Internet reviews are worse than useless. Their day was from about 1994 to about 2004. Today they are gamed from every angle. They tell you nothing about what you can expect the contractor to do for you. You'll do just as well picking a contractor at random.

That's also pretty much you're doing when you contract through the big chain stores. Their employees don't do the work, they subcontract with local contractors. What you get depends on who they subcontract with. You have no control over it. You may get a winner or a loser. As I said, you're picking at random.

I had just as good results hiring people out of the local tabloid newspaper as from the recommendations on Angie's List.

The most useful source of references for good contractors will be your personal connections - friends, family, co-workers.

I will say that most, though not all, of the better people I've hired have been the older guys. On the whole, they seem to have a stronger pride of workmanship and work ethic than the younger ones. To my surprise they aren't usually the highest bid.

Age is no guarantee, though. I'm thinking of a roofer who tore the roof off one of my rentals, threw tarps over it, and then apparently went on a bender and never returned. I didn't know until the tenants called to complain about the rain pouring in. Thank goodness he was bonded.

My first inclination is to say that whether any contractor was in the union probably doesn't make any difference. However, I've never actually asked contractors about their union or non-union background, so I don't know for sure.

If a person without workman’ compensation insurance is hired and is injured on your property, you are liable for all his medical and rehab expenses. Just my two cents....

"My assumption was Lowes will get it done right and if there's a prob i can go to them later."

I would never buy a prehung door (or any millwork for that matter) from Lowes so I there would be zero chance of my letting their installer on my property let alone install for me. Complete crap shoot with the Lowes installer. A retired union carpenter could be good and could be terrible, you need to vet him, see his previous work, make sure he is licensed and insured. Not a straight up question we can answer for you. You have had enough issues, I would think you would be getting better at the hiring of sub process by now. And you do not need to go into the fact that you live in the sticks and there are no good contractors near you, I remember from the last time you chastised me and several others for not knowing that. Also I said I was thru attempting to you but just can't help myself.

The nice guy you know at Lowes probably has no idea who your installer will be.

As installers for box stores go, it's hit or miss... We constantly get calls to do repairs or finish the work that box store installers left unfinished or simply screwed up the installation simply because they don't get paid enough if something they cannot finish that same day and return the next... IMO simply because they are overworked and underpaid and I heard the same from guys who use to do the work for box stores.

Your retired guy may save you money, but he'll get a big fat red tag from inspection were he in Florida. They are quite strict about licensing here, especially window and door installations. Lowes would have to send licensed guys.

As a licensed contractor, I've done bathroom punch-outs for box store boys that couldn't finish.

If a person without workman’ compensation insurance is hired and is injured on your property, you are liable for all his medical and rehab expenses.

Only if you are negligent, which you would largely be liable for anyway. You are responsible for maintaining a safe work environment. You are not responsible for his inability to avoid injuries that are a reasonable risk of his work. If a handyman breaks a finger when he hits it with a hammer, that is on him. If you have several rotted boards on your porch and the contractor breaks an ankle falling through one, that is on you. With worker's compensation he can only sue you for amounts which were not covered by worker's compensation, but he can still sue you.

I recommend everyone have an umbrella policy to protect themselves from either.

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In my home state contractors are not even licensed, btw.

We had several window door companies come out and noone mentioned permitting the job. they did mention code, though, like the fire door swinging shut...

The company that works with Lowes all seem to know each other. I wonder if this Lowes could have a different set up or if it always works that way-Lowes tends to use the same companies and gets a cut, isn't that how it works? This Lowes has the guys at the windows dept, some more knowledgeable than others, then the window guy who deals with window we'd want installed by Lowes. He seems to be a full time employee and that's all he does. Who is the one who is underpaid? Him or the subcontractor? The Lowes guy seems to want my business, so I'm not sure if they get a portion of sales or how it works.

Sounds like most folks here would go straight through a window/door company? I could always use the mom and pop shop Lowes sent out directly but that didn't seem right, like stealing work from Lowes. My thoughts was Lowes isn't going anywhere. Maybe I'm naive but this particular Lowes talks about how they will stand behind their customer and the jobs and make things right... I did have them install blinds 15 yrs ago and I remember not liking the amount of sun that came through as a couple were cut too small and they came back and cut new blinds and reinstalled.

Good point about the workman comp.

Not a good feeling to think I'm comparing 2 not great choices. :(

I do have that window company that would cost a bit more... They had good ratings but I dont' know what to think about ratings anymore. From what i remember they had a lot of ratings.

I asked the retired contractor for referrals

There are good installers who work for Lowes and there are bad installers who work for Lowes. You will know which one you got after he leaves. I had Lowes do a backdoor out of a kitchen on a rental property. The wall was partially tiled and the moulding didn't match up with the previous moulding. The installer didn't center the door and so there is a 1" tile gap on one side and none on the other. I made it look OK but it is not great. The work was cheap and it was a rental property so it is what it is.

