Parrotia often grows bigger in time than you want for this spot, for instance Seattle (USDA 8) had a set of specific, reliably measured examples that included ones 54', 50'+, 50', 45 1/2', 41', 40', and 37' tall by 2006. With another, this time in Britain being 46'+ in 2009.

Whereas there is a range of sizes among crape myrtles, so that you could presumably find one of these that wouldn't overwhelm that spot. For instance these selections - among others - have been made here in the US (notice also the height they give for 'Natchez'):

https://www.crapemyrtle.com/uploads/2/7/8/1/27814181/usna_crapemyrtleposter.pdf

It’s a nice tree - I rarely if ever see them around here. I’ve seen a couple decent size ones close to 15’ in the Chicago area. Very nice ornamental bark as they age.

I haven’t a clue what grows well in your area but I will tell you things grow unbelievable well in Seattle - more so than most the entire US. One will note if they travel the US the trees are much larger out there.

Do you have a temperate climate like Seattle or Britain?

Hi Whaas, I’ve just been having a similar talk on another question of mine about what’s similar to Sydney and it’s kind of seeming like beat example is that Sydney is a wetter version of San Diego/LA

They’re beautiful looking trees

Thanks heaps for all the info Embothrium!

I’ve seen a couple decent size ones close to 15’ in the Chicago area …. things grow unbelievable well in Seattle - more so than most the entire US. One will note if they travel the US the trees are much larger out there

"P. persica …. Records … an 8-trunked tree 60' tall x 75' wide at the Arnold Arboretum, MA (pl. 1881) … a trunk 8'8" around (at 6" from the ground) Flushing, NY (1972)"

-- Jacobson, North American Landscape Trees, 1996, Ten Speed Press, Berkeley

While larger specimens are certainly possible, given sufficient time, they are the exception, not the rule. Parrotias in my area tend to average out around 20-25 feet. And they take their time getting there!

The late winter flowers are interesting but often hard to see at any distance and I would not consider them a major feature. But the fall foliage color is stunning and reason enough to plant one.

There are Parrotia cultivars, one particularly attractive one is 'Persian Lace', sometimes sold as Lamplighter. It's variegated and therefore slower growing than the species. I have one planted in the ground for about 10 years that I planted as a squat #20 and it's about 12' tall and 8' wide. It's a gorgeous tree. There is also a nice weeper called 'Kew's Weeping' and one called 'Select' that is also slower than the species. 'Vanessa' is an upright form.

Parrotias in my area tend to average out around 20-25 feet. And they take their time getting there!

Yet the first part of the list I posted was a representative sampling from your area - as in there are additional ones of similar heights present also - and Sara's slower growing variegated form had still managed to get 12 ft. tall by 10 years from planting. Otherwise a body can always find any number of examples of a tree such as her specimen that simply haven't put in the time yet to have reached full potential size for their planting sites.

I was giving you a hard time as I don’t think we should instill a rule that all trees will grow to extraordinary heights in all areas.

Of course there is always the potential but picking out exceptions in areas with fantastic growing conditions - ie Seattle, Boston will yield nice large specimens across a “broader“ range of species than most areas. Mild winters, 50+” of precip and rich acidic soil of course you’re gong to get big ol specimens for species outside the typical native range of the local area.

I guess there are differences on what constitutes a "representative sampling". 4 out of 5 parrotias I have personally encountered here are at a much smaller size than those you quote and much more in line with the 20-25' size. I am aware of at least one, now more than 50 years old, that hovers around 15-18'. Not everything grows to the proportions you are so inclined to point out with virtually every thread!!

Just for kicks I googled 'kousa dogwood australia' to see they are available. Pursuant to my travel experiences in AU, it seems like northern hemisphere deciduous trees are more commonly grown and more easy to source in the Melbourne area. (I at least went through Helensburgh on the train. I have also been through the namesake Scottish town on the train! LOL) Interesting that the hybrid 'Eddie's White Wonder' is available 'down under'. https://www.kilbytreefarm.com.au/flowering-dogwood-trees-australia/

I would expect a Parrotia to grow faster in that climate than ANYWHERE in North America, but still not wildly fast, and probably not as fast as the crape myrtle. The Illawarra region is crazy mild and lush. Nothing like it in the US: the main difference between San Diego/LA and coastal NSW is not just "more rain" it's "no true dry season" and "summer rainfall peak, not winter". Although historically SE AU in general is somewhat more prone to heatwaves and droughts than similar 'highland subtropical' grading to 'oceanic' climates, hence even the possibility of the recent catastrophic fires. cf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollongong#Climate

BTW I hope by "red maple" original poster is meaning a Japanese Maple...and not a North American Acer rubrum. It's a junk tree in its native climate, and way too big for that lot! There have to be a million better things to plant in one of the world's best climates for growing both temperate and subtropical plants! That being said: cheap for nurseries in North America to produce...probably just as cheap for nurseries anywhere else in the world! So one supposes they would be available there.

