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dspmusic

unique island shape opinion

dspmusic
3 years ago

We have been struggling to come up with an island shape that maximizes use of available space. We would like a large prep space and large sitting area, but don’t want two islands.

We came up with the island in the attached plan. Can you let me know your thoughts? Thanks!

Comments (40)

  • chicagoans
    3 years ago

    (not a pro) Sorry not a fan. It looks awkward and hard to work with. You've created a maze. Plus what would you use for a counter and how would the slabs look next to each other like that?

    Not sure I see the need for island seating so close to a table and right next to a couple of other chairs? (I'm hoping those were somehow left over from a previous version and not really intended there.)

    Is this a remodel or a new build? If it's a remodel, give folks an idea of your budget and goals and what you're willing to change (plumbing, pantry, other?) ; if it's a new build let everyone know what stage you're in (paper vs framing etc.) Either way, folks here can give you a much better layout. It would help to show a view with adjoining rooms.

  • PRO
    BeverlyFLADeziner
    3 years ago

    Stop. What your kitchen doesn't need is a maze.

    Why do you need seating for 5 at the island when a table is 5 feet away?

    Here is what I recommend

    Change the swing on the pantry door so it swings in

    The opening to the kitchen should be at the least 36" wide

    You can fit a 7 fit table with 8 chairs and an island with 3 counter stools


  • suezbell
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Not a fan. Consider an "L" shaped island the same depth as the kitchen island but with an angled corner opposite the sink. Do keep and extend the width of the kitchen rectangle but extend it only just wide enough so you can add an angled corner that mirrors the angled front of the sink countertop for the same width ( opposite the sink, of course ) then continue with your "L" shape with three stools on the dining room side and only two stools on the living room side because you definitely need more walking space between the island and the chair by the corner of the pantry.

  • dspmusic
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Thanks for your responses.

    Beverley, your idea to have the door swing in is very helpful. The seating area at the island is (1) our informal eating area, (2) a place for our guests to hang out with me when I am prepping and (3) a place for my kids to do their homework. 5 is the minimum requirement for seating. Also, the opening to the kitchen is 36”.

    Suezbell, your island suggestion sounds like a good one, but i am having a bit of trouble visualizing it. How wide are you saying the top of the L (dining room side) should be?

  • suezbell
    3 years ago

    Consider a bi-fold door for the pantry rather than taking up space for opening / closing a traditional interior door.

  • suezbell
    3 years ago

    How "deep" are you intending the left side of your kitchen island to be ... 4'? If so, would make a 4' deep "L" shaped island ... but with the corner across from the sink angled ... same angle and width as the edge of the countertop in front of the sink ... so your kitchen part of the islnad would be the same depth )exterior wall to living room) that you originally intended but, to add the angled corner, it would be a bit wider. Doing that, you could also move the island farther away from the exterior wall and give yourself a tiny bit of space between the island and the countertop along the exterior wall. Center that kitchen end of the island between the pantry and the front of the row of cabinets along the outside wall.


    You could have the part of the "L" that is alongside the dining room (closest to the living room) either stop even with the pantry wall or make it longer ... and, if you want it longer, you could even end it with a rounded rather than square end -- something like this but with that sharp corner across from the sink angled:


    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/13299761382257463/


  • live_wire_oak
    3 years ago

    Ditch the pantry all together. Ditch the kitchen design all together. Do anything else. Post the whole house to see what anything else might be.

  • Buehl
    3 years ago

    There isn't room for that island and the chairs to the left. People will have to move them every time they want to pass b/w the island and chairs. And if someone is sitting at either location (or both), everyone will have to get up to allow someone to pass b/w them (get up and move all chairs & stools out of the way.

    Regarding the seats at the island -- two seats cannot share a corner. So, the seats cannot be arranged the way you have them. The 3 seats along the long end will need to scrunch in together and go all the way to the left end of the island...that will leave 15" for the seat on the corner along the short side.

    7'3" = 87"

    87" - 24" (seat 1) - 24" (seat 2) - 24" (seat 3) = 72"

    87" - 72" = 15" just enough room for a 15" overhang for the corner seat along the short side.

    The way your design shows, the two corner seats are sharing leg space, which is not possible.