I would pay for a quality finish carpenter over Lowes installers for a front door. I can't believe that your finish carpenter is cheaper than Lowes. In my area Lowes is the bottom of the barrel for contractor jobs, those are the people who can't generate enough work on their own.

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Lowes is the standard economies of scale model for contractors. They pay little for each job and have high(ish) demands. On the other hand they may pay little for each job but they guarantee a lot of jobs. Window and door companies are often not much better. Their installers make less money than the Lowes guys do but have none of the pains of self-employment.

IMO, a finish carpenter who works as a finish carpenter is your best bet. I would pick a retired finish carpenter over Lowes or a window and door company. However, all of this is just a generalization. Just because 7 out of 10 finish carpenters would do better doesn't mean you found one of those 7. Just because Lowes installers are generally less skilled doesn't mean yours is. Just because window and door companies generally pay salesmen well and installers poorly doesn't mean yours does.

In the end you need to look at local reviews and talk to the actual people who will be installing your doors and just see.

retired NY union contractor

A retired union finish carpenter? Yes.

A retired 'contractor', as in a job coordinator, boss, pencil pusher, etc, etc, etc. Nope.

You'll be well served to hire a licensed and insured contractor--not some "retired union guy." You can argue the legal points ad infinitum with internet experts, but it's best to avoid them altogether.

Interestingly, we have a general contractor for thebthe bulk of the job. We were able to save a couple of thousand by using our own electrician and another thousand by using our plumber. If the contractor only charge 25% on top of typical fees I would be okay with that but they tend to charge three times the amount for many things. I made sure that our contractor was licensed bonded and insured but never once thought about workers comp. I checked with three referrals for the carpenter retired union guy when they all love him. One person showed me a bunch of pictures of work that he has done in their house and one woman told me that he came and fixed some doors at Home Depot couldn't get right. I asked all these people if they knew if he had insurance or workers comp and none of them had thought to ask either.

If things go wrong are you going to blame the” union guy” or yourself for not choosing an actual door company?

If things go wrong (when you hire a door company) are you going to blame the "door company" or yourself for not choosing a highly recommended union guy?

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My advice is to do your research and let it guide you to the best person for the job. Certainly bonded and insured are part of that consideration but are still only part.

As for worker's comp... I have had rentals for more than 30 years and I have had hundreds of workers come and go and I have never worried about worker's comp. It is the exact same responsibility you have to people walking on your sidewalk and you are reasonably more likely to end up in litigation for that.

Everyone should consider an umbrella policy for that reason.

thx bry911. I have wondered about an umbrella policy, lately, I hear they are $$. This guy is a retired union carpenter and retired GC after that. I liked what I heard about him and he seems straight forward and kind. He said he doesn't have to work but is working to help put money in an account for his grandson cuz his daughter is a single mom. Yes, we could get sued at any time by anyone and we've all heard the stories. What I have heard is that somexs people don't have a choice to sue cuz they can't pay their medical bills and it might not be them specifically who goes after the homeowner but their insurance company or something like that...

We just got a trampoline and are digging a huge hole to put it in ground and it has a net. We also have a pool. we really should look further into an umbrella policy anyway. I enjoy having neighborhood kids over and ya never know... The things we could do "right" are never ending. I agree that it is a full package decision. It's not easy and I don't like risks but the amount of money we've been spending on licensed people and big established companies where I've been left disappointed, or broke, has been disappointing.

thanku

I know there is supposedly some program in my state for self employed people to get workman's comp but I don't know anyone without employees who pays for workman's comp. Liability insurance is relatively cheap for self employed contractors but rates increase when an employee is involved.

You may be surprised to find an umbrella liability policy may not be as expensive as you expect. The exact cost will vary by state and insurer but ours is only a couple percent of our total annual insurance bill. It is cheap peace of mind for us and I would recommend it for anyone who has assets greater than the policy limits on standard auto and homeowners insurance

I have wondered about an umbrella policy, lately, I hear they are $$.

We pay a bit over $50 per month for $5 million in coverage but we also have some properties that make it sensible to have that much. It is about half that for $2 million in coverage for us, with a single property and no acreage it would be less. I advise everyone with a pool get a personal umbrella policy, attractive nuisance laws make it a necessity.

If the OP was so confident in the “union contractor”, why the need to come to a forum for reassurance?

If the OP was confident about the "door company," why the need to come to a forum for reassurance? Apparently the "door company" didn't inspire enough confidence to sway the OP... If your advice was based on anything other than a self-interested bias you would have asked about the specific door companies and offered real advice. Yours is basically that every door company in every location does the best work. Which is completely false.

Work is done locally, by local people, and you must investigate those people specifically rather than some generalization on conditions that exist in aggregate hundreds or thousands of miles away. If you want a job done right start looking for someone with a history of jobs done right, regardless of the shingle hanging outside their door.

ETA: Here is a hint: When your statement is just as valid with a different subject, it is often just a bias.

