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katharine_harris33

Pruning a leggy FLF - against all odds

5 years ago

I know I need to prune my fiddle to make him fill out again, but (1) I'm not sure which of the three branches would be best candidate since there are limited leaves left to generate energy from, (2) I am terrified the pruned limb won't grow back since his health is - confusing. I understand I shouldn't prune unless the tree has ideal growing conditions.


Some background: Friedrich has been through phases of browning leaves that drop, followed by beautiful crops of new leaves. So he's not perfectly happy, but he's content enough to keep fighting. His legginess is a direct result of older leaf drop, not reaching for light. I have gone to great lengths to improve his health (root pruning helped IMMENSELY), I got him a grow light, he has a personal humidifier, and I only water him when the water meter is "dry". Yes, he is spoiled rotten but these are the lengths one must go to when living in a dry apartment where the southern-facing window has a forced air heater below it... sigh.


SO - I have read a lot about where on the branch to cut, but the advice often says to cut right above a leaf. In this case there are no leaves lower on the branch... Can the dormant nodes still be reactivated?


There are three branches - One is the clear dominant branch, the 2nd is a slightly thinner branch, and the 3rd is thinnest and only produces smaller leaves. My gut is to prune the tallest, strongest branch, though this is home to a good number of leaves, including two new baby leaves : ) Any advise on which branch to prune?


Since I have been seeing new growth (2 leaves every 2-3 months I'd say), is Friedrich healthy enough to embark on this mission?



Some glamor shots below for reference:




Comments (23)

  • 5 years ago

    "is Friedrich healthy enough to embark on this mission?"


    I would say that Friderich is downright coddled and looks wonderful, and in fact is probably producing about as much greenery as the pot's root mass implies he can produce.

    My gut response, as a fairly hard pruner of things when I get going, is to take both main branches and leave the small one, allowing the plant to regenerate from that. Frid here, if I may be personal, doesn't look like he has any problems in sight. But I understand the hesitancy and the inappropriateness of the date (January not exactly being optimal for pruning these). So perhaps just the large one first and see what happens.


    One suggestion I have to take advantage of the southern window is a television stand, the sort where people place their sound bars under the TV. I have one for my sound bar, except in your case, Friderich would sit on the stand, and the forced air heater would be under it, where it can happily heat your apartment without interfering with Friderich's light (and he'd get a three to five inch boost into it).

    https://secure.img1-fg.wfcdn.com/im/79129198/resize-h800%5Ecompr-r85/3887/38879185/Ivanna+TV+Stand+for+TVs+up+to+28%2522.jpg

    I didn't link to this directly (it's like $45, which is bloody ridiculous). I could build this out of scrap wood for $2 and get something off Wish for $15. Just a simple single step-stand, basically. A plastic deflector atop the heater can be used to push the air into the room, but I don't think you'll need it. The stand will do that all on its own--and without directing air past the window.

    Kat H thanked User
  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Brown on the leaves is usually a sign of over watering. Moisture meters do not work. They sense salts in the soil and not actual moisture.

    Use a sharpened wooden dowel to sense moisture. Stick all the way in and pull out and inspect. Dark, damp with soil clung to it: don’t water. Clean snd dry: water.

    Ficus can handle drought a lot better than they can handle being over watered.

    waiting to prune until day lengths are at their longest (mid June) will give you much more favorable results in terms of back budding snd enthusiastic growth.

    You can prune now, but with day lengths being as short as they are, you will not get results anywhere near what you’d get around summer solstice.

    Kat H thanked Dave
  • 5 years ago

    Thank you for the advice! I wonder, do the external seasons matter since the grow light is the primary light source? I have searched the internet far and wide to justify my impatience to prune but haven't seen much on this topic.

  • 5 years ago

    yes. The plant has its own internal clock. Also, what type of light are you using? Whats the color temp and lumens?


    why not slide the plant over in front of the window?


    that grow light won’t be strong enough to help anything but just the very tips. Only lights such as HPS metal halide or high bay leds will penetrate and give enough light lower down.


    with the light you have, I’d just use it to offset the shorter winter days but would opt for light from the window as my primary source.

