Unless you're careful you can easily burn your arms with a french door oven, especially a low one. Getting up with something hot and heavy can sometimes be a problem (think a turkey, or something in a dutch oven).

I have always considered the pull down door more of a safety issue because you have to reach to get out anything and if it's heavy you are much more likely to spill and splash because you are in an unstable position. The door burn part is easily avoided with long mitts.

French doors vs. pull-down doors have their own list of relative pros and cons. Personally, everything else being equal, I'd prefer a French door over a pull-down door. But honestly, the differences are small in day-to-day use. You'll get used to either one real quick and compensate for the shortcomings of either design.

My biggest concern would be that the center seal between the two French doors requires tighter mechanical tolerances than the very basic overlay seal of a traditional pull-down door. So, manufacturers who optimize their manufacturing processes for cost rather than quality will probably experience failures with this part. But then, low-end manufacturers seem to shun French doors for a reason. So, maybe, that's a self-correcting problem.

I'd say, pick whatever you personally like and what's actually available, but don't overthink it. There are other details in oven design that make much more of a difference in your daily use.

Fully agreed on not getting a 48" range just because you want to get two ovens. This is a recurring question on Houzz, and with very few and specific exceptions, most home chefs wouldn't benefit from a 48" range. But the extra cost of much more complicated venting and the loss of upper cabinet space is very real.

If you want multiple ovens, either get wall ovens and a 30" or 36" range. Or if money is less of an issue, get a LaCanche in one of the intermediate sizes (i.e. 36" or 39"). You can then configure the top burners to include either induction or a steam cooker. You'll end up with a much more functional kitchen design.

In general, I find that there is a very good reason why the US has standardized on 30" for a range. I rarely suggest more than 36".

M - Right larger is not necessarily better. With a 30" Bluestar you can hold a full size baking sheet or 18 bread pans (which is more than any home mixer can handle).

Well My cabinets are already being fabricated so I can’t change stove top 36 inches. But I did call my contractor today to change the pull out dishwasher to a regular size and he said no problem I will just have to order some filler from cabinet company. And he’s Wanting me to hurry and decide on my stone hood so he can figure out the venting situation when the cabinets arrive.
And noway I would ever do a stove top with oven underneath Jennifer Hogan.. Omg I’d end up at chiropractor weekly! Unless you’re 4’ tall I guess... Pulling out my thanksgiving day turkey wld put me in traction for weeks.

“Jerry Jorgenson

I have always considered the pull down door more of a safety issue because you have to reach to get out anything and if it's heavy you are much more likely to spill and splash because you are in an unstable position. The door burn part is easily avoided with long mitts.”

Hmmm, I am 5’3” and have no trouble reaching whatever is on the rack from the front of the oven. If I did, The racks pull out so you could get your food as close as you want. I do pull the rack out for heavy stuff. I would agree you should not pull something out if you are in an unstable position like trying to reach from the sides. Someone here mentioned they wear shoes so they didn’t worry about spills. That can actually be worse because if the spill goes in your shoe, it holds the hot liquid next to your skin. Hot fat is even worse. I have not seen oven mitts that cover your shoulders or upper arm.

My whole working life has been incorporating proper body mechanics especially in lifting. I’ve worked in emergency medicine and critical care so I see what can happen. We own a business and one area centers around safe room environments. The point is that when you are looking at these ovens, consider all of the ergonomics and safety concerns of your oven. If you do like the French doors consider a pull out shelf. Make sure to get a door that opens all the way and stays open. You want to have as much information as possible so you can make the best decision for you.

As far as I know, all french door ovens come with pull out shelves. The one I have has one on rollers and two of the friction type. However, even the friction type are easy to move in an out--even with a load on them. The baking stone doesn't move, but you use a peel to put items on it so that's never a problem. Having the oven at the correct height for you means no bending over. I really like that as bending over with a heavy item is inherently unstable.

Jerry Exactly! For me I have to have the oven at correct height as I am pretty tall.. These days the only grunting & moaning going on in my household is bending over to pick up something off the floor.. : )

This is why I'm doing double ovens and a rangetop. Even at 5'2" I can't imagine bending over to get something out of the oven (even if it's not heavy). I'd be at the chiropractor every week.

In Europe, the BSH group makes a bunch of different ovens that have a pull-down door, but when fully pulled down, you can push it underneath the oven cavity. So, the door is completely out of the way giving you easy access to the oven.

I have never seen any similar designs sold on the US market. But it does sound like a very useful feature.

I’m sorry that I’m late to the party and haven’t read all the comments but can someone who has (or has had) a SZ fridge explain how a $25k SZ is truly better in performance than a $2k fridge (of any brand)? I am truly curious as it seems that I could replace a lower level fridge 10 times for the same price.

