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welshinfidel

Building Advice please - first topic is heating!

8 years ago

Hello you clever Houzz people, I'm building a small (1200 sq ft) one story (no basement) house out in Long Island. If you were building a house in the North East from scratch how would you choose to heat it? Keep in mind we have a full 6 months of Winter, 4 full months of too hot Summer and 2 months of just perfect! I'm keen for it to be energy efficient and plan on installing roof solar panels and large well insulated windows, I want to be able to zone the heating sources as I can't bear wasting money heating rooms when you don't need them, and am also concerned about power outages. I'd love to hear your advice. Thanks, Veronica.

Comments (16)

  • PRO
    8 years ago

    I agree with Sophie. Insulation is where you start. Any system will work less and perform better if the building is insulated well, the doors and windows are good and the thermal envelope is well sealed against air infiltration and leakage. I also like using rigid insulation on the outside or the walls to eliminate thermal bridging that happens at outlets and studs.

    Radiant heat is awesome but doesn't do anything for cooling if you need it. You can always build the home with an eye to adding air conditioning later once you've lived in the home for a summer. There are plenty of ways to add a.c. to a bedroom without a lot of ductwork if you plan for it in advance.

    welshinfidel thanked Summit Studio Architects
  • 8 years ago

    If the budget allows it then I recommend having at least a partial basement with a crawl space. Then the HVAC equipment can be installed in the basement and not take up any of your 1200 sq. feet on the main floor. It would also make the house more comfortable and less costly to heat.

    If you have access to natural gas then that would be the best fuel for heating. If no gas, then a heat pump would be a better choice than propane if your intention is to install solar panels in the future. Ideally the back of the house faces south. This will hide the solar panels from being seen from the front of the house.

    A forced hot air system with AC can be comfortable and energy efficient if properly sized and installed. You could do a gas fired boiler with baseboard radiators, but it would cost significantly more.

    You could zone the bedrooms separately from the rest of the house. This would allow living and sleeping areas to have temperature set backs during day and night periods. Probably not a big savings in energy given the size of the house. You might be better off putting the money spent on zoning into upgrading the windows and insulation.

    welshinfidel thanked mike_home
  • 8 years ago

    Mike - a basement is no guarantee that it is less costly to heat - or more comfortable. You can certainly have ducts in conditioned space without having a basement. Slab construction is generally more air tight.

    Agree with the above that zoning does little to nothing in terms of energy expenditures.

    welshinfidel thanked David Cary
  • 8 years ago

    As has been said - design the building envelope correctly and proper siting / glazing (passive solar!!!! - sun heat is FREE!!!! Heat the floor slab through the windows for overall warmth in the winter, etc) and your heating loads and cooling loads will be MINIMAL. You will be lightly conditioning space and you can focus on indoor air quality.

    welshinfidel thanked just_janni
  • PRO
    8 years ago

    I disagree that zoning doesn't reduce energy expenditures. It does when done properly. You have to understand what you are doing in terms of equipment selection as well as zoning design and implementation.

    While you can zone any HVAC equipment, the best way is to zone multi speed equipment. Reason this is important is the efficiency or cost to run the equipment is highest when running in a slower speed, if you are only cooling small portion of the home via ducted zoned system a smaller zone doesn't require as much cooling / heating as a larger zone would.

    The argument that you do damage to a home by not cooling or heating certain parts of it: The financial crisis taught us that there were a lot of homes that just sit on the market for years. The banks took them over, kicked people out and the homes sat vacant. Some may still be vacant. Do you honestly think the bank is going to run the HVAC system with no one living there? Uh, no. They will not.

    The problem with HVAC zoning is doing it correctly. In some cases due to architectural design among other problems makes this extremely difficult.

    How much could you save doing this? I lived in a home in which it cost me typically less than $35 a month to run the AC in a 1750 sq. ft. just cooling the zone I use 24/7 (in Texas). But there are trade offs in doing this.

    The best way to do this currently would be inverter ducted AC system with gas heat. If gas isn't available in your area inverter ducted heat pump with electric back up strip heat.

    Personally if it were me I probably wouldn't select heat pump if outdoor ambient conditions stay below 30 degrees for more than about 10 hours a day. Or if the area is known for heavy snow fall and accumulation.

    There are many things that go into making a zoned system operate the most efficiently and I mean this in $$$ savings via operation of the system.

    With that said, if you think you will do this for a home you don't plan to stay at for 15-20 years or longer and actually win financially at doing so, no you won't. This kind of investment is long term. HVAC zoning is specialty market.

    Certainly you could use anyone to do zone system, but the results will be vastly different.

    Some homes due to layout / architectural challenges can make a zone system not worth the effort. The other thing is equipment size.

    If your structure only needs 3 tons of cooling your savings on zoning may not be all that much. The answer tends to be in how much your utility rate is among a host of other factors.

    If you are talking about zoning areas of the structure by having more than one system, then the conversation changes yet again.

    I service the Katy, Texas area.

    welshinfidel thanked Austin Air Companie
  • 8 years ago

    David - I owned one home in NJ built on a slab. The heating costs based on the size of the house seemed higher then my next house which was larger with a basement and crawl space. It seemed the concrete slab acted like a big heat sink in the winter. It was more uncomfortable for me walking on a cold concrete slab. The house was built in the early 80s when energy standards were lower. Perhaps a well insulated slab would minimize heating costs.