  • 5 years ago

    Slight disagreement; we're influencing the plant with our light sources and energy availability. It's something I do all the time, and why I have a blossoming ageratum at the windowsill along with successfully keeping younger deciduous trees up over the winter for a year or so (it's unwise to do so for longer than that with a deciduous tree). My schefflera regularly puts on fair growth in December and early January...because it's strung with lights.


    It's hard to tell how bright that light is, and the fig would certainly prefer a nice window, but time can make up for some of what you can't give it. Heavens, I raise sprouts every year under lights that see no sunlight at all until they go out in May (and those are just fluorescent).

    These days, LEDs are made in very high wattage, and it's as much what frequencies of light penetrate as the intensity (blue and red are easily and quickly absorbed; yellows and greens penetrate to deeper leaves more easily and have lower absorption, but are primarily what's available to deep-canopy leaves outside...to really shortcut the whole argument and ignore half a dozen factors).

    I tend to use a simple warm white LED for a good compromise between energy efficiency, decent spectrum, pleasant light to the human eye, and not overwhelmingly bright in my living space (although in my home office, the plant lights during winter actually are the primary lights most of the time, with the actual office lights left off).

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    A warm white led is going to be around 2700k. That’s great for flowering, but not exactly ideal for leaf growth and development.

    Cooler temps in the 5000-6500k range are what your plant would appreciate.

    I agree you can influence a plant if you have enough light to do so, but a small light hanging over a tree might not be enough. It’s likely still going by what’s happening outside.

    Leds actually are not made in high wattages when compared to any other lights. Fluorescent, incandescent, etc use far more watts than any led will. Yes, they can be made to have an amazingly high output, but their power draw is much lower than anything else. Hence why they’re so energy efficient.

  • 5 years ago

    Again, I'm going to toss a wrench into that. The red/blue light response is more whether the plant is susceptible to a length of day response. The FLF is not in this case as it won't bloom indoors anyway, and any light will happily grow leaves. Most of what I grow isn't as it's day-length neutral and doesn't care if I throw red or blue light at it. It'll blossom regardless, as the ageratum in full bloom next to me attests.

    Suffice to say that, given enough brightness*, the plant will do just fine. Or, why I tend to use simple warm white (3000K, for the most part) LEDs of relatively high wattage for all my plants. The mix in the basement is 1 warm, 1 cool. Everything does fine, leafs, and blooms.

    Interestingly, the "warm white" LED has a large spike in the deep blue, a dropping curve in cerulean, rising through green and yellow, and a wide surge in orange and red.


    https://thegreensunshineco.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Warm_vs_Cool_White-1.jpg


    For my bar lights, I add in some full-spectrum output. Problematic in a room where I paint, but.. I don't use cool white because the solar spectrum looks nothing like that, the light is unpleasant to my eye, and again, I paint in here. Actinic blue isn't going to cut it. The plants don't care.


    In this case, if Kat can move the plant onto a stand by the window and move the light (and increase the wattage), great. I think Fried will be much happier.


    * I tend to avoid technical terminology where it's not needed.

  • 5 years ago

    I would do exactly as Tapla states.


    I grow and have grown quite a few Ficus Benjamina and Alii. Both have the same cultural wants and needs as Ficus Lyrata.


    Morpheus, day length has nothing to do with whether she should use 2700-3000k or 5000-6500k. The cooler color temps are what will give the most favorable results when growing a Ficus such as this.

  • 5 years ago

    I actually didn't state anything about day length, but about flowering tendency, which is where the red/blue garden myth comes from and it's sad to see this misquoted. As to whether that misread is intentional, I'm unable to determine.

    I'm also sorry to see the fallacy that plants are locked into their "natural" cycles when we have the ability to enhance their lighting when we wish.


    "I grow and have grown quite a few Ficus Benjamina and Alii. Both have the same cultural wants and needs as Ficus Lyrata."

    Appeals to experience don't really apply when all the players on the board can claim the same thing, so this statement is nullified by everybody else's.


    I've had perfectly good results cutting back in December and in June, but then again, I do enhance light quite well, so perhaps that could be an influencing factor...just apparently not to liking in terms of spectrum. That's a pity, I'm sure, but again, I find the light blue, cold, and won't have it in my painting studio or living spaces.