  • mama goose_gw zn6OH
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    You might consider a large peninsula which echoes the shape of the half-bay:

    If you don't need the 6th seat, that space could be another drawer base. The cabinets on the outside corner could be used for storage of table linens, candlesticks and table decor, or craft/homework supplies.

    The clean-up sink and cooktop could be rearranged, but that would put the cooktop farther from the fridge, and you'd lose some cabinet space:

    You could also use an appliance garage in the corner beside the ovens, and move the ovens and fridge down to widen the door as Beverly suggested:

  • PRO
    Patricia Colwell Consulting
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    IMO start over , you need an actual independant kitchen designer . That island is not good on so many levels . Angled anything is a PITA you need to show a to scale floor plan and also the spaces around this space . Where does the doorway go to? You have quite a large space that IMO could be a much better kitchen space without the walk in pantry . I assume the large sitting area refers to the island seating? If this is a new build forget the angled bay .

  • dspmusic
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Thanks for the comments. Here are some responses, that I hope provides some context:


    1. We used a designer for our overall plan and a designer for the kitchen. We did not like any of the designer's ideas for the island and started losing confidence in the designer, so we were working on our own island design. The island design for which I asked your opinion is not our designer's idea (which explains why nobody here likes it). Certainly a major fail on our part :)


    2. This is a renovation, not new construction. You can read more about our project here: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5878259/kitchen-design-stress-help


    The existing space has limitations, one which is a lack of wall space. I have included a plan my wife made of the adjacent spaces, so that you can see most of the 1st floor (this excludes garage, master bath and office. If you want to see precise measurements, see the thread I linked to (it's toward the end) . FYI, the dimension for the pantry are different than what is in the attached. The kitchen is completely open to the family room. We don't use the formal dining room as a formal dining room. The space at the top of the kitchen is our "breakfast room/dining room."


    3. While I am open to alternatives. We like having a walk-in pantry (we have alot of stuff to store and don't expect to have enough cabinet space to store it. There are structural reasons for keeping the pantry there as well. If we did not have a room there, we would need a post at the upper corner of the where the pantry is to support a steal beam. We could have switched the pantry and the powder room, but almost everyone we asked (including a couple of designers) recommended against having a pantry near the kitchen and family room.


    4. The sitting area adjacent to the pantry is just a thought we had about use of that space. We are still unsure, but open to ideas.


    5. Our designer proposed a peninsula, but we rejected because we think it is much better to have direct access to the breakfast room/dining room. We see this a major flow issue.


    Given the above, I don't think there are any major issues with our plan (aside from the island), but am open to opinions and can handle constructive criticism.









  • 1929Spanish-GW
    3 years ago

    Am I reading the floor plan correctly that the only entrance to the dining room is through the mudroom or through the family room, then the hall, then the dining room? Having originally had the dining room in our house through an intermediate room from the kitchen, I can tell you it's a very bad layout for flow and functionality. Coming from a small house, I know you have to make sacrifices.

    You need to design for what the house allows first, then what you really want minus what will fit = the best design for long term living.

  • dspmusic
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    1929Spanish-GW: The dining room is fully open to the foyer. Sorry that is not clear.




  • 1929Spanish-GW
    3 years ago

    Yes, but access is severely limited to the kitchen. You have to walk food, drinks and dirty dishes through the family room. It simply doesn't make sense.

  • dspmusic
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    1929Spanish-GW: Your concern is reasonable. This is something that we considered (if you look at the message thread linked to above, you will see that our original plan had a door directly into the dining room). We have thoroughly discussed the issue with our designers, builder and a couple of real estate agents.


    After weighing pros and cons (a con being that there would be to entrance ways next to each other), we decided that we could live with access to the dining room through the mud room. Keep in mind that we will never be using the dining room as a dining room and plan on being in the house for at least 20 years. Our dining room is a piano room (grand piano takes up most of it).

  • Mrs. S
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Oh, I'm not a designer, nor an expert, but I didn't see anyone else say this. What's screwing up everything in your design is that *** walk-in pantry! It's a sore thumb!

    If you read a lot of posts in the Kitchens forum, you'll learn as I have that walk in pantries sound great, but in reality, it's wasting floor space. Pull out pantries on the other hand, can be counter depth, and have masses more storage per square foot. It just takes some getting used to the idea!

