with one of my tropicals in grit.

Consistent watering is very important. And thorough watering.

After re-potting, maintaining a consistent level of moisture throughout the mix is a key to success. Once a plant is established, one will water much less often, even in small containers.

I have several plants in small bonsai containers - 1-inch deep x 2-inches wide - in different media (pure Turface, pure lava rock, gritty mix) types, and I don't even water those once a day, every other day, or every two days.

The point of a gritty mix is to allow the grower to water frequently and copiously.

Josh

Can you give me some specific examples of the circumstances under which one could easily over-water grit

Think triangle move one leg and the other two legs of a triangle will fall

One leg could be: if it's already been to long ( time sense watering resulting in to dry, if the watering can is to play catch up it's usually been over watered

Two: Higher volumes of water when dormant or resting

Another leg could be: When to warm or hot that high noon cool down drink or sip at any amount can cause some real serious damage

Any leg will do yet anyone at any time may also remove two sides of the over under watering triangle legs

could be if to cold when they water could be to warm or just the wrong time of the year week or month Heck sometimes even the hour will send some into a watery grave there could be problems at any amount at any time.

Keep it simple it's not up to any one person to explain in depth ALL the whens, wheres, how much's how little's, what times or times not to water if a plant already knows. ( In more often than not succulents will tell you even then you don't always have to be at the ready to water them watering can

I hesitate to ask as often as I should but if 93 % of the problem is soil why are so many having problems with a gritty mix/ soil if (what ever % most is ) are forum wide using it . Was there a promise or any guarantee that grit mixes would solve 93 % of every watering problems 100 % of the time?

At 93 % it's difficult for me to imagine the problem would be water if soil had already solved that problem. My guess the remaining 7 % chance of watering mishaps may be the soil testing stick.

Josh, you make an excellent point. I think all the grit issues I've read about (except maybe one) have been with plants that haven't yet become established. That's definitely something we need to point out, preferably in advance, to people new to growing in grit, and it's something to consider when we're trying to help them troubleshoot. Also, since plants aren't normally sold in grit, statistically, there will be more problems with plants that have been recently transferred to it. What I don't ever see with grit is the posts that say something like, "I've had the plant in this same pot and soil for years and it never had this problem before, therefore it can't be the pot or soil." Spent medium is not an issue with grit. :-)

I'm in Texas and I keep my plants outside in the summer, shady lot and most are in window sills and hanging from covered porch, but still a fair amount of sunlight and intense heat. I water almost daily in the middle of summer. Al's mix saved me. I read a lot before switching my plants and went heavy on the small bark chips and Ad-sorb (clay bits), which hold more moisture, less heavy on the granite chips and perlite. It's working! My 'bugaboo' plant (string of pearls) now THRIVES for me. (after four years of losing one a year!). I tend to overwater, splashing the succulents while watering the other plants: ferns, hibiscus, hoyas, annuals, etc. So switching most of my plants over the gritty has saved me tons of heartache. Plant keeping is an ART, and it requires a conscientious eye toward the "voice" of the plant, whether planted in gritty mix or "mud."

I find this interesting because I have found that in certain pots my gritty mix is holding water for well over a week. I recent did some repotting and found some pots with damp media a week after watering. I think you need to learn the differences of your pots, waterings, temp/sun, and learn to read your plants. I shuffle my plants around often to meet their needs. Just pay attention. Play around. And be open to learning.

I recall a couple of years ago, a GW member, who's lament was something to the effect of 'gritty mix is great, but who has time to water plants daily if not more often?'

I also recall when I first tried this gritty mix, it was summertime & I watered *every* dang day. =S

When I pulled my plants out to re-pot in an amended container soil rather than continuing with gritty mix, the root systems were extensive.

Fast forward to the following year, when I pulled plants from an amended container mix to re-pot in gritty, I had no such terrible luck -__-

Root systems were meagerand stingy. Though plants held their own, they did not really grow, just stayed the same size and shape.

Not looking forward to watering this summer so I plan to set up a sprinkler on my patio to cover my plants.

I think it's important to note that OP makes a great point about watering & GM.

=)

Andy - can you specify the 100% DE you are talking about? Is it diatomaceous earth? I recently just got the powdered form and I don't really know how it works, because whenever I water, my gritty mix just flushed it out. So how is it possible to pot plants in powder?

