Bagged topsoil is largely a scam. Except maybe for people who really don't have ANY source of soil. The quality is highly irregular. It's from the top of someone's soil. Rocks, debris, chunks of wood. Bulk topsoil can be better, in that you can run your hand through it and see what's in it. Assuming that your own local soil isn't from a superfund site, adding organics to it will make it top-performing.

To simplify, if you have enough soil to start your veg garden, then you add various organic material such as manure, compost, peat for clay soil. A lot the first year. Add organic material each year and your soil will get better and better. The special bagged soil is a ripoff for your long term vegetable garden, and you can add your own fertilizer for less than a bunch of "specially" fertilized bags.

Yup, so I’m thinking is making my own compost pile this year and just stuff whatever decomposable vegetation in there. But don’t know if that‘ll beat cow manure in terms of effectiveness

Manure brings more nitrogen into the nutrient mix. Any general purpose ammonium or urea-based fertilizer will supply that as well. Bagged manure compost should be decent enough.

Bagged manure is very expensive. I just saw bagged manure at my local garden center at $5.99 a bag. 1 cu ft. There's 27 cu ft in a cubic yard. That makes it $162 a cu yard. For that much money I could by 4 cu yards of mushroom compost with free delivery from my bulk garden center. Or I could rent a pickup truck for $42 and get 2+ yards or a 1/2 yard or what I need of horse manure.

Google horse boarding and your town and you'll find a facility near you. I even tried it for NY City.

They're always glad to get rid of some; no charge. Get the oldest, black clumpy stuf.

Massachusetts NOFA has been running a "Resiliant Gardener" series of free classes on Tuesday nights via zoom. Then the class is put on their YouTube channel. They seem to be getting away from purchased soil amendments and using more green manures/cover crops and homemade compost. The big issue is all the microbes in the soil and the need for a lot of organic matter. I originally built my beds using the "lasagna method" but I haven't continued to add a lot of organic matter each year. In the past I have topped my beds with composted horse manure each year but due to a wet spring I didn't last spring and I think I missed the spring before, too. Too wet to get to manure piles. We usually find someone on Craigslist with free or almost free composted manure. One year I planted spinach before the spring manure topping and then planted a second batch after topping. The second batch did noticeably better. I'll make sure to top beds off with manure this year but I'm also going to try to improve my composting. When I buy bagged compost I get Coast of Maine products.

Be VERY careful about manure you get from a pile at a random farm. In many cases, that manure is contaminated with persistent herbicides. As in, herbicides are used on a crop, the animals eat the crop, and the herbicides go right through them into the manure. Many people marketing compost have stopped accepting horse manure and composted bedding until there is a reliable testing method for these herbicides. At least ask. If you get assurances from the provider that the manure is clean, you might be safe. If they don't have a clue what you're talking about, walk away.

Home made compost is the easiest, cheapest and best. There are some reputable composting facilities that will sell good bulk compost, but they are few and far between. Aged manure is good. Make sure it is aged and free of herbicides. These persistent ones are causing quite the set of problems for compost and manures. Aged manure and compost were the two amendments that did the best for my raised beds long term survival. You can tweak additional organic components depending on what you are growing in them.

"Be VERY careful"

We see this so much any time manure is mentioned. Let's not forget that we get our food from farms. Our veggies, meat, milk, cheese and butter come from these animals. The meat, milk, and manure come out of the same animals.

I have more concern with bagged products which some how escape these capitalized warnings. There are very few cases that raise these alarms. Some of them come from bagged products. My big concern with the bagged products is that there's a lot of municipal waste disposed of worldwide. There are more possible contaminants in municipal waste than in farm manure. Herbicides are dumped down sewers as are dewormers. There's a much larger potential list of medications that get dumped down the drain than are in the manures "from a pile at a random farm" It's illegal to take municipal waste to a dump. Where is it disposed of? Where is it composted? Is it tested for herbicides, dewormers, or prescription drugs.

Manure should be considered the backup compost when you run out of that you make at home. A wonderful organic soil amendment and source of needed nutrients. I use manure to grow my veggies. You should take some precautions. I don't grow root crops and leafy veggies in soil that I recently added manure to. You need to select the oldest manure when you haul off manure from a pile at that random farm.. And you can test the manure before you haul it to make sure herbicides don't keep your test beans from germinating.

Why don't we see warnings to test the milk we buy for herbicides and dewormers. We need to take precautions with every facet of life. But organic gardening need not be the biggest fear for gardeners.