    Best of luck. Kat.


  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    warm / cool colors regarding what a plant prefers is not a myth. its just your opinion.

    You do things the way you WANT to do them. That doesn’t make them right. But pushing your bad habits on others won’t help anyone.

  • 5 years ago

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267353443_Determination_of_the_Effect_of_Red_and_Blue_Ratios_of_LED_Light_on_Plant_Photosynthesis


    Just off the top (I keep tons of research around and this came to hand on a fast search of what I have on-hand). Or, why I tend a bit ruddier than suggested.


    "Tomatoes aren't..."

    I'm aware of that. It's actually not that different from other recent research, this is just what I can find on the hard drive quickly as my references are a mess right now.

  • 5 years ago

    "You do things the way you WANT to do them. That doesn’t make them right. But pushing your bad habits on others won’t help anyone."

    I'm afraid that, given the above research and others, it's pointing toward myth and more red than blue would be preferred.

    That would be logical given that sunlight is far more red than blue, simply due to blackbody radiation.


    I'll await countering scientific data but thank you, continue to think of passing this blue light myth as a very "bad habit" indeed. And one proven harmful to humans.


    https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side

  • 5 years ago

    You can’t help but respond apparently. I’m not talking about blue light and it’s affects on humans. I’m speaking for plants. This is not about your art studio or what you prefer.


    Just because you repot (pot up more than likely) in December doesn’t mean it’s good practice or good information to spread. Just because you don’t prefer blue light in your art studio doesn’t mean you should also push that misinformation.


    Respond if you feel the need. I’m done.

  • 5 years ago

    OK, it's nice that you're done but again, like Kat, we're sharing our space with our plants. So we do have to consider our brain's response to the light and the plant's. Which is not "misinformation" if you took the time to read the scientific study above.

    Alas, given the response, I'm going to assume you haven't done so yet but will later. Red light in the 5:1 dominant ratio to blue or 10:1 ratio to blue tends to do best. Not with blue dominant. I do have plenty of other studies with other types of plants that pretty much show the same and, of course, can quote the solar spectrum to no end (at Earth's surface, of course, in space it's somewhat different).


    We also weren't discussing repotting or potting up in this thread, we're discussing cutting, so I'm not entirely certain where that confusion is coming from without making some perhaps unpleasant assumptions. I'll avoid doing so for now.

    Cutting would, of course, not precisely be the best to be doing in December either, but fortunately...well, this is January, for starters. Nearly February. And of course, the plant will simply wait and send leaves at the proper time. Normally I'd say to leave the leaves, but...

    As noted, I do enhance light. A great deal. If Kat does so--following moving the plant as both of us suggested to the window, plus enhancing light with her plant light and increasing wattage--that will increase growth.

    Perfect? No. But it'll work and I've certainly done it many times, so if Kat has a reason she needs to cut things back now, she can if she has to.


    Now, as to "misinformation," no, it's simply not the way you do things. And perhaps not optimal, but entirely workable. I used my shears again yesterday. It will, as always, work out fine. One would expect misinformation to misfire. It doesn't. I can't say I appreciate the invective, but at least compared to some around here, yours is minor.


  • 5 years ago

    I must thank you all for the spirited conversation. I think I will take a few months to nurse the tree into better health so he'll be better prepared for a pruning. Perhaps I need to focus on the roots again. Very interesting re: the moisture meter--wooden stick it is then. I water 1-2L with a 3-1-2 fertilizer once every 3 weeks MAX so it seems to me despite some previous efforts, the drainage still isn't great. Only a little bit drizzles out the bottom on watering days.

    For those that asked, the light is an Aspect light from Soltech (1500 lumens, 3000K). I'm laughing because there's an oil painting in progress 5 feet away from the tree. Come June, there will be a new foe preventing me from moving closer to the window -- the dreaded Air Conditioner. Hopefully Friedrich is as stubborn as I am trying to make an urban fig thrive. ; )

  • 5 years ago

    "I'm laughing because there's an oil painting in progress 5 feet away from the tree."