Bernard, DE is also available in a particles size identical to Turface or cat litter. It is sold at auto parts stores as an absorbent meant for oil spills and so on. The maker is generally Moltan, but it is sometimes sold under the dealer's brand name. Read labels because both calcined clay products and diatomaceous earth products are sold side-by-side for the same purpose. I imagine either will work, but you probably want to know which one you're buying.

Bernard I'm using NAPA Floor Dry. It's part #8822 at NAPA auto parts stores. Link below. One caution though, some people have gotten bad batches where it just turns to muck in water. Buy one bag and test it by putting some in a cup filled with water and letting sit overnight. If it hasn't turned to muck you should be fine.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Oil-Absorbent-24-QT-Diatomaceous-Earth-Absorbent//R-NFW88220189041133

Nomen, this is off the subject a little, but do you have any of your own experience/evidence that watering a hot succulent (or any plant) can cause damage? I occasionally read this, but I have never seen it, and I can't imagine what physiology or chemistry could cause it.

I lived for about 20 years in the Arizona desert, and not once did any plant of mine ever suffer from being watered in the heat of the day. Additionally, I'm playing around with heating some of my plants' root systems, including Sans and numerous succulent plantlets, and even with their roots heated to about 95 degrees, they are thriving, even though they are watered regularly at that temperature. They are doing so well that I'm beginning to wonder just how much heat the crazy things want (Anacampseros and Sansevieria are growing tremendously fast in high heat - so much that I feared cooking them). Echeverias tolerate it, but don't seem to be growing any faster at 95 degrees than they did at 75). So, I'm very skeptical about the tales of hot plants going into shock from being watered (except of course for cold water spots on leaves, but that's a different story).

Great thread to reinvigorate!

I switched to Al's gritty mix 1:1:1 in 2011 and it was well worth the effort imo. My various jades are under grow lamps, on window sills and the Hummel Sunsets follow the sun on the balcony.

I water them all the same, every second day year round with no problems. This is what works for me, but I'm no expert and still learning.

I have switched to a perlite/cactus soil mix and have very recently added Qualisorb floor dry (no pumice yet). I am new to C&S, and I am going through a BIG adjustment in my watering habits. I have a very dry climate, but I've never watered any plant I've ever owned indoors more than once a week, usually every couple of weeks. I feel like I need to start a schedule and track what/when I've repotted, what I'm watering and when, so i can learn what these plants require now that I have amended their growing media. I'm actually kind of shocked at how often I have to water, and I am trying to find the balance.

bunkfree, how often were you watering with just the C&S and Perlite mix?

Renee, until recently I've only had a small handful of C&S - all in their original pots (and soil) from the store. Watered them every couple of weeks.

About a month ago came to this forum for help with an aloe and started learning about gritty mixes. I bought quite a few new succulents as well :) I started repotting them and my older ones about 3 weeks ago, so it's been a bit of a crapshow as I learn more and more about proper care. Nothing was done at the same time, so I'm trying to figure out who needs water and who doesn't... I've been tending towards not watering - watered once or twice in 2-3 weeks. Bought a moisture meter last weekend and have been picking up on the watering this past week. Nothing is suffering yet, in fact I think things are going pretty well, but it hasn't been a significant amount of time so I will keep reading and learning. I'm starting to recognize the signs of not enough water, for sure.

is soaking in a bin the best way? I just wonder exactly how much water they actually get to drink when 90% of it runs out the hole.

Succulents will get what they need - they are used to long periods of dry weather, short burst of rain, some getting their moisture only from morning fog...they store plenty in their leaves. I don't think as much as 90% will run out of drainage hole, plenty gets caught in the potting mix. Much better for succulents to sit in drained mix than having 'wet feet' - that is what they are programmed for (dry feet :).

bunkfree, sounds like you and I are on the same path. I am just finishing up my re-potting to C&S with Perlite mix. I'll look forward to your results. I haven't bought a moisture meter...yet. =)

Thanks Rina :) it just feels like 90% maybe lol. They're all showing signs of growth so I'm encouraged by that. One batch went 2 full weeks after repotting and they definitely showed me they were thirsty!!!