Those persistent pesticides are not poisonous to animals and people. Yes, they are probably in the food you eat. But that's not the point. The point is that they can devastate a garden. It's happening.

The OMRI guidelines for compost are important, as they ensure that compost is actually made 100% from biodegradable materials, and that any manure in it has been processed to prevent contamination of food by harmful bacterial pathogens. But it really doesn't cover persistent pesticides. They're working on that, I think.

Municipal waste largely doesn't contain persistent pesticides. Our own burg markets "Dillo Dirt" which is composted biosolids, including a lot of urban manure. That's well tested for all manner of bad stuff before it is bagged.

So one of the people who bashes manure any time it comes up on this site is defending using human manure in a veggie garden. And of course no one ever dumped prescriptions or herbicides, or chemicals down a drain. And even tho folks are convicted of draining tank trucks down municipal sewers; it's safe to use.

But my purpose here is not to bash the alternative but to point out the consistent trashing of one garden amendment. You can't find a thread on this site that someone mentions manure where the same small group comes up to repeat the same thing over and over. It gets old, there's very few documented cases. Most are in bagged manure.

One would think that folks get paid to bash a free product to protect the industry. Why else would human manure be defended and animal manure repeatedly trashed. I have a compromised immune system that's suppressed with drugs. I would never use human manure or uric acid but I do healthfully use horse manure to raise veggies.

No one is trashing anything!! Using manures in the garden is fine.......provided one takes the proper precautions. Fresh manure is hazardous for a variety of reasons - excessive urea in fresh manure can easily burn plants, especially young seedlings. There may also be various pathogens present in fresh manure that can be transmitted to humans - Salmonella spp., Campylobacter spp., Listeria monocytogenes, Yersinia enterocolitica, Escherichia coli and protozoa viz. All of these can infect humans with various harmful, even fatal results. If you are applying manures to anything edible - like a veggie garden - it is recommended that they be aged 6 months at the very least or composted. Leaching and ground water pollution is also a concern especially with phosphorus, which tends to be present in high levels in many manures.

Biosolids - recycled human waste - is very highly regulated and goes through extensive processing before it is released for sale. Far more than any animal manure is. Pound for pound, it is likely a far better investment for your garden than is any animal manure! I'm not sure why anyone would have qualms about using it if they routinely apply animal manures - it's a heck of a lot "cleaner" and safer!!

And the issues with persistent pesticides only exist with manures or composts that have allowed inclusion of contaminated livestock fodder/bedding or untreated livestock waste. These products are not allowed for use by homeowners but still have a strong agricultural presence.

Please chill. I'm not bashing manure. I'm just telling people to take necessary precautions with it.

Boy, if you think there are few documented cases of garden damage from persistent herbicides, you need to do a little research.

https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/pest-control/herbicide-damage-zmgz13fmzsto

You have a good point about protecting your immunocompromised body. I'm talking about protecting plants. Two different things. And yes, with regard to protecting plants, there is somewhat more to worry about with barnyard manure than with properly processed human manure.

I'm talking about the plants also, that's what we eat. I'm not going to argue for 50 posts as is usual. You stick to your "urban manure". I'll stay with my rural manure. I once had a cow and a bull who had a calf. And 2 pigs, well hogs. They never saw a vet, never were drugged. No herbicides, no cides at all. You're lumping every "random farm" in the same category. Don't investigate the random farm, don't check out the manure or test it.

Manure is wonderful stuff, but the persistent herbicide issue on crops was real, and still occurs occasionally though it’s less of a problem now. It’s not manure bashing to suggest that people are very careful when sourcing muck. It’s simply common sense. https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=477

"I once had a cow and a bull who had a calf. And 2 pigs, well hogs. They never saw a vet, never were drugged. No herbicides, no cides at all."

I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of beans :-) Most of the folks active here and asking questions are not farmers or raise livestock. They are obtaining manure - if that's what they want - from commercial suppliers. So they have no control over what may impact either the livestock creating that manure or the bedding, hay/straw or potentially contaminated fodder that livestock may have consumed and that is included with the manure. We are just encouraging caution when obtaining or using.

btw, I'm not sure that "never saw a vet, never were drugged" is much of an endorsement to your animal husbandry. Any sort of livestock will need veterinary attention from time to time, as well as vitamins, supplements, salt licks, dewormers and frequently, antibiotics. I'd hate to think your animals were not given the best care you could provide for them.