However, I don’t live in an area where SZ is common. It’s not something I want in my kitchen because my only company might be my extended family on holidays. While I don’t advocate making decisions based on the perceptions of others, I’m still not going to put a fridge in my kitchen that costs more than one year of their salary just because I can, especially since I’m not sure that the performance of a SZ is 10 times more than that of a lesser model. Again, that’s just me, though.

Shead where are you getting that number from?

“As far as I know, all french door ovens come with pull out shelves.“

They come with pull out racks. By pull out shelf, I mean something that provides a barrier and possibly a well to catch spills. It could also serve to hold a cookie tray while switching if you need to do that.

i have a pull out cutting board. So something like this.

I think I saw it upthread earlier but maybe not. It was early this morning (before coffee) and I didn’t have a chance to respond until now. I’m sorry if I misspoke. I would still like to know the perks of a SZ over other brands, though.

Yeah no . That total was for most of the kitchen appliances not just the subzero..

But even at over 12,000 you could easily buy six other fridges......I'm with you shead. Can't see spending that on a fridge, and wondering why people do?

How we spend our money, and what we value are personal decisions. I like the feel of nice appliances. I appreciate fit and finish, as well as performance and longevity. My aunt sees no difference between my Miele dishwasher and her Whirlpool one. For some people high end appliances are just a status symbol, like a Louis Vuitton monogram bag. To each her own.

@ Kim because they can afford it and it brings them a pleasure that the 6 cheaper ones won‘t. Same reason why people buy luxury goods of any kind—looks good, over engineered, brand cachet.

@Kim, shead, I know they are crazy prices but when in a area of home price points they are expected...We do plan on leaving this home in a box , (as my hubby says), but maybe when we get into our 70s this house might be too much and we will move back to our condo where we reside now while this home is being renovated.. I’m the one who insisted on moving to a big house, he prefers smaller condo. But we needed more rm for sleepovers for our grand baby & my 13 yr old little sister from BBBS(also will be able to get another “Little” after we move) ... I’ll be able to have slumber parties for them! Yippee or maybe wth was I thinking.. Haha.. So having these appliances is detrimental for resell..

I understand why people do spend the money for a SZ (especially when the homes in the neighborhood demand it for resale) but some say the price is worth it for the performance of a SZ. No one has answered that question, though: is the SZ worth more than the $2k refrigerators in performance or is it simply aesthetics?

shead -- I don't have an SZ, but from what I've read the main differences are:

1. Two compressors, one for the fridge and one for the freezer, which reduces freezer burn and more accurately controls temperature and humidity in both compartments.

2. The SZ removes the ethylene gas which causes food to go bad earlier.

3. The SZ has far better insulation, so there is much less change of food spoilage during a power outage.

I doubt it's aesthetics because a stainless steel door looks about the same on any fridge. (If aesthetics is a primary consideration, then Bluestar should be the choice with their hundreds of colours and finishes. Bluestar has all the features of SZ except the ethylene filter and also has a stainless steel interior).

Bobby - Our house is 1970s too. However, it's on the small side and appears to be the size of some of the kitchens shown in Houzz :-)

No Jerry! Our house is not 1970s I said when we get in our 70s age wise LOL

"No one has answered that question, though: is the SZ worth more than the $2k refrigerators in performance or is it simply aesthetics?"

Yes. I went round and round (and round) picking a fridge. We don't live in an area where high end appliances are common, I was making my decision based on performance and quality.

We have two separate columns, one fridge and one freezer, in different areas of the kitchen.

I absolutely notice a different in how well my SZ keeps produce fresh, its sort of amazing when I compare it to prior fridges. Very little goes to waste now where with prior fridges, fruits and veggies got sketchy very quickly.

Same with the freezer, I put things in it just in a regular gladware container or ziploc bag for a few weeks - zero ice crystals.

The interior shelving and bins are heavy duty, which sweetened the deal for me. We had a problem with interior breakage with prior fridges and the replacement parts were crazy expensive compared to the cost of the appliance.

@pennfire, thanks for the info! We plan to have a full size fridge only in our kitchen and a full size freezer only in our laundry room which will be adjacent to our kitchen in our upcoming remodel. That way, my freezer doesn't have to be "kitchen worthy" in appearance. I'm still not sure I would ever spring for a SZ, though, even though they look very sexy ;)

Thanks Pennfire, I see there are benefits. At our house with 5 growing children, 4 boys, we don't have a problem of food spoilage. Our problem is keeping that fridge stocked, lol.

One other benefit of Sub zero fridge was the size.... 48 inches. We like having a large refrigerator even with a 36 inch as a second in the laundry.

