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mocxr

Latex paint peeling off in sheets on new drywall

mocxr
4 years ago

I recently remodeled and discovered a problem in several rooms. The paint peels off in giant sheets cleanly. These rooms have new sheetrock. They were taped using different joint compound as they were finished at different times. One room is painted with SW Duration and the others with BM Regal Select. All were primed with SW Prep Right Pro Block Acrylic primer from the same 5 gallon container. One painter painted the kitchen and another company painted the other rooms with the issue several months later


Here is a video that shows the problem as pictures don't do it justice. SW has taken samples for analysis. Any suggestions how to fix this other than starting over?


Please don't say this was from dust. The walls were vacuumed and prepped. I have also painted over dust and never had this issue.


When I peel it, it comes off right down to the compound. This video shows me pulling it off with one hand.



Comments (77)

  • PRO
    User
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Try the Gardz then Paint. Gardz is a penetrating primer not a typical latex that bonds to the surface.

    mocxr thanked User
  • mocxr
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Sophie Wheeler - don't make assumptions. I paid for the paint. It was purchased from their suppliers. They ordered it.

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  • PRO
    User
    4 years ago

    We are company that solves problems like this all the time. I do not think the paint is the problem

    mocxr thanked User
  • _sophiewheeler
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    A true level 5 finish is a plaster finish, over blueboard. It’s a chemically reaction cured bonded coat over a moisture resistant substrate.

    Its NOT regular non moisture resistant drywall with dehydration cured joint compound parged over everything. If your finishers used regular joint compound over regular drywall, that’s high on the list of contributing issues. Combine that massive amount of moisture inside of the non moisture resistant drywall with the primer, and you get peel.

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Sophie Wheeler - perhaps I used the wrong term but the USG website says level 5 finish is skim coat over entire drywall surface. https://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_Marketing_Communications/canada/product_promotional_materials/finished_assets/cgc-construction-handbook-ch05-finishing-drywall-systems-can-en.pdf


    At this point I don't care about what was done. I care about how to fix it.

  • _sophiewheeler
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Try the Gardz. But be prepared to peel and start over.


  • PRO
    The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
    4 years ago

    Mocxr - Isolating the issue takes a bit of detective work and of coarse some in-depth knowledge of the involved products. I can only go by your comments and vid. From this you can make some reasonable logical conclusions. First, this is happening with two brands of paint from two different manufacturers. The odds of both major manufacturers producing defective paint is almost nil. When you peel the paint you mentioned that the primer is adhered to the paint film. This indicates that the finish paint is adhering to the primer. You also mention that there is joint compound adhered to the primer. This indicates that the failure is most likely within the joint compound. You mentioned that all the wall surfaces were skim coated with joint compound. Was this done on new drywall or existing drywall that was previously painted. If the latter, regular premixed joint compound does not adhere very well to paint surfaces, especially if the paint has a higher sheen than flat and when the skim coat is very thin. Often when skim coating, water is added to make the compound easier to trowel. This can be a problem as the binder in joint compound is at a very low level to begin with, over dilution will effectively destroy the bonding capability.

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    The Kitchen Abode Ltd. - thanks. All of the rooms affected have new drywall not previously painted. Although different finish paint brands were used, the same primer was used. The rooms did not have the same compound though as they were not done at the same time. I know some of the compound used was the pre-,mixed and some was the bagged stuff.


    The paint also peels off around the perimeter (about 4 inches wide) of an old plaster ceiling that was NOT skimmed. That's why I was thinking it was the primer because there was no joint compound on the ceiling.

  • paintguy22
    4 years ago

    It really does not matter what brands of paint were used. If paint peels, you know which layer failed and assign the blame to that layer. If the primer peeled, then you can be sure it was a failure for the primer to adhere to the mud. What was applied to the top of a failing paint layer is just not relevant. I would try some Gardz, then skim coat over the Gardz, then Gardz again over the skimcoat and then apply topcoat. You should also try this process before committing to doing entire rooms to be sure it's going to work.

  • PRO
    The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
    4 years ago

    Mocxr - Could be the primer, there are many different primers so it's really important to understand the surfaces being primed in order to choose the right one that will bond properly to the substrate and provide a good bonding surface for the intended finish coating.

  • PRO
    Patricia Colwell Consulting
    4 years ago

    From waht I have been reading this primer needs a light sanding before top coat maybe that is where it went wrong.You have to make sure this was the primer meant for drywall

  • Sammy
    4 years ago

    FWIW, mocxr, I have an area in my home where the paint is peeling off, too. And the paint in question is SW Harmony Interior Acrylic Latex.

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Patricia Colwell Consulting - Where did you read this? I'd like to show it to the painters. I don't see that in the data sheet. I am pretty sure they didn't sand after priming the kitchen but don't know about the other rooms which were done by a different company.

