I don't think Virgil Carter likes people to be empowered. he is one of those hire everybody and just write the checks kinda guy.

I'm right aren't I? if not why would an FAIA architect buy a tract house (west facing nonetheless) instead of designing and building it himself.

Cook's kitchen-your post is making DEs top ten posts of the year!

you are right about the value of knowing those trades. Yoda says-"much to learn, DE has"

just janni thanks! for the encouragement :) I'm not trying to lay 2k blocks in one weekend. I'm thinking over several weekends.

shead, thanks for the words of caution! much to learn, I have.

btw, you know me too well :D

"Actually I'll be surprised if this house actually gets built".

if this recession they say is coming, comes, don't let me find a nice mid century modern on one acre in my price range because it would be sayonara self built house

Debbie and janni: by all means get started right away on those CMU walls.

Post photos and copies of the emergency room findings.

Be sure to let us know how much you are saving.

This will be one for the record books.

Virgil faia Carter are you afraid of what it would say if someone with nothing but a library card designed and built their own house while an architect of 40 years lives in a tract house?

Dear Debbie, your library card is overdue and has been rejected.

We are all anxious to find out if your medical bills will be greater than your construction savings.

My money is that you will soon announce another, completely different technique, which will save even more money on the house which appears you will never build.

The saga continues...

so we agree that speculative builders dont always build the least expensive house.

This is a little bit of a chicken or egg discussion. I certainly agree that tract builders don't select materials and processes solely on price, however, in many areas those selections become the cheapest because of that inclusion.

Home building is still a labor intensive endeavor and thus labor is still the primary cost driver. In many markets, maybe even most markets, production and tract builds put so much pressure on the labor market that it drives down the price. Which means that often tract builders end up with the least expensive house even though their intention was just profit.

-------

As for block. I didn't realize you were considering dry stacking. My very limited understanding is that dry stacking courses 2 through 15 is pretty easy so long as the block is true (something that doesn't happen around here). However, if your first course is off at all the entire structure is going to be complete garbage by the 15th.

I have managed to work with concrete block a fair amount more than I ever wanted to (which is still not a lot). It isn't as hard on me as a large format floor tile, but that is just me.

"As for block. I didn't realize you were considering dry stacking "

I probably wont dry stack. trying to build on the 8" module becomes problematic since there is no mortar to to bring the nominal height x width to actual height x width

And the structural engineer will have a lot to say about the method used.

Virgil Carter Fine Art

"Dear Debbie, your library card is overdue and has been rejected.

We are all anxious to find out if your medical bills will be greater than your construction savings.

My money is that you will soon announce another, completely different technique, which will save even more money on the house which appears you will never build."

Dear Virgil,

It is clear that you desperately want me to fail. It is also now clear why.

I will not fail. And that's all there is to it.

Sincerely,

D E

No one wants you to fail but you seem hellbent on trying to prove everyone (with decades of experience) wrong and that’s a recipe for disaster. What people really want is for you to come to the realization that you don’t know what you don’t know and that maybe, just maybe, the rest of us with a LOT more professional and BTDT experience aren’t as stupid as you think we are.

But who knows, maybe you’ll find block laying your new calling in life ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I, for one, am anxious to see how this plays out. Best of luck!

"but you seem hellbent on trying to prove everyone (with decades of experience) wrong and that’s a recipe for disaster. "

Shead, can you qualify this? Can you share with me some statements Ive made that try to prove anyone wrong?

"...It is now clear why..."

Well then, please inform all of us about this most recent discovery of yours.

No qualification needed. Anyone who has followed your saga understands what I’m talking about.

It all started with your initial house plan post and most recently has been about flat roofs and CMU block walls.

while an architect of 40 years lives in a tract house?

You really are not a nice person are you? Did it ever occur to you that maybe circumstances in life are the reason Virgil lives where he does? You don't know his story and to harp on it speaks more to the person you are than as to where he chooses to live at this point in his life.

I mentioned before that my husband has decades of experience in contracting and carpentry. We've gut remodeled two houses in the last five years. There were many things he did himself on both houses...demo, some framing, finish carpentry, exterior cladding, he built the entire garage himself (I even have a video of me and two of our kids raising one of the framed walls). But there are other things that he wouldn't do himself...electrical, flooring, roofing, plumbing, drywall, painting, etc. Even a very experienced professional builder like he is would rather pay for an expert on certain things than to tackle it himself to get the best quality. It's not that he couldn't do these things if he tried, but he knew that he wouldn't do it better than the experts. This type of respect for other trades will ultimately produce a better home in the long run that may have fewer issues over time. You may not be able to meet your less than $100/sqft goal, but you'll have a better house in the end. (BTW, even with my husband doing much of the work, my wholesale pricing and trade discounts and discounted contractor pricing, we were about $170/sqft for a 2200 sq.ft. remodel.)