    And think of it, if you had cabinetry around the L-shaped perimeter of the kitchen, the "walking space" part of the pantry could be the walking space around the island!

    I know I'm an amateur, but if you make the pantry counter depth, then you can turn the island so the long side faces the family room. You'd have a large island, which is probably your goal. (I know I'm not solving everything about your downstairs floor plan, but just keep in mind that you can save space without that pantry in your drawing).

  • dspmusic
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Mrs. S. Unfortunately, there are structural reasons why we need a room there (to support a steal beam), so that space is either a pantry or a powder room There was a 2 story wall and stairs between the family room and kitchen. We removed them and had 5 steel beams installed to support the weight of the 3 story house. I am not technical enough to understand, but the engineer's plan requires something under the beam that runs down the center of the house where the pantry is, in this case that something is the wall to the pantry.


    Also, the pantry serves to provide some separation between the family room and kitchen. It is currently framed and looks very good. But I agree with you 100%, the pantry is making the kitchen design painful!!!

  • jslazart
    3 years ago

    I think Buehl gave you the best options several weeks ago. You have plenty of room to set up additional homework/storage space in the "sitting" area you aren't otherwise sure what to do with.

  • felizlady
    3 years ago

    If the big table is in a formal dining area, I guess stools in the kitchen would be acceptable. If that is a family dining table, skip the stools altogether. The upholstered chairs are too close to your island and block access. The island has six hip-bruise corners. Cutting granite or any material with veining to fit that island may be a nightmare unless the width and length at the widest points in both directions fits within the size of a single slab. A rectangular island maximum 4” shorter and 4” narrower than a slab will allow for trimming any chips or dings from the edges if you want a large island.

  • tedbixby
    3 years ago

    You may want to blue tape out on the floor your island shape, island chairs and the diningrm set. It's amazing how doing something so simple can give you a better idea of how it will actually feel and work in your space.

  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Wide pullout pantry cabinets (>18"W), especially deep ones, are one of the least functional pantries you can get. This has been discussed so many times, but I'll try to summarize here....

    First, the "sweet spot" for pantry shelf depth is 12". They're deep enough to line up 3 or 4 cans deep, cereal boxes, the vast majority of small appliances, etc. But they're not so deep that things get lost. Shelves deeper than 15" (and even 15" can be an issue) lead to things being lost and forgotten.

    .

    Built-in pantries (reach-in, step-in, walk-in):

    • Allow you to see everything with a single sweep of your eyes
    • Utilize the entire space, floor-to-ceiling (no cabinet frames, toekicks, limited heights, etc., to get in the way)
    • Allow 12" deep shelves
    • Allow you to have adjustable shelving with many more height options than in a cabinet.
    • Reach-in pantries definitely do not waste floor space! Yes, walk-ins often do, especially those huge ones with counters, extra refrigerators (bad idea), etc., in them.

    .

    18" or narrower pullout pantries:

    • These are cabinets in which the shelves in the cabinet are attached to the door and the shelves pull out when the door is opened.
    • Limiting their width to 18" means you can see everything without having to move things around b/c you can look at both sides of the pullout, not just one side.
    • Due to weight constraints, most likely they won't be all one door for the height of the cabinet, they will most likely be split halfway with a door on top and a door on the bottom half. This does mean you have to open multiple doors to find things.
    • You cannot see everything with a sweep of your eyes, you'll not only have to open multiple doors, you'll also have to look at first one side and then the other.
    • You also lose space b/c it's in a cabinet, not "freestanding", meaning you lose vertical space to the toekick as well as to the space above the cabinet. You also lose space to glides.
    • You can help mitigate the space lost by a toekick by getting a toekick drawer -- but not all manufacturers offer them.
    • Note: The first cabinet shown above is not a pullout pantry; it's a pantry cabinet with roll out tray shelves (drawers would be much, much better!) The second is. That one appears to be two 18" pullouts side-by-side - possibly half-height with stationary shelves above.

    .