  • PRO
    The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
    4 years ago

    I checked the spec sheet for the primer you said they used and it says easy to sand, saw nothing related to having to sand. There are times, especially when priming wood work that you want the primer to be sandable.

    mocxr thanked The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
  • ci_lantro
    4 years ago

    I always thought PVA (polyvinyl acetate) primers were SOP for coating new drywall and fresh texture. (PVA is essentially Elmer's glue).

    IMO, the problem is with the choice of primer. Prep-rite is a nice primer but it isn't designed for new (unpainted) drywall. And it's pricey compared to PVA primers which are usually the least expensive in the family of primers.


  • paintguy22
    4 years ago

    PVA is cheap garbage. It should be avoided. Also, if you don't sand the primer, this will only affect the topcoat sticking to it. The primer is what failed in this case so sanding it or not isn't a factor.


    mocxr thanked paintguy22
  • mocxr
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    The Kitchen Abode Ltd. - the room in the video had to be re-painted 3 times which is a long story and you are correct that it looks like vinyl wall covering. In the kitchen where it also peels, the paint is a "normal" thickness. I just didn't take video of it.


    In one of the rooms that was painted with the same primer they didn't skim. I will check that to see if it peels.

  • Kate O'Toole
    4 years ago
    I hope you get this all worked out. good luck!
    mocxr thanked Kate O'Toole
  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    So we have confirmed that 4 rooms are affected by the peeling paint. All 4 were gutted and have new sheetrock. There is a 5th room that was gutted and has new sheetrock that is not affected. It was skim coated at the same time as two of the other rooms but painted a few days later. We did not use the same primer here as we ran out. The difference between this room and the others is amount of days between finishing taping and painting and the primer used.


    Lab analysis done by SW simply says the layer between the compound and primer failed but they don't know why. The GM of SW says can't be the primer as made in batches so he blamed the compound which is also made in batches. Compound came from 3 different suppliers, 2 different manufacturers, and different types used. Can't be the method either as same method used in the room not affected.


    Costs to get this fixed are astronomical. SW has offered free product but no compensation for labor.


    The Kitchen Abode Ltd. - where you have seen this problem, how did you fix it? Have you ever followed up with homeowners to confirm problem didn't reoccur? Since these rooms were painted months ago and failing now, I'm worried that if we test a solution we might not really know if it is working or not until months later.

  • PRO
    The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
    3 years ago

    Mocxr - Sounds to be in line with my suspicion. The issue now is how to properly correct this. First, you are going to have to remove the paint finish in all suspect areas. Try using a 4" or 6" putty knife to see if you can get under the paint film and scrape it off. For more difficult regions you may need to wet down the paint surface, similar to removing wallpaper, may need to keep it damp for an hour or more to soften the paint film so you can get it to release. The original skim coat is going to get damaged in this process, will need to be sanded and skimmed again and then sanded. Make sure to vacuum the surface to remove all dust. Then prime with an oil based primer, suggest two coats, when completely dry apply your finish paint.

    Would be best to try this first on the worst wall, make sure that you give things a day or two to dry fully before the next step. Also, I'm surprised that they used two types of joint compound, most highly experienced tapers will only use a particular compound for a particular task and often only from their preferred manufacturer. The compound manufactures often make 5 or more differing types depending upon the application. As mentioned in one of my previous posts, they need to be very cautious if they are watering down the compound to make it easier to spread, this can undermine the adhesion properties of the compound. If they are using a finishing type compound then they should likely not add any water to it as these have very low levels of binder already, it's what makes them so easy to sand.

    mocxr thanked The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    The Kitchen Abode Ltd. - thank you. Most of the areas scrape pretty easily - all. have to do is pierce and then I can pull it off like it's vinyl wallpaper. There are some areas in the bathroom that are tougher. I was actually going to try water to release the harder stuff but the builder and the regional manager from Sherwin Williams told me to just leave it on. He said get off the loose stuff, skim over the rest then use an oil based primer. I don't want to leave any of the failing paint on though so I will try the water trick.


    As for the various formulas - sometimes that was just what was available, This job has been going on for months and is much bigger than we originally planned. The builder had purchased supplies initially and along the way had to replenish. Local stores don't carry the same brand. I hired a drywall/plaster company to work on the plaster rooms and they also used multiple formulas and the pre-mixed stuff as well as dry.



  • PRO
    The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
    3 years ago

    Mocxr - Good to hear it is coming off fairly easily. If the tougher areas are not too large I would try to also remove the paint film. If it's to difficult then I recommend using the oil primer on the left over paint before they skim, joint compound applied thinly does not adhere well to paint with a sheen level greater than flat. Once all the paint has been removed they should likely inspect the leftover original skim coat surface to see that it is not unusually soft or loose, it might need a quick sanding first, just in case the issue was with the final skim coat.