I think by insisting you can do it all yourself, you may actually be revealing what you don't know about building a house. I admire your confidence, but in the end, it would be a shame that all of this hard work yields an amateur-looking construction.

Thank you, CPA.

Debbie has no knowledge of my family situation or my own personal health.

While I use my actual name as my ID, she hides behind her initials (I assume that's what they are) and makes cheap personal shots.

Shead is correct: Debbie is a know-it-all with no personal skills.

"You may not be able to meet your less than $100/sqft goal, but you'll have a better house in the end. (BTW, even with my husband doing much of the work, my wholesale pricing and trade discounts and discounted contractor pricing, we were about $170/sqft for a 2200 sq.ft. remodel.) "

Thank you for the insight.

the REMODEL cost you $170/sq ft? I have to assume you are in a high cost of living area.

All new mechanics, new steel structural support in basement, furred out all existing exterior walls and added a second floor. I factored in the cost of the foundation had we needed it into that cost/sqft. I'm in the Chicago market, so yes, pricier than average. But had we built this 2200 sqft home as a new construction and included the foundation (but not the garage), it would have been $170/sqft, including all contracting and materials (much of it completely comped). I just hope you're being realistic about what your price/per sqft will get you in the end.

shead

"No qualification needed. Anyone who has followed your saga understands what I’m talking about.

It all started with your initial house plan post and most recently has been about flat roofs and CMU block walls."

The things I think cause friction are

1. the house must be severely simple

2. I don't like fancy, expensive ornamentation or adornment

3. the house will be paid for in cash.

for whatever reason, some people have a huge problem with this outlook.

they would prefer a highly adorned house, with fancy appliances and countertops,many pretty corners. all financed to the hilt and all owned by the bank.

If those people think I'm a know-it-all, I'm ok with that.

We paid off our house and were 100% debt free in our 30s. student loans, credit cards, all of it. This takes a certain mindset and a lot of discipline. So someone telling me to do things in a different, more expensive way, will always fall on deaf ears. but thats the thing, when you have to pay cash for something you definitely try much harder to find the best value than when you are buying with borrowed money and giving yourself 30 years to pay it off.

I'm merely trying to find the best value in every area of this build.

p.s for full disclosure, we did borrow some money to buy our lot, which I think was a big mistake.the loan will be paid off this year or next and one or both of us will still be in our 30s.

Kristin Petro Interiors, Inc.

"All new mechanics, new steel structural support in basement, furred out all existing exterior walls and added a second floor. I factored in the cost of the foundation had we needed it into that cost/sqft. I'm in the Chicago market, so yes, pricier than average. But had we built this 2200 sqft home as a new construction and included the foundation (but not the garage), it would have been $170/sqft, including all contracting and materials (much of it completely comped). I just hope you're being realistic about what your price/per sqft will get you in the end."

I appreciate that insight.

Can I do it for $100/ sq ft? I dont know but Im going to try my hardest. I got quotes from contractors in the $105/sf range, including the GCs 40-50k fee. The highest estimate I received was from a design/build firm that specializes in near passiv haus / leed construction and they thought it could be done for $120-140/sf

the REMODEL cost you $170/sq ft? I have to assume you are in a high cost of living area.

FYI: The remodel cost is always 25% - 30% premium vs new construction

DE, my advice is to use a professional when possible. Use your DIY skills for specialty projects that do not affect the overall integrity of the build.

(Also note that we did not include cheap materials in our remodel. Walnut cabinets, quartzite counters, LED lighting throughout, Hardie siding and panels, etc. Your price per square foot is dependent on the quality-level of the materials you want.)

" (Also note that we did not include cheap materials in our remodel. Walnut cabinets, quartzite counters, LED lighting throughout, Hardie siding and panels, etc. Your price per square foot is dependent on the quality-level of the materials you want. "

Absolutely great to hear. Is there such a thing as level zero? :D

Confidence is a great thing. Arrogance will get you into trouble. A poorly-built custom home is not better than a well-built tract home. Go forth with humility and an open mind.

"We paid off our house and were 100% debt free in our 30s. student loans, credit cards, all of it. This takes a certain mindset and a lot of discipline. So someone telling me to do things in a different, more expensive way, will always fall on deaf ears. but thats the thing, when you have to pay cash for something you definitely try much harder to find the best value than when you are buying with borrowed money and giving yourself 30 years to pay it off. "

Why do you assume that everyone else disagreeing with your line of thinking is in a worse financial position than you? What if I said DH and I are barely 40 years old, have custom built one home, gut remodeled three others, been involved in parents' remodeling projects and building projects, numerous farm building projects, and getting ready to gut remodel/over double the size of our existing home and that we are debt-free and will pay cash for our remodel/addition? Is our experiences and advice less valuable than yours simply because it's not what you want to hear?