Renee - Good to have a newbie comrade to check in with :) every time I use the meter it says "dry" lol but I dont want to water every day!. I checked some of my regular plants just to make sure it actually works ;)

I am not switching to a fully inorganic mix in the foreseeable future. I need to get through this learning curve first, and make sure I don't kill anything.

I'm noticing that the Qualisorb seems to dry fairly fast and is sucking the moisture out of everything (kind of it's "job" I guess hehe). I thought my little leaf pups would be good on a bed of it but many of the roots desiccated in two days!!! :( that's why I asked about the soaking, does it need time to absorb enough water to keep the mix moist enough to last more than a day?

I feel exactly the same about the learning curve. I don't want to make too many changes too quickly. I need to watch and learn. I may sacrifice a few plants, but I figure that's the cost

I've been laying my leaf pups on the cactus/perlite mix with good results. I read somewhere else online that misting them every few days helps since the pups have little to no roots yet and the leaves are drying up.

Comparing to watering 'regular soil', I believe it looks like all the water is draining out :)

The moisture meters are not very accurate, I also bought one when first started with plants but realized that it is not reliable at all. And the tip of it soon detached, so it went into garbage. Unless purchasing a really good quality (and quite pricey), they end up being waste of money.

Qualisorb and Turface hold quite a bit of water (as you noticed it sucks it all in); I have decreased % of Turface in succulent mix. Adjusting amount of turface (or Qualisorb) helps making mix more or less water retentive.

Asked : Nomen, this is off the subject a little, but do you have any of your own experience/evidence that watering a hot succulent (or any plant) can cause damage?

My apologies for the waiting time for my response

It's a welting warm and very sunny day with temps well into the 90's At Apx 1:00 PM a sudden rain storms strikes all your succulents when your not around and wont be around until 5:00 PM the sudden rains ends falling at 3:00 PM During the same time frame The temps then drop to a modest 73 F from the cooling rain but then climb back up to a warmer 88 F quickly after..

Are we all to believe this doesn't ever happen every where there is a succulent in a pot hanging around the adobe and then to agree that such event will also have no ill effects on any succulent ? A statement I can not agree to kindheartedly .

I think you want to ask yourself is Does the succulent that is outside and already sun hardened in the sunny location have the experience to adapt to the sudden changes of outside climatic conditions/ changes I just mentioned with out ill effects ?

It's not wise to water any plant in heat to suddenly cool it

I consider such watering to be the equivalent as a sun bather laying on the beach for three hours until being tossed into the cooler ocean I suppose if that person is use to it someone can easily say the sunbather wont go into shock as I insist they most certainly will.

We also know that most any plant in every species doesn't fair as well with sudden changes of hourly ups and downs in watering and warmer to cooler.

In my experiences is only as small tid bit of information that may be of little to no value to you and maybe even less to all others. No two people will always agree to another persons methods regardless the facts that one person can produce to all others. Even when the results state to me what is common sense is also common scene to you if you think about it long enough it comes down to three things of which none are soils and/or soil less containers These three things are the potted plants location, location and location Time of year is also a consideration depending on each persons zone VS plant zone hardiness

I can understand why the OP wants to address their concerns to others with observations of gritty mix use Common sense tells me that they would need to use higher volumes and more frequent watering during warmer months than what they would use ( or not use) during cooler months. Also understanding that cooler air also carries more moisture content in it the same cooler air can also ( potentially speaking) deliver more moisture to a potted succulent that specializes in getting and holding on to moisture from the air.

I don't follow most of your post, but I've never had any trouble watering warm or hot plants. They don't have nervous systems, so don't experience shock as vertebrates do. I was just wondering if you had any real, rather than hypothetical, experience with it.

You might check your information- warm air holds more moisture than cool air. That's why plants tend to dry out in the summer- evaporation.

Plants have their own ways of experiencing shock, like transplant shock which can collapse a plant or cutting & same can happen from thirst/heat. Human type nervous system not needed for that.

Ever water a Conophytum on a warm sunny summer day ?

You ever get a sudden brain freeze from eating ice cream to fast ? Why do humans have a not needed nervous system as we all seem to have a nervous system ?

Almost as sensitive as most any human on the same earth every plant on earth has an internal system that does feel climatic changes both sudden changes and slower changes for each season to the season.