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dangingrey

Sub Panel Wiring Neutral

10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago

I ran out of room in my panel and so I put in a subpanel. I am very familiar with how to do as I have done it before in a different house and in a garage. Usually when I am running a subpanel I am able to get my neutral to fit in the bus bar or add a lug to the bar that fits the wire. In this case with a full main panel there wasn't enough room to add a lug and the only lugs left didn't fit the #2 wire I was using so I simply stripped a little more insulation of the wire and unwound the neutral back just far enough that I could put it in two lug that are next to each other and then with some electric tape (white) I covered up any exposed wire for safety purposes. I am just curious if that meets code?

Comments (17)

  • 10 years ago

    That is what I have used in the past. Unfortunately in this panel there isn't the space to add one. I have two laundry rooms, one upstairs and one in the basement, add to that the stove and there is a already a lot of thick neutral wires taking up space.

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    What kind of panel? Some panels have the ability to add a completely additional bar.

  • 10 years ago

    It is a Westinghouse panel from the late 80's. There is no room for additional bar and there isn't room for additional lugs which is why I hooked it up the way I did and why I am wondering if it is legal. From a theoretical standpoint it is 100% ok as my neutral is fully hooked up and I am not funneling the current down into a couple strands of wiring. Therefore keeping the integrity of the wire otherwise I would be downsize the wiring and I can see the issues there.

  • 10 years ago

    It's illegal. You can't parallel conductors like that.


  • 10 years ago

    Ok. I think though that you don't quite understand what I did. I am not paralleling conductors as I only have one conductor. I have one #2 stranded copper wire that comes into the main panel. I don't have a lug large enough to handle the #2 strand so I unraveled it back a half inch and split it between two lugs that are next each other on the bus bar.

  • 10 years ago

    I did more research and I think I solved my issue.

    http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Power-Mark-Plus-Grounding-Lug-for-Load-Centers-TGL20CP/100153918

    This is essentially what I did anyways by untwisting the wire and using two lugs but this will look better if I ever decide to have it inspected. Anyone have any issues with these?

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    I understand what you are doing, and it **IS** illegal. You split the conductor into two smaller ones. That **IS** paralleling conductors. It's not permitted at sizes less than 1/0.

    The reason I asked what panel is because such solutions as above do exist in some cases (as are the options in many cases of REPLACING the existing bus bars with differing ones). Alas the Westinghouse (now Eaton) panels do not have the latter option (at least not in a way that helps, all the bars have differing conmbinations but none have more than one #2 terminal).


    What you show is probably your best solution, but it is also ILLEGAL. That adapter is only listed for GE panels.

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    To clarify if I was using a larger diameter (lower gauge number) wire then it would be legal?

    I just grabbed the easiest link I could find. I will do some research into an Eaton one. Does brand to brand matter? I ask because I have done work before that has passed inspection where I had a panel from company A and I added a lug bar like you suggested from company B and the electrical inspector had no issue with it.

    The paralleling conductors is interesting to me as I understand what you are saying but I don't understand how it affects the circuits as a whole as there is no isolation between the lugs and therefore I have 100% contact on the neutral line and I am not creating a situation where an excessive amount of current can be placed on an undersized line which would lead to heat buildup and potentially a fire. I will have to pull out my circuits textbooks and see if I can find the issue with it.

  • 10 years ago

    "To clarify if I was using a larger diameter (lower gauge number) wire then it would be legal?"

    NO

    You would need TWO 1/0 wires which would still be bigger than the #2 you have which would defeat the purpose. If you split a 1/0 wire in half, it is no longer a 1/0 wire. The reason for such codes when running wire in parallel is that if one has more resistance than the other, it will heat up and have even more resistance, which in turn causes more of the unbalanced current to take the path of least resistance. This puts too much current through only one of the conductors in parallel, causing it to also heat up. Tell me what you would do if the wire had an uneven number of strands? There are a few other technical reasons that also create extra heat that I won't go into here because they just make for more questions that the answer will be "because they were engineered to work for that purpose"

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    "Does brand to brand matter?"

    YES, because they were ONLY engineered to work for that purpose for which they are listed by "UL".

    That does not mean that some things aren't listed to go into multiple enclosures. A ground bar and a bonding screw to the enclosure is fairly universal as long as it doesn't connect to a bus bar that connects two neutral bars on either side of the panel together, for example. A lug adaptor may or may not even be sized for the same termination spacing, and bending the prongs to fit is BAD. You may or may not find some lug adaptors that are listed for multiple brands panels.

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    Even under the exceptions, each side of the split wire would have to be capable of carrying the entire load. BUT, even where the NEC gives permission to run conductors in parallel, it does NOT give permission to "split" a single conductor's strands because that produces eddy currents that have not been engineered into the wire size calculations.

    Exception No. 1: Conductors in sizes smaller than 1/0 AWG shall be permitted to be run in parallel to supply control power to indicating instruments, contactors, relays, solenoids, and similar control devices, or for frequencies of 360 Hz and higher provided all of the following apply:

    (a) They are contained within the same raceway or cable.

    (b) The ampacity of each individual conductor is sufficient to carry the entire load current shared by the parallel conductors.

    (c) The overcurrent protection is such that the ampacity of each individual conductor will not be exceeded if one or more of the parallel conductors become inadvertently disconnected.

    Exception No. 2: Under engineering supervision,.........

  • 10 years ago

    Currents eddy. Eddie sells sporting goods.


  • 10 years ago

    Eddie currents... Wow that brings me back to not so fun of courses in college. So find a dual prong lug that fits into the bus bar that I have and that is rated for the size of wiring and for the box. If that isn't found cut the power and pull the neutral bars and see if I can find a replacement with the correct opening sizes. I drove around yesterday and found a handful of those split lug adapters. I will see if any of them fit tonight. I understand not to modify them if they don't. At least one of the brands I found is already in my panel as a breaker so I would guess that if the breaker fits then the lug adapter will but you never know.

    Side question since we are on the topic of brand to brand compatibility. There is at two and I believe three brands of breakers in my panel. Not my doing. They all fit snugly without issue. I will have to look to see what the brands are but is it common to have more then one brand of breaker in a panel? The brand I use, which I am blanking on now, is the brand that most of the breakers are. But there are a couple that are different brands that past electricians or even maybe the original electrician installed.

  • 10 years ago

    But there are a couple that are different brands that past electricians or even maybe the original electrician installed.

    Or handyman hacks ... you forgot about handyman hacks. :)

    Just because they seem to fit, doesn't mean that they do or that they are appropriate.

    While some breakers may be compatible with different boxes, they have to be specifically listed as compatible. Just like any other component.

    Look up your box and look up the off-brand breakers. See if they are listed as compatible.

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    "So find a dual prong lug that fits into the bus bar that I have and that is rated for the size of wiring and for the box"

    I would not be set on "dual prong". They are my least favorite, and last resort. I have seen the prongs get broken by electricians that are rough on equipment.

    These go on top of the neutral bar by taking out one of the set screws.

    And this type usually go under the screw that attaches the neutral bar to the panel.