Great info about the umbrella policy thank you! To clarify if I did not say this before, I did go to several window company and I am towards the end of the job so saving money at starting to sound really good and important right now where the coronavirus it and I did not expect to be mostly out of work. As of now I'm glad to have found this Carpenter because I'm hopeful he can be helpful with other jobs too.

The knack of picking cheaply and badly is sorta ingrained here. People make their own 99% bad choices that ensure bad results. And you can bet it will happen again and again. Picking cheap always ensures you GET cheap.

Anyone cheaper than Lowe’s is a huge red flag. A box store for millwork is a huge red flag. Your not a bull, stop running *towards* red flags instead of away from them.

"Windows Only" may be an exception, but my observation has been that the installers who work for window companies are not well paid, nor are they especially skilled. They're mostly young, and the jobs usually have a high turnover.

One reason for the turnover and mediocre level of craftsmanship is that - again in my personal observation and knowledge - the installers aren't paid a good wage. You know who gets the lion's share of your installation labor charges? The salesman and the company owner. Not the guy who installs it, for sure.

I've had perfectly good door installations done by ordinary handymen. If the OP has actually lined up a veteran carpenter, chances are that she'll get a better job than almost any window and door specialty company would do, and for less money.

thx everyone. I feel good about this guy. I was also talking with my dad a bit ago about the union. Union workers need more schooling and have more rules is what he told me. He probably has more expertise than someone who hasn't been in the union. I have to say, too, seeing pics and hearing directly from the satisfied 3 customers in town was helpful, too. What I have also found is someone who works for themself wants to make sure they protect their name and do a good job and Lowes was actually more $$$ than the window company and more than Home Depot. Lowes is having a sale so in the end they all ended up being pretty close but it really depends on the door...

To be sure, union members have more rules to follow, but their union membership doesn't confer more technical expertise in their discipline. In my experience, it just implies higher labor cost.

I would NOT use Lowes. I would ask friends for recommendations. I've remodeled several houses and all my subs come with personal recommendations. I wouldn't do it any other way.

glad I got the referrals, then. they rnt friends but I did get to see pictures from one of them. Thank you

Funny, it seems as if the ones bashing unions are the ones in management - people who own businesses in the trades. Who would have thought it? :)

MamaSage, if the referrals came from the tradesman himself, I'm sorry to say that they're not worth any more than online reviews. He's going to omit any negatives.

The sad fact is that unless you can get a direct recommendation from a disinterested friend, relative, or co-worker, there's no really good way to predict how things will turn out. Even then, you sometimes get burned.

Without that, you just have to trust your instinct. If possible, start by hiring the person for a small job. If you're satisfied with the results, hire him for a larger one. If you find someone who keeps doing good work, for goodness sake, hang on to him! Marry him if you have to. (Just kidding.)

But you can't do this test with a large company, only an individual. When you hire a large company, the actual work will be done by an employee, or even by a subcontractor. You have no way to know who you'll get.

You can read lots of examples of the potential results right here on GW. And to be fair, I'm sure we hear far more about the disasters than about the successes. But to show you what surprises can turn up, here's a personal one.

Several years ago, I had a mini-split heat pump installed by a fairly large local HVAC company. They were well reviewed online (this was before I'd fully learned my lesson about that), and their bid was competitive.

At the time, mini-splits weren't common for residential use in the USA (they still aren't really). The company assured me that they'd installed "hundreds" of them for businesses. That may have been true. But watching him, it hit me about halfway through the job that the specific employee they sent had never installed one before.

To be sure, union members have more rules to follow, but their union membership doesn't confer more technical expertise in their discipline. In my experience, it just implies higher labor cost.

But does that mean that the average union job is not higher quality than the average non-union job? Unions typically create a skill floor. So when comparing two experienced craftsmen the union guy may not be any better than the non-union guy. However, the odds of seeing unskilled labor on a union job are significantly less than the odds of seeing unskilled labor on a non-union job.

I suspect that does change generally accepted quality. People respond to their environment and no one wants to be the worst guy on the job. If you spend your career working around skilled workers doing good work you are likely to do better work also. If you spend your entire career around lower skilled workers you don't really have to elevate your work.

So who is likely to encounter more low pay and low skill workers on a job, a union guy or non-union guy.

You have four jobs that need to be done. Why not just hire the union guy to one job? If you like the work, hire him for the rest.

wdcruise, union guy prefers to come out I'm do the three doors at once. It might take him a couple days but he doesn't want to do it in pieces which is probably fine. Other jobs have already been appointed two other people. I am looking at what else I might be able to have him do, at least hanging blinds Honda new front one light door and Window if he is good with doors. I would think hanging up blind is just a couple of screws but I would still want the right person putting holes in my fiberglass door.

it's good to hear everyone's perspectives. Thx!

Just for clarity, I am not advocating for the union guy, I am advocating for the person who your research on, and interactions with, lead you to believe is the best person for the job. If that is the union guy, then so be it. It is hard to comment on the savings without a frame of reference. Saving a thousand dollars on $500 of doors is very different than saving it on $15,000 of doors.