Floral I would agree with you about it's not manure bashing unless in the same post you defend human manure and bash animal manure. The digestive system is different for meat eating and non meat eating animals. There are different bacteria in their digestive system. The reason I'd rather use manure from cattle or horses.

GardenGal - If you read the whole statement it may make more sense:

"I once had a cow and a bull who had a calf. And 2 pigs, well hogs. They never saw a vet, never were drugged. No herbicides, no cides at all." You're lumping every "random farm" in the same category.

As far as the vet issue I was in suburbia about 2 miles from the local mall I didn't want to have a pet vet see my animals and didn't want to pay a knowledgeable vet the travel time to see my patients. The pigs never tasted any meat product. When I made sausage I had to alter the spices and then when I bought store pork I had to go back to the original recipe. When I slaughtered the cattle the butcher warned me that these Holsteins were only hamburg. When he saw the ribs he said "This is USDA grade A choice beef."

For the best results, know your products and techniques. Caveat emptor is all anyone is saying. As newbie, you might have to invest more on the front end, but as time goes on you will source out the best products and techniques and know what vendors are best for you. So in the meantime, one has to discuss and fact find. And still you can go "no brainer" at the local mart and probably do OK, but it will cost you. What's discussed here is finessing and perhaps saving some money by finding the best bang for your buck . . .

Here's a quote from Gardengal above:

"Biosolids - recycled human waste - is very highly regulated and goes through extensive processing before it is released for sale. Far more than any animal manure is."

And here's a discussion about the "Extensive processing from Water and Wastes Digest:

"A technological schematic of raw wastewater residual composting
process is shown in Figure 1. Once the quick lime and residual are thoroughly
mixed, the bulking agent and a portion of recycled compost are added and mixed.
This mixture then is formed into piles and allowed to compost until a
temperature of 55 to 65° C has been maintained for 3 to 11 days."

So 3 to 11 days of processing plus a few days to get the quick lime/human waste mixture mixed and up to temperature is known apparently as "extensive processing". They also add recycled compost which many times is wood chips. I also found out why so many bagged soil amendments have so much water in the bags. There is a lot of discussion in the above article on getting the excess water out of the mixture. In fact one might conclude that there's more concern with removing water than with "extensive processing"

The manure pile I've been working for two years has had no manure added to it during those two years. There's no reason for any individual wishing to use manure to also find a similar source of Aged and Well Composted horse manure. Take your pick 2 weeks for human manure or possibly most of a year or more for animal manure.

John, it seems to be quite impossible to have a rational discussion with you as you apparently like to pick and choose your facts and slam or summarily dismiss anything that veers from your preconceived notions.

It is not the time involved but the actual processing and regulatory oversight that occurs with biosolids.......NONE of which is involved with any type of animal manures! Would I feel safer for my family/myself and for my garden if using biosolids compared to animal manures, either fresh aged or fully composted? You bet! No chance of excess heavy metals, concerning pathogens, persistent pesticide contamination and no weeds. Can't say the same for manures because they are simply not tested or regulated to any significant standards.

EPA Basic Information About Biosolids

If you feel that human schit composted for 11 days is safe for your family then you may be abusing your family. I have many times posted on this site that I don't grow root crops or leafy veggies such as lettuce or spinach in soil unless I applied the horse manure the previous year. But you are recommending this schit without reservation.

I saw no mention of testing in the above linked article for anything except for the temperature of the compost. Anything dumped down the drain or a manhole in some street is in this compost. Prescriptions, chemicals, herbicides, insecticides, antifreeze, oils, on and on, you name it.

Do you give veggies to your neighbors? Do you tell them you grow it in 2 week old human schit?

The criticism we hear so much about animal manure is that it may contain herbicides and dewormers. I went to Penn State University and found that they assist municipalities in testing their municipal waste, sludge. I found that they don't test for herbicides or any medical drugs of any kind. Here's the link to their testing.

They test for:

"Samples are analyzed for percent solids, total nitrogen, organic nitrogen, ammonium nitrogen, arsenic, cadmium, copper, lead, mercury, molybdenum, nickel, selenium, zinc, and PCBs to satisfy requirements of the Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) Chapter 271 Sewage Sludge Quality Test. Results are also reported for volatile solids, pH, aluminum, calcium, chromium, iron, magnesium, manganese, phosphorus, potassium and sodium."

There are also individual tests for the following:

PCBs, Cyanide, Mercury, Arsenic, Selenium, Total Carbon, Combustion, Nitrogen (NO3-N) Chromatography, and Calcium Carbonate Equivalence (CCE)