    Wider pantry cabinets

    • These are arguably the least efficient types of pantry storage. (I think the only worse kind is stationary shelves deeper than 15", especially above chest level.)
    • Their depth makes it easy for things to get lost and forgotten. Yes, the lower shelves might be roll out tray shelves, but you still have to move things around to find things.
    • Anything above about chest level will be even more difficult to find. Think about looking up at a shelf with contents above your eye level -- you're not going to see anything, even with ROTS.
    • You will have to rummage around finding things because 24" deep and >18" wide means things will have to "stacked" behind other things, often unrelated or at least different.
    • You will have to repeatedly open/close doors and roll out tray shelves to find something since you cannot see things above your head.
    • With ROTS, you run risk of things falling off the shelves when you pull them out -- you'd be better off with a series of shallow drawers from about chest height to the toekick. The drawer walls will keep things corralled and making them shallow means you won't be stacking so you can see more.
    • Anything above head level will be unseen and forgotten (unless you get a step stool out)
    • Even those (very expensive) swing out gadgets won't help a lot, you still have to swing each one out an search it, swing it back to open the next one and swing them all back in correctly to be able to close the doors.
    • Note: The first cabinet shown above is this type.
  • Buehl
    3 years ago

    Actually, that room provides some badly needed separation of the spaces so it doesn't have the "grand ballroom" or bowling alley effect. It will also help with noise abatement, at least a little.

    The above are one of the problems of large open spaces -- and why many people are now closing up their spaces a bit -- adding some separation.

    I actually think a short wall segment on the opposite side would be good for both a bit of separation and to balance the required wall (and pantry).

    Two options if you create a wall segment on the other side:

    1. Line it up with the inside pantry wall and that extra space becomes part of the Family Room. You would need to add a bit of wall by the Dining area, but it would provide a bit of separation there as well.
    2. Line it up with the outside wall (FR side) and that extra space in the middle becomes part of the Kitchen

    I would prefer the first option

  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Oh, I also wanted to point out that you need at least 15" to 18" between a corner sink cabinet and a DW so you have room to stand in front of the sink with an open DW door. As it stands in your layout, you will have issues.

    What is that "wall oven and microwave" note? Are you planning a tall cabinet to house them? Or are you planning to mount a wall oven under the counter? If the latter, be aware that wall ovens mounted under the counter are much lower than ovens in a range. When we considered it, our KD insisted we see one installed first. We were appalled at how low the oven was! The oven handle barely cleared the floor! Needles to say, we immediately nixed the idea!

    Turning the island would negate the usefulness of having it face the range wall. Islands like this work best when the long side faces the range.

    .

    In the end, it's all up to you. We can only explain pros/cons to you, you are the one who has to decide what to do.

    Whatever you decide, you will be making in informed decision -- weighing the pros/cons. When done, you won't be in a position of regretting a decision because no one told you the pros/cons, you know them and will be going in knowing what will/will not work.

    Good luck!

  • darbuka
    3 years ago

    “First, the "sweet spot" for pantry shelf depth is 12". They're deep enough to line up 3 or 4 cans deep, cereal boxes, the vast majority of small appliances, etc. But they're not so deep that things get lost. Shelves deeper than 15" (and even 15" can be an issue) lead to things being lost and forgotten.”

    Totally agree, @Buehl. Here’s our reach in pantry, with 12” shelves.



  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Darbuka: Nice! Even your cookbooks fit nicely! :-)

  • live_wire_oak
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I just figured out why the island shape was bugging my brain. It’s an island mullet!



  • suezbell
    3 years ago

    Have you considered swapping the location of the dining room and kitchen? If not, do at least see what options you would have -- see if you could do it. The powder room would already be putting plumbing on that side of the house anyway so it's worth checking out.

  • PRO
    BeverlyFLADeziner
    3 years ago

    We have no idea of any limitations for the appliance/plumbing locations, but it does appear that your might be trying to shove a long of things in an area that has no space when there is actually plenty of space elsewhere in the area.


    A walk in pantry is something desireable for any kitchen, but I would sacrifice it to gain a reasonable island with seating that you say your require.


  • Kicksychick
    3 years ago

    Which of the 4 pantry walls is required to stay, according to your engineer?

  • everdebz
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Brainstorming about plumbing above or below this floor, near the entry closet -- this is unusually small. Your foyer is 7' wide... ?