And yes, it takes a lot of self-discipline and a certain mindset to live a debt-free lifestyle but it also requires a certain degree of analytical and decision-making skills. One must recognize their own weaknesses and they must also realize that time is the most precious commodity they have and ask themselves, "How is my time best utilized?"

As Kenny Rogers says, "You gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away, and know when to run."

DE, not to totally change up the discussion, but have you looked at building with 6" sips? (CMU plus 4 inches insulation is a foot. Big, deep window sills and doors. ) Actually, I guess I am changing it up...

Sometimes, well, actually, always, the cheapest way is to do it right the first time. And I know you have at least one sios manufacturer in the Dallas area.

Have you done any soil testing yet to determine what type of foundation you will need?

Hi OliviaG

I did get a quote for sips- ouch.

the quote I got for the the whole house( roof and walls), renting a crane for a day, and a crew, was 87k. I said thanks but no thanks.

Kristin Petro Interiors, Inc.

"Confidence is a great thing. Arrogance will get you into trouble. A poorly-built custom home is not better than a well-built tract home. Go forth with humility and an open mind."

Thank you Shifu :)

I definitely dont want to be arrogant. Heck, I'm barely confident. That's why researching the build has become like a part time job for me.

If I sound confident/arrogant its because I stand on one thing that ive said before- - Hassan Fathy said in "architecture for the poor" if you give me 3000 hours to build a house I will spend 2900 hours planning and 100 hours building the house - I am in my 2900 hours of planning and I wont lift a hammer until all the details and costs are crystal clear

What's the saying?

"I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am."

Humility is considered a state of being, highlighted by your behavior and approach to things. It's also considered one of the virtues of the human condition, along with kindness, patience, diligence, charity, temperance and chastity. Humility is often thought to occur in the absence of pride.

I did get a quote for sips- ouch. the quote I got for the the whole house( roof and walls), renting a crane for a day, and a crew, was 87k. I said thanks but no thanks.

Last time I got $170/per panel for R24 -9' or $42/lf so lets say for 30x40 ... 140 lf x $42/lf = $5880 Just for walls, I am sure there are other pcs needed. For installation cut 7/16 ply, insert, screw it inplace. Walls go up pretty quickly.

Yes, BT, that sounds more like it. And you don't need a crane to set 10' wall panels. Maybe 8700, not 87000

And lift is like $500/day for 1 day. I do not know the point of SIP roofs. You still have to frame it first before attaching panels. Why not just lay cheap OSB, underlayment, metal. Why have R24 roof exterior?

BT

"Last time I got $170/per panel for R24 -9' or $42/lf so lets say for 30x40 ... 140 lf x $42/lf = $5880 Just for walls, I am sure there are other pcs needed. For installation cut 7/16 ply, insert, screw it inplace. Walls go up pretty quickly"

how long ago was last time??? here is my quote from an architect recommended dealer, who has done many buildings in this area . add 15k for labor =$77k. I misquoted when I said $87k

thanks but no thanks

Oliviag/ bring back Sophie

"Yes, BT, that sounds more like it. And you don't need a crane to set 10' wall panels. Maybe 8700, not 87000"

I wish it were only $8700.

so, your quote for the walls was 20k. that's still high, I think, but bt and i were talking about walls, only. my walls were taller, and more complicated, including jumbo panels, 24 ft high in some areas.
When you get soil testing, foundation plans, real drawings, ( even 2 x 4 or 2x 6), you'll get better quotes.

my advice, don't waste your time and vendors' time to get local quotes til you have real drawings .

Your quote also included gluelams and a lot of steel. I don't know why. but then, we don't have real drawings to look at. Just sketchup concept

They are charging you 15 times what the panel cost to have it installed. I never installed one, but watched the video did not look that hard. Call the manufacturers to see what the real costs are.

If you want to GC you need to act as GC. You do not ask to quote materials and have them installed. You ask for labor only. If they can beat your materials price or at least come close fine. Never at 10x or even 15x.

Start from filing DBA with the state. Organize as a company ex: Lorry Brown Homes . Get the tax ID. This BS is going to cost you 3 times what it should, and you will end up doing all your own work.

" What if I said DH and I are barely 40 years old, have custom built one home, gut remodeled three others, been involved in parents' remodeling projects and building projects, numerous farm building projects, and getting ready to gut remodel/over double the size of our existing home and that we are debt-free and will pay cash for our remodel/addition? Is our experiences and advice less valuable than yours simply because it's not what you want to hear? "

I am very happy for you(and congrats - thats quite a feat) but you are in a small minority of people in the US.. Most of us are in debt to our ears.

It may not be what I want to hear but the majority of the feedback I have received has been positive. Everyone has expressed concern that I may be biting off more than I can chew. I appreciate that.