The other thing we like is having the panel to match our kitchen cabinetry instead of the stainless steel ( or other finish) to give a more finished look. But you do pay for it for sure. We are planning our retirement home and I really am leaning toward forgoing the Sub zero because 1. cost and 2. We are retiring in a more rural area and I am not sure how easy it will be to get a Wolf/Sub zero certified repairman out for service if or when needed.

The nice thing with these higher-end brands is that they are made to be serviced. With a special-of-the-month from Home Depot or Best Buy, there often is nothing you can do, when things break. Parts are frequently not available any more after even two or three years, and everything is built from cheap plastic parts that really don't lend themselves to repairs.

On the other hand, we regularly read about SZ fridges that easily last 25 years with only minor maintenance/repair. And when repair is needed, it is actually possible to do so.

Of course, initial purchase is much more expensive, and repairs (when they are necessary) also often cost a couple of hundred dollars. So, you'd have to decide for yourself whether you want to buy a brand new LG, Samsung, KA, ... every few years. Or if you want to buy your "forever" fridge, that gets repaired when things break.

And if you live in the middle of nowhere, you might have to settle for a repairman who isn't certified. That doesn't mean he'll do a horrible job. But it puts you at higher risk for mistakes.

Induction.

I haven't read through all the comments and you have received lots of advice. One thing I thought I'd mention, is to look at what percentage of the total cost of your dream forever home are you spending on your appliances? You are looking at the cost of the appliances and going "gulp" but what about the whole house.? This might give you a different perspective. This is the stuff that you see and will use every day, especially as you are a great cook. I think that with that in mind, I would get the appliances you really want and will get pleasure out of using. Look for the features that are pertinent to you and your cooking.

I renovated the kitchen in my primary house 17 years ago. I put in exactly what I wanted. I kept my sub zero from my original kitchen which is now 28 years old and still going. Every time I walk into that kitchen, my heart sings. it gives .me such pleasure to cook and be in that kitchen. I am now redoing the kitchen n my beach house. I have loathed this kitchen for 13 years. I keep saying that cooking in this kitchen is like building a house with a stapler and a pair of scissors.

I am on my 3rd ( maytag and frigidaire ) refrigerators and the current one is on life support at 3 years old. I can't wait to throw it out (it cannot be repaired). What i have spent on food which has been wasted and gone off quickly because the refrigerator does not have proper insulation and cannot maintain a low temperature, I could have bought 2 sub zeros. While I did research on other brands of refrigerators, I kept coming back to the sub zero. I cook a lot and I might as well be happy while I'm doing it.

If you can afford it and it is apparent you will use it often and well and get enjoyment out of it. get what you want.

Chiming in on the SZ question:

Pros: keeps food fresh for an almost unreasonable length of time, potentially lasts 25+ years, can be serviced, counter-depth, choice of sizes and styles (glass, stainless, custom panel-ready)

Cons: price, might not fit existing fridge void

Having replaced many refrigerators over the years (everything from GE/Whirlpool to LG/Samsung), we are finally installing SZ fridge and freezer columns. Servicing those other brands when something inevitably failed was always a huge hassle and expense. MOVING them was just as bad! We've had to completley remove all the fridge doors just to squeeze these monsters in/out of our houses-- a task made more hellish with the introduction of electronic bells and whistles in the doors with wires you have to properly reattach later. They don't last long enough to justify the hassle, so instead of setting money on fire for an appliance that juts out into my kitchen 6+ inches further than it should and is just going to make me mad in 2-5 years when something in it breaks, I'm investing in something that will disappear into my kitchen cabinet design and might outlast me. The price tag was hard to swallow, so I'm really hoping they live up to their reputation!

By definition, we can only tell you for sure that models built 25 years ago or earlier are known to regularly last 25 years. Nobody can guarantee that this is true for models built today.

But there are brands that have a long and proven track record over several decades. So, that should make you feel good that they'll probably continue paying attention to build quality and to serviceability. For refrigerators, in my personal experience SubZero is one of these brands. But for other types of appliances, it could be different brands.

And of course, there always are both negative and positive counter examples.

@BeverlyFLADeziner, I'm starting to hope so......otherwise, I cannot imagine what her house is going to look like when done. Every.single.thing is soooo over the top.

I'm starting to wonder if Bobby is the split personality of D E.

I found out that high end appliances also have expensive repair bills. So, that put me off those expensive brands.

@BeverlyFLADeziner, well, I guess I was doing a lot of assuming based off the comments of having a husband, a granddaughter, and a "little sister" :) But anything is possible.

Beverly my goodness ,, stalk much ! Im real and I’m designing my forever dream home and maybe you should spend more of your free time at church or feeding the poor instead of being so obviously envious and hateful..