    Hugh Jefferson Randolph Architects - 3' 2" x 6' 2" under regular stairs, and totally up to code. To open the door push on the outside and a spring-activated hinge and latch open up. I don't have a record of the make or part number but they’re the same hinges as airplane bathroom doors have. · Risinger Homes: I'm the contractor ... I've got the specs for the hinges and the touch latch on my blog at www.risinger.blogspot.com/ Those are Sugatsune. Here's a video review I did on that hinge. “Nice use of the best Push Latch for full size doors you can buy anywhere! Others can buy it from www.betterbuildinghardware.com.” An exhaust fan masks sounds.


    Harris Powder Room · More Info


    Harris Living Room · More Info


  • everdebz
    3 years ago

    ? mudroom powder room become part of another space ?

  • dspmusic
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Barbara, there are two steel beams that start at the breakfast room and end at the corners of the pantry closest to the family room and kitchen. So both of those walls must stay or we would have to put posts there.

    Beverly, we LOVE your idea, but per the above, we have to have a pantry or other room at that location (or posts) to support the steel beams.

    Everdebz, without adding on to the house, we don’t have any other location for the mud room/powder room. The under stairs idea is cool, but we’d like something more gracious for our guests.

  • Mrs. S
    3 years ago

    I would get a quote to get rid of those load-bearing posts and put in a steal beam.

    At least you'd know what the cost would be.

    I have a couple neighbors who did that, although I know it would be expensive where I live...


    And yet, if the house is worth enough money to justify a huge remodel like this, and with the cost of stone/quartz on all that countertop.... I'd want to know if I'd have been just as happy with laminate or wood countertops for a few years, and get the right design for the kitchen, not to mention the rest of the downstairs.

  • Buehl
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    You have a large Kitchen and there is no need to cram all three work zones into one small space -- which is what the latest suggestion does.

    The long line of counter on the bottom is not very useful since it's (1) too far from the refrigerator and range to be used as a Prep Zone, especially without any water there and (2) the Mudroom door/doorway is spills out into the Kitchen right there.

    Do you ever have anyone help you in the Kitchen, even if it's just to cleanup? If so, cramming all three primary work zones in that space will make it difficult for two of you to work there at the same time.

    For someone who cooks a lot, a nice Prep Zone separated from the Cleanup zone is ideal -- if the Kitchen is big enough and well designed functionally. Yours is big enough and can definitely be functional.

    You've had several suggestions that would work, but for some reason you're resisting every one of them.

    Maybe it's time to take a step back and take a break before coming back to the project. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the minutiae that we cannot see the bigger picture. I know it helped us when we remodeled our Kitchen. Just a week or so is probably all you need (that's all we needed to come back with fresh eyes and "rejuvenated".)

    Maybe read the following FAQs before coming back.

    Kitchens Forum Design Best Practices/Guidelines FAQs:

  • everdebz
    3 years ago

    As to use of rooms: the piano room --- if LR were moved next to it, could a nice door, or just opening, allow tv watchers to listen to piano also?

    bathroom elsewhere. Idk if entry has fancy door, etc... but could a powder room go to left of door? then master's entrance from elsewhere.....

  • PRO
    The Cook's Kitchen
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    It would seem that the steel beams are not planned to be long enough.

  • live_wire_oak
    3 years ago

    Swap the DW and the trash. And the island is still an issue.

  • dspmusic
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    live_wire-oak:


    I hear you on the DW and trash. Having the sink on an angle is the issue. Originally I had DW to left of sink but both kitchen designer and cabinet person said DW to the left of sink would open into path of person washing dishes. DW is on right because there is space to put small cabinet (or something to hold the space) immediately to right of sink followed by dishwasher, which will result in open DW not being in the way of person standing in front of sink. There is not enough space to the left of sink to move the DW further away from the sink Also, it's not so bad, because dirty dishes will be brought to counter to the left of sink, scraped into garbage and cleaned in sink (as needed) and then put in DW, so I think the flow is good.


    Island is what it is. Nobody (two designers and an architect) has come up with a non-issue island except to make it smaller than we would like. We've taped it out in the space, and think this is as good as it gets.





  • tedbixby
    3 years ago

    You've done your homework and have put a lot of thought into this. It may not be perfect (is it ever?) you know what your wants and needs are and what trade-offs are necessary to achieve them. Looks to me that your plan is perfect for you. I wish you and your family lots of memorable meals and joy in your new kitchen. And when it is completed please post photos.

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