Hybrid dogwoods, in the eastern US at least (summer rainfall) seem to have prolonged fall color. I saw this with my little baby 'Eddies'...kousa grafted which is why it can grow here at all. I see that the possibility of fall color is appealing to our OP Brefin (original poster - gardenweb lingo!) It's also true of this hybrid: https://nurcar.com/collections/woodies-c/products/cornus-ncch1-little-ruby%E2%84%A2 and another one I have.

Yikes, I see it now! Look, if you're EVEN THE TYPE OF GARDENER TO ASK ABOUT A PARROTIA...anywhere on this third rock from the sun, get rid of that Acer rubrum! Sorry if I come across as a plant snob LOL. It you like the red of maple foliage, plant a Japanese Maple! You will get a lot more red throughout the year, on a plant that is far more manageable.

Thanks David!

Were you travelling down the coast by train or just making a day trip when you came through Helensburgh? South coast NSW is a beautiful place.

It wasn’t really just the fall colour I was after with the red maple (oct glory) I just love how these trees look year round, even now during summer I find myself standing out the front just staring at its grey and green leaves,

Where I’ve planted it out the front it’s over 11m from the house, plenty of distance from anything out the front, 5.5m from the neighbours fence on one side, and 11m from the neighbours fence on the other side, so I thought from an over hang perspective and filling out the space that the size would of been ok.

I’ve got a couple of different japanese maples growing out the back planned around a balcony I’m going to eventually build off the house and we did consider some out the front but wanted something that would grow a bit taller so it could shade out the windows in summer from the 2pm time onwards.

I was wondering about a Dogwood tree when I was searching for alternatives, I even went to a nursery about an hour away that said they had them but when I got there they were quite scraggly looking and had horrible grafts, only reason I stopped looking into them was that I read they need a real cold to produce flowers, we get cherry blossoms out here so I’ve been wondering since I read that if the cold we get here is enough for a dogwood, after what you’ve said I’m going to start looking more in to the possibility of a dogwood, thanks again!

Cool, thanks for putting up with a deranged plant collector from 1/2 way round the world.

I guess it's hard for me to comprehend anyone planting trees I've spent roughly $25K managing on my 1 hectare property because of their weak woodedness, bad branching, and tendency to form split crotches that break in thunderstorms...between silver maples and red maples I've gotten rid of roughly 10, including 3 giant ones over 1 metre diameter trunks...they are impossible to garden under...but of course, an Acer rubrum does look unusual in the Illawara!

Yeah I took the train from where I was staying in Thirroul to downtown Sydney for the day. For one thing I wanted to see what a commuter train was like in AU. (I had also taken one in Melbourne) Since I'm kind of a fan of transit. Also I had mostly mastered left hand driving, faster than I thought I would, but I didn't want to drive the rental car in any cities. Funny thing, I read this wiki description of your town:

Helensburgh often seems like it has its very own climate compared to neighbouring locations, with visitors to the area often commenting that Helensburgh seems to be a couple of degrees colder than Sydney or Wollongong on the same day (especially in winter). Helensburgh also has a higher rainfall than its neighbours, although locals would claim that the difference between Helensburgh's rainfall rate and Sydney's or Wollongong's rainfall rates seems greater than what official sources would indicate it to be. Commuters can often be heard to complain about seeing clear blue skies in every other suburb on a rainy day in Helensburgh.

That was exactly my experience. It was partly overcast in Thirroul, but not raining...as the train got halfway there, it was lightly raining around your town and I thought "oh, no, will my bridge climb that I booked and prepaid a couple months ago be canceled, or wet". But downtown Sydney was clear, and sunny by the time of my bridge climb! One supposes these things happen because of the orographic lift.

I cannot know for sure, but I suspect the Pacific dogwood parent of 'Eddie's White Wonder' would mean it needs less chilling. That nursery in Victoria would surely know if it can do well for you and bloom.

Hahaha that’s ok mate, give me a few more years and I think I’ll become a bit deranged about it all too!

I’ve read nothing but stories of red maples with poor structure And the issues leading to that and my whole goal was to buy young and work on maintaining good growth structure while the tree is young and over the next 10+ years in a hope that it stands strong for a long time, kind of also want that tree that not many others have.

amazing how the weather is so different over such a short distance here, I’m a builder and I work from down south all the way north of Sydney and there’s days where I’ll be standing at work down in wollongong in sunshine and guys don’t show up because it’s raining heavily at their home in Sydney.

haha it’s weird that way with driving, I moved to Big White in Canada for a couple of years and I thought it was going to be much harder swapping sides of the road and sides of the car than it actually turned out to be!

Nice find with that wiki link! I have to agree with that, I’ve lived all over Sydney and I’ve never been as cold as I have been in Helensburgh, we also had heat waves a few weeks ago and out west of Sydney was hitting temperatures of 48.8c and we were getting temps of 44c which is decently different.

I just got off the phone to 4 different nurseries 3 in Victoria and one in NSW that sell Dogwoods and each of them said that they will cope well in Sydney weather though the leaves may scorch in hot afternoon sun if the water supply is poor, they all said that out of all the options eddies white wonder was the ideal choice, I’m going to go by the place that stocks them in NSW and have a look this weekend