And I love these granite sinks instead of the traditional stainless. They have some beautiful colors in browns/creams/coppers that wld blend so nice with my fantasy brown granite

We have sinks in our bathroom that are made from the countertop material. They are gorgeous. Definitely would do this again. And it wasn't particularly difficult for the fabricator to make them.

But I would be extremely hesitant to do the same thing in a kitchen. A bathroom sink doesn't do anything complicated. You wash your hands in it, maybe you brush your teeth or you shave, but that's it. A kitchen sink on the other hand is a heavily used kitchen appliance. It gets a lot of use and abuse. And it needs to fulfill a lot of different needs. Designing a functional kitchen sink is surprisingly difficult, as we regularly see when this discussion comes up on Houzz.

There are a handful of fine off-the-shelf models that you regularly see suggested in this forum. Or if you want something that looks awesome and that actually works, then go get a Rachiele sink. Dino Rachiele has spent decades figuring out what does and does not work. And he builds beautiful copper sinks, which sound as if that would be a good fit for your kitchen (he also builds stainless, if that's what you prefer).

A custom sink will cost more though. But if you can wait, Rachiele sinks sometimes do go on sale.

M -- Fully agree. My opinion is that the big problem with granite (or granite-work-alike) is that once stained or otherwise disfigured, it just looks broken. We choose wood and copper (Rachiele sink) because when the inevitable stain, burn, or dent happens, they just look as if they've been used and loved (though the Rachiele sink repairs itself in a short time). Granite needs to look perfect or be replaced. My guess is that most granite kitchens are purchased by those who seldom cook, or who are far more careful than I am.

Jerry Jorgenson - Thank you for the suggestion. My kitchen will be a small 10' long galley kitchen. Refrigerator and range on one wall, sink centered on the other, dishwasher next to the sink. May be able to do a wall oven, but will need to trade counter space. Again - always a compromise.

I’ve been researching these granite sinks and they have great reviews! And they’re not too expensive either..

Jennifer Hogan - Our kitchen is not much larger, and certainly there are always compromises. I've found that the workstation sink means that there's little need for more counter space as all the prep work stays in the sink. The baking table is far more useful than an island which would really make for tight walkways in the kitchen.

Kitchen · More Info

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@ functionthenlook

Blue Star does make ranges that have French doors. I like them, but they weren't worth the extra cost to me. Especially since I could buy a floor model in the color I wanted at a significant discount.

Link to Blue Star website

Moxie, I wouldn't pay that for just a door either. Plus I have an all electric house. Maybe when I need a new stove they will have more options.

Moxie -- We really like our Bluestar Electric Wall Oven. No bending over, built in baking stone with temperature probe (means that it really is up to temperature after preheating), can use full size baking sheets, and the broiler is just one step short of a salamander. It really replaces most of the microwave functions (as well as the regular broiler functions). We also like the simple controls that let you do the baking rather than doing the cooking for you the way so many ovens try to do these days. The colour choice was only a nice to have, not a decision maker.

Kitchen · More Info

When we downsized to our last-stop-before-the-nursing-home house, we deliberately chose one that hadn't been remodeled recently so that I could gut the kitchen and bathrooms to get what I wanted. Exterior work was needed too, so compromises were inevitable. Being a geeky sort, I had lists for each function and factors to consider and rank. Stealing some space from the kitchen to expand a powder room to a 3-quarter bath and build a main floor laundry, meant there wasn't room for a wall oven. The Blue Star electric would have been a contender if there had been room. My top requirements for a range were: gas (I love my heavy copper pots and pans which would crack a glass cooktop if one slipped from my grasp), no self-cleaning, no digital dodads, as little stainless steel as possible, no sealed burners, 30" wide, decent performance. Love, love, love my red Blue Star - now. The first couple of times I used the oven, I burned the bottoms of everything. The oven was heating 50F higher than indicated. Fortunately, it was easy to adjust once I found a tool that would work.

@Jerry Jorgenson - I see you have an Ankarsarum. Now that I'm retired, I bake more. I'm sooo tempted. Are you going to talk me down from the ledge or tell me to go for it?

I like my Ankarsarum. I use it when I make large batches. But anything 5lbs of dough or less, I often do just by hand. It takes about the same amount of time and clean up is a little faster. But that depends a lot on how comfortable you are with handling dough

Thank you, M. I'm fine with dough. The only mixer I've used in several years is my hand mixer. Obviously not for bread. Thinking the Ankarsarum might be nice for sticky dough like brioche.

M - I too usually make large batches. Mostly because I'm lazy and a large batch takes almost no more time than a small batch. Anyway we go through a loaf in two days, plus other goodies. However, I wouldn't hesitate to make a small batch--cakes and such.

Moxie - If you can mix it, you can make it with the Ank.