    No problem if they used the powder product, these are setting type compounds and are much stronger than premixed compounds. I suspect they used this for the first coat to set the joint tape, spot the fasteners and prefill any beads. They would then switch to a premixed compound for the other coats.


  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago


    The Kitchen Abode Ltd. - thanks again for all the advice. This is what the master bath looks like after I peeled it. I hadn't tried to peel it off the pre-primed boards yet. I have no idea how they are going to skim all these squares.



  • PRO
    The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
    3 years ago

    Mocxr - Doable but challenging, did not realize there were applied boards to create a paneled type of look. It's interesting to see the total lack of paint adhesion where ever it was skim coated. When ever I have encountered this type of issue it is typically more isolated. It will also be interesting to see if the paint/primer is well adhered to the boards. If so, then it looks more and more like a problem related to the compound. May not be defective compound but related to the conditions at and during the time of application or painting.

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago


    The Kitchen Abode Ltd. - master and guest bath both have boards but in different patterns. These were pre-primed boards so I still couldn't rule out the primer. So I just went up on a ladder and tested the one plaster ceiling in these rooms. This ceiling was not skimmed. The paint adheres except at the edges where they feathered the compound from the walls.

    We did have issues with things drying in the house and had to crank up the heat really high - compound that should have dried in 45 minutes took a day.

  • PRO
    The Kitchen Abode Ltd.
    3 years ago

    Mocxr - Can never say for sure but I believe the issue is related to the adverse conditions at time of application. Have seen this before, where job site conditions were cool and very damp. The applicators where pushing to get things done and where applying additional coats before the previous coat was completely dry and cured, each coat added even more moisture. When painted/primed this added even more into the substrate, the primer surface dries(dry to the touch) trapping the moisture behind the paint in the compound. When the compound is wetted it looses a lot of its bonding strength, if they then apply a a coat of finish paint it moistens the underlying primer. As the primer takes on this excess moisture the paint film will expand/swell. This can break the bond between the primer and the underlying joint compound. Now the finished paint film surface dries but there is a lot of moisture trapped below. This moisture must move through the underlying material out towards the surface where it can evaporate away. This process can create a hydrostatic pressure behind the paint film and further undermine the already weakened bond. In sever cases it can literally blow the paint off the wall.

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    paintguy22 - Sherwin Williams is going to supply the paint but I am not familiar with their paint. Some of the rooms will be dark (one is black) and I prefer a matte finish. Which of their lines should I go with?

  • paintguy22
    3 years ago

    Emerald.

    mocxr thanked paintguy22
  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    paintguy22 - thanks. would you use that for the trim too? In other rooms we used Ben Moore Advance


    Also I think I can get their pro paints too as they are supplying the paint to a painter. Would you still choose Emerald over their pro paints?

  • paintguy22
    3 years ago
    Yea. I’m a Benjamin Moore guy for the most part but Emerald was made to compete with BM’s top line. Pro-classic is pretty good for trim too.
  • PRO
    JudyG Designs
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Did painters spray the walls?

  • suezbell
    3 years ago

    Take and keep lots of photographs to document every problem. Call the back all those that prepped and painted the wall.

    Also consider covering rather than painting the sheetrock.

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    JudyG Designs, suezbell

    8 areas/room were gutted and have new sheetrock. 4 of these have peeling paint. The builder did all the taping. 3 of the 4 areas were prepped and painted by one company. One was prepped and painted by the builder due to time - cabinets were coming in and painter not available. The black bathroom was initially sprayed. But it was repainted three times already because of how poorly they prepped and painted. No other rooms were sprayed with paint.

    One of the rooms NOT affected was taped using the same method on the same day as one of the rooms affected. As taping was done by the builder, it did not occur on the same day as the prep for painting or painting. Most rooms the builder sanded and vacuumed and then the painters came and did their prep.

    The painter of the 3 rooms has basically washed his hands - when I told him the paint peeled when I tried to hang towel bars, he said don't hang towel bars then.

    I've made a list of everything done in the rooms and crossed off everything they have in common. I'm left with the one thing that the 4 rooms have in common that no other room has which is the same primer from the same container. I know it could also be conditions in the rooms but the same conditions existed for the other rooms too. Everything was painted in the same time frame.

    Sherwin Williams (SW) has been out several times. The District Manager and Sales manager came out. I took a 5 in 1 and made a hole in the paint in all the rooms and then tried to peel. In 4 rooms it comes off like it was never there. The DM told me "All paint would do that if you take a 5 in 1 to it' . I went into another room, poked a hole with the 5 in 1 and could not peel the paint. Then showed her 3 more rooms where I couldn't peel.

    In the one bathroom there is MDF, preprimed pine, plaster, and sheetrock. The paint comes off of the MDF (which was primed but not taped), the plaster (primed but not taped) and the sheetrock (taped, primed). It does not come off the pre-primed pine.