Its very different to the one or two people (and you know who they are) who are very clearly hoping and praying that I fail.

I wont fail. The house will meet and exceed all my goals. And if stating that makes me arrogant, Im ok with that, too.

Since we are taking a bit of time to analyze DE, some of the things said are not as off base as people might want to believe.

The housing market is a pretty inefficient market, in fact, for a broad market it is incredibly inefficient. Which is a bit odd because the market for land is actually pretty efficient. As a result, the house construction market is pretty inefficient.

Anytime there is a market inefficiency there is a potential to profit from it. I have a former student who turned a small amount of money into a small real estate empire while in college. He started with enough money to buy one property when he was a Sophomore stumbled onto an inefficiency in the market and 4 years later has a dozen properties.

Most people don't see the inefficiency, that simply isn't what interests them, I suspect DE sees the inefficiency in the market and wants to turn that into some advantage. The problem being, knowing an inefficiency exists and profiting from it are two very different things. I am a cost accountant by nature and nurture. Most people walk into a restaurant and see atmosphere and food, I walk into a restaurant and I see fixed costs, mixed costs, step costs, and variable costs, after that I start looking for marginal costs and activity costing. It is very rare that I walk into any business that I am not evaluating their efficiency at resource management and how effectively I see them using marginal costs to make decisions.

I have done what DE is attempting to do and just as many people here told me it couldn't be done. If I heard it once I must have heard it a thousand times, houses always cost more to build than buying new. Yet, I built the house for significantly less than any house in the area would cost and sold it for the same amount as those houses. The difference being, I was never going to live in the house. Creating profit versus creating value are two different things.

There is quite a difference between a house and a home.

"I have done what DE is attempting to do and just as many people here told me it couldn't be done. If I heard it once I must have heard it a thousand times, houses always cost more to build than buying new. Yet, I built the house for significantly less than any house in the area would cost and sold it for the same amount as those houses. The difference being, I was never going to live in the house. Creating profit versus creating value are two different things. "

I appreciate this . I have heard too that buying is cheaper than building but then I think people start at tract builder and add from there, while I'm starting at tract builder and deleting things.

for example, no tract builder would build without a garage. I dont think they would use stained concrete floors, and if they want to sell it they wouldnt ever consider exposed concrete block or vinyl . All the new tract homes around here have granite countertops. I dislike that shizz with a passion.

We do plan to live in this house though..Our goal was always to have a bigger lot - thats why we are building. the focus is less on the house and more on just having more space in the outdoors for the family to hang out, thats why I spent more on the land than we are going to spend on the house( I know your'e going to tell me that lot cost should never be more than 25% of total cost :) ).

remodeling1840

"There is quite a difference between a house and a home."

yes, yes. Im SURE there is.

for starters Im sure that a home has more glitter and gold than a house, right?

No, actually, a house is a series of rooms, bland and impersonal, without regard to the actual family who lives there. A home is a haven from the world, a welcoming space for friends, a series of well-thought out spaces to encourage harmony, creativity, memories, laughter, joy, respect.

" a series of well-thought out spaces to encourage harmony, creativity, memories, laughter, joy, respect. "

LOL sure

Brilliant!!!

LMAO

I have heard too that buying is cheaper than building but then I think people start at tract builder and add from there, while I'm starting at tract builder and deleting things.

I don't see how what you are describing will create savings. I didn't start or stop at tract builders, and if anything tried to leverage the market created by tract builders. I looked at the entire house as, why does this add value? Can I achieve that added value in any other way.

My house was clad in brick and stick framed, I specifically avoided trying to reinvent the wheel, I just tried to find shorter or more productive paths for the wheel to follow.

Additionally, I avoided the idea that value was created by shrinking the house. If anything I kept adding to the square footage until I hit the material's price break-point. I started with the appraisal in mind and then reverse engineered it to find alternatives to add value at lower costs.

Having said all that, I took that money and hired a "starchitect" to design the home I want to live in. So I do agree there is a difference between building a house and building a home.

"Never at 10x or even 15x."

Good thing my customers don't read here or apparently agree:

Today's delighted customer paid almost ten times the cost of the sink to have that awful builder-grade double bowl replaced with this lovely Kohler.

"Today's delighted customer paid almost ten times the cost of the sink to have that awful builder-grade double bowl replaced with this lovely Kohler."

and that, my friends, is how you transform a lowly house, into a lovely home :D

(that's not directed at you Joseph)

If you are building a home and paying everyone 10x materials that lovely 400k will be like 3 million.

Nice work by the way.

Sad and pathetic that a definition of home is so twisted. And I am not laughing. I am truly sorry. Oppositional defiance.

like so many, you have been conditioned, without even realizing it, to derive joy and happiness from things. Glittery, chintzy, useless - things.

the unimportant, has been made important, and the important made unimportant.
and that, is sad, and sadly twisted.