    So we know each other's pain. Yes, 3,000K is about right for your vision and painting. I do acrylics, water color, and gouache, and I'm currently covered in Prussian blue gouache for some reason. I swear I only used a single drop.

    I do try to flush out my plants every now and again, watering such that water runs out the base, carrying away built-up salts from the soil. I (cough) hope that's not misinformation... :-) It's not something you need do often, and I do it in the sink or shower with room-temperature water (as I always water with anyway), just with plain water such that a volume equal to or greater than the pot's runs through. For particular plants, that might be monthly. For non-particular ones, 2 to 4 times yearly.

    Figs are moderately salt resistant and shouldn't need flushing very often.

    But other than that, there's no need to give it more than needed to fill the pot.

  • 5 years ago

    Kat, if you want the best advice when it comes to anything Ficus related, read all of Al (Taplas) threads. Morpheus might know a good deal about painting and lawn care but that seems to be about it.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Kat, I would just also echo Dave's recommendation to follow any advice provided by Al (tapla). He is a recognized authority on container gardening of any type and has been widely published. Anyone who has spent any time on the Container Gardening, Houseplants or Bonsai forums over the last 20 years would be aware of his extensive experience and incredible knowledge base, both with the techniques and the plants, as any number of his posted photos would illustrate. You really cannot go wrong following his methodology.

  • 5 years ago

    Thanks Pam & Dave - I appreciate the kind words.


    Al

  • 5 years ago

    Whenever, I see a FLF post I get this urgent need to acquire one :) Thankfully HD is out of it now.

    Kat, I looked up the light on Soltech site: Good that it is very CRI - more useful for accurate renditions of color. It goes with the decor that is a plus too. But it is very pricey for what it does and claims are exaggerated a lot. A 100W equivalent CFL produces 1600 lumens for 22W or so.

    But it is quite under powered for what the plant needs. If you keep using it you will end with a tall plant. It is probably good enough for a few leaves of that plant and it will keep dropping the lower leaves as it grows new ones. You need more of those and closer to the plant. From you picture you can see that bulk of the light is illuminating things other than the plant. Something you cannot avoid unless you enclose the plant in a reflective enclosure.

    In Summer you need to put it outside or give it lot more light if you are going to drastically prune it. Otherwise it is going to do the same thing again. Al's advice is the right advice if you want it stronger, shorter and bushier plant. I have many ficuses in my collection, mostly kept on the smaller side (~ 12 inches). Two of them are 20+ yrs old and they have been kept at about 2-3 ft high with timely pruning and pinching.

    Kat H thanked tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
  • 5 years ago

    Much to think about - thank you! (And special thank you to Al for the detailed advice - I pored over your root pruning tips on this site for weeks which gave me the confidence to do it last year!)


    What's strange about Friedrich is despite what I agree are less than stellar light conditions, his new leaves have come in stacked atop each other like pancakes. Hard to see in below photos, but I'm talking less than 1cm (closer to 1mm??) from one leaf to the next. I'm keen to try pinching, but having a hard time finding enough stem above leaf to work with.




    I have one unintentional pinching which I will keep an eye on: The leanest branch had a new leaf forming a few months back. It pushed out a little green scroll which after a week dried out and turned brown. It didn't have the protective brown sheath I usually see. I don't know why the new leaf died, but why it was apparent the leaf was done I snipped the crispy remnant as close to its base as I could. The messy result is below. I was able to get low enough to prompt a sap "ooze" which I took to mean I got to the stem. A good thing?



    As for why the leaves are so compact at the top -- Perhaps he is desperate to push out new leaves for energy since he doesn't have many? The light is about 2 feet away and on 7am-9pm so ample time to bask in it. As someone else mentioned, maybe the tips of the tree are happy due to this proximity, but I suppose it won't be so ideal lower down after a prune...

  • 5 years ago

    May be it is bambino variety of FLF - they are very compact in their habit. Keep a watch out for the next set of leaves. Often the first few leaves of new growth are smaller and tighter. Subsequent ones may be larger in size and with longer internodes. No worries with the failed pinch. A new branch will eventually appear somewhere near there. It is very likely only the tallest will keep extending because of apical dominance.

    Kat H thanked tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)