    SW has sent the paint for analysis and the results just say the layer between compound and primer failed. They say it can't be their primer. At this point I don't care. The solution they proposed works SO FAR. I have no idea if it will fail a month from now.

    The builder is going to do all the work to prep and paint the rooms. I'm not thrilled with this as he is already behind schedule and it takes him away from other work but SW won't pay for anyone else to do the labor. I bugged them enough that they have agreed to give him a credit on his account and are supplying equipment and paint.

    I've got photos, videos, text messages, etc. I lived in the house during the renovation and took pictures every single day things were done at the house.

  • PRO
    JudyG Designs
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I am not challenging you; simply asking, did the painters spray paint the wall?


  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    JudyG Designs - I answered that - only one of the affected rooms had the paint sprayed on.

  • PRO
    JudyG Designs
    3 years ago

    Spraying could be the culprit for that room…

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    JudyG Designs - except the other 3 rooms peel exactly the same way - cleanly down to the drywall paper- and they weren't sprayed. I have moved past trying to figure out why as it is clearly not the sheetrock. If it had been the sheetrock then other rooms could fail later but that's not the case so we are moving forward with the solution provided.

  • paintguy22
    3 years ago

    How can spraying make paint peel?

  • tatts
    3 years ago

    How? Paint that is sprayed on doesn't have the same mechanical bond as when it's brushed or rolled on. Brushing and rolling squish the paint into tight contact with the underneath surface.

    Paint that is sprayed just sits where it lands and doesn't stich as well. Quality exterior painters may spray the paint on, but they always brush it out immediately after doing a small section.

  • paintguy22
    3 years ago

    True for wood. I don't really think for drywall it matters much. Back in the old new construction days, we sprayed hundreds of houses with garbage flat and I can't even recall one paint failure. Most painters backroll anyways.

  • PRO
    Bluegrass Asset Management LLC
    last year

    There’s a HUGE difference between “dry” and “cured”. In this instance, one or more newly applied materials was not given sufficient time to CURE. Always follow the manufacturer’s instructions to the letter. And, when you hire someone to do the work for you, always, always, ALWAYS supervise them. Never forget that even though you hired a professional, YOU are still the boss and you are responsible for the proper supervision of the work that is being done. If you disagree, you shouldn’t be allowed to own a house. IMHO

  • Tony Rader
    9 months ago

    I am experiencing the same issue. Only on a remodel job, older sheetrock, it has no issue with underlying paint, but the patched in drywall and joint compound have the paint peeling down to the joint compound. First primer applied was Zinser, second rimer is valspar and so is the paint.

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    9 months ago

    Tony Rader the only thing that worked was zinser guardz.

  • Greg Beach
    9 months ago

    Hi. I have the same issue. Bought a house and found that the paint peels off like vinyl wallpaper down to the skim coat (like your situation). This is in the areas where drywall was put in (some portions of house are plaster). What was your final solution (and in what order) that worked? You obviously peeled as much of the paint off as possible. Then did you skim coat and apply Gardz. After this, what primer did you use? Thanks. Trying to learn a lesson through your experience...

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    9 months ago

    Greg Beach I had the issue in multiple rooms but only peeled the paint off in the worst room. In the other rooms, we skimmed, applied Gardz, waited 24+ hours, primed and then painted. I don't remember which primer we used - in some rooms it was Sherwin Williams (one of their pro primers because they provided the paint). In other rooms it might have been Ben Moore.


    We didn't spray the paint. It was always rolled and brushed.


    The failed paint left a weird residue behind that wouldn't come off no matter what we did. We cleaned the walls, wiped, vaccummed, etc . Only gardz stopped it

  • suezbell
    9 months ago
    last modified: 9 months ago

    Hope the fix works.


    Found this just FYI about Gardz.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B82ZF2ipzR4

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    9 months ago

    suezbell - I don't need a review. It was literally the only product that worked after trying MANY other things recommended here, by painters, by Sherwin Williams upper management, etc. Nothing else worked. Gardz did. And it's long done

  • Greg Beach
    9 months ago

    Thanks. Hoping good karma goes your way. I'll deal with my mess in the next few months. Do you remember if the primer you used was an oil-based one (I hope not)? One other question then I'll leave you alone...for the rooms you didn't peel the paint off, did you put on the Gardz on top of paint that you could have pulled away pretty easily - and it penetrated this and actually worked to seal it? If that's the case then that will save a ton of time. I'd be very impressed if this stuff goes through the hardened vinyl-like sheet of paint that I can pull off.

  • mocxr
    Original Author
    9 months ago

    It wasn’t an oil based primer.


    I don’t remember the steps but let me see if i wrote the steps out on my IG reno page.