  • PRO
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Slabs and edge of slabs are required to be insulated in cold climates now. Most basements have slabs. Wood to masonry transitions (slab & basement) are very leaky, even with new construction as those paper thin sill sealers just don't cut it.

    Refreshing OP is doing proper research before starting. At 1200 sqft in zone 5, you could easily design the home to be heated with one or two mini-splits (or PTACs). This is probably the most affordable path when including all costs.

    If considering NG, be sure to include the monthly service fees, HVAC contractor appliance drop charge costs, and infrastructure from street including trenching and backfill. These costs will take time to pay off (if ever) when comparing to more efficient heat pumps. Plenty of net-zero homes performing admirably without gas in colder climates than zone 5.

    Agree with getting some passive solar into the mix if you have a good site for it and to focus on the building envelope first. This usually means including a third party certifier like Energy Star to ensure your home meets a minimum level of quality. The most affordable way to increase the heating efficiency of your home is to get better blower door test results.

    Any energy raters involved with your home's building envelope effectiveness are also good resources for calculating the Manual J or energy load needs of your home. This should be done by a third party to guide HVAC equipment selection regardless of the type and fuel source.

    welshinfidel thanked Springtime Builders
  • PRO
    8 years ago

    Another vote for Energy Star. I like that you start out modeling the home's performance and verify at several steps along the way before it's too late to fix the potential issues. There's a duct leakage test and a blower door test that allows you to find the leaks and fix them before drywall. It's also a great marketing tool if you ever want to sell since it's such a recognizable brand.

    welshinfidel thanked Summit Studio Architects
  • 8 years ago
    I grew up in a rancher in Michigan that was built on a slab of concrete - I always needed thick, warm socks + slippers. The floors were always cold in the winter time, pleasantly cool in the summertime though. Not worth it, please consider adding a basement.
  • PRO
    8 years ago

    Whether the slab is in the basement or on the main level it still needs insulation under it.

  • 8 years ago

    Depending on the location, (speaking as someone who just froxe in the dark for three days ) consider setting up systems so you can also have a whole house automatic generator (which would most conveniently run off NG).

  • 8 years ago

    Thank you to everyone who has so generously contributed! Really appreciate you sharing your personal experiences and knowledge.

  • 8 years ago

    Comparing an uninsulated slab to an insulated one ... that is a bit like comparing single pane windows to triple pane. In fact, subslab insulation doesn't even save that much money - but boy is there a huge comfort issue.

    The one zoning proponent here has a vastly different climate from the OP. And it isn't that zoning doesn't save some energy, it is just that the amount is quite small. And you would generally be much better off increasing the quality of the envelope with the money you spend on zoning. That is not necessarily true in Austin.

    Most people live in such horribly sealed and insulated houses and it leads to all sorts of misconceptions that keep getting passed on. The most common is how forced air heat drys the house out. No - infiltration (made worse by poorly designed forced air) drys the house out.

  • PRO
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    While I know I can save operation costs via a ducted zoned system for my climate (Katy, Texas suburb of Houston -not Austin) not that the Austin climate is all that different in Austin, but just to clarify that my last name shouldn't be confused with a city named after me... you know for royalty association and such. LOL.

    What makes my location unique is average equipment runtime for this area is around 2200 hours a season just for AC use maintaining temperatures of 75 degrees. If you like it cooler than this, the run time is even longer. Some years here we run AC as much as 10 months out of the year.

    So when considering options in terms of efficiency versus cost of what you are attempting to do, the pay off typically comes from run time of the equipment. If your summer run time is typically 3 months long... you will have a much longer payoff time frame than my location. If your utility rate is approaching 20 cent per KWH, then it might be worth it / if your utility rate is 10 cent or less per KWH -- forget it -- the pay off for a 3 month cooling season is too short to even come close.

    What cuts operation costs in one location may not work in another just due to climate reasons alone. The other obvious thing is size of structure. 1200 sq. ft is small. Trying to zone a home this small is probably over kill. BUT ---when it comes to mini split there is no other way because mini splits (most of them) are non ducted systems. If the mini split is not zoned via refrigerant piping then you have even higher maintenance costs in terms of more equipment. So maybe this is where a lot of the confusion comes from on this topic of HVAC zoning.

    You must realize that HVAC zoning (ducted) is a tool in the tool kit. It can solve comfort problems and increase efficiency and cut monthly operation costs when done properly. However, it isn't appropriate for every house or every situation.

    HVAC zoning (mini split method) is typically done to cut equipment costs. Because cooling / heating heads are typically needed for each individual area (room) of the home. There's typically little choice involved when it comes to mini split method and zoning. Unless the mini split uses ducts to distribute air, which really defeats the purpose of using mini split design.

    With that said, a ducted zone system will have far less maintenance and repair costs than a mini split zoned system. Less equipment = less cost over the long term.

  • 8 years ago

    I have a hydronic system with 16 zones and an airhandler (for AC primarily) with 6 zones. It gives us a lot of flexibility like shutting off the guest rooms and keeping the master bedroom cooler while keeping the master bath warmer.