Cross contamination of foods? Recirculation of germs? What? Are there case studies you can point to that illustrate these concerns as valid?

IMO the ONLY thing relevant in weighing the pros and cons of an entirely open concept vs. traditional concept kitchen is personal preference, specifically in regards to how you like to cook, how you like to live, how you like to entertain, and how you like to use your kitchen. These conversations have been had multiple times on this board, and the answers are as unique as the people responding.

If you have an open concept, really good external overhead venting over the range is a must. You're right about odors, they are more likely to spread throughout the home, or at least more quickly.

"But they are prone to cross contamination of food and recirculation of germs." ???

In what way? I have to say I have never heard that before.

Usually the push back I get for open floor plans is how the sound travels or if you have formal living spaces, you can see the pile of dirty pots in the sink when entertaining or the fact that you have to wind up with the same paint color on the walls for multiple areas.

There are varying degrees of open. You have to find what works best for you .

It sounds like you prefer a somewhat open/somewhat closed Kitchen...which, btw, I do as well! I don't like either extreme -- completely open with no separation of rooms and completely enclosed with no real connection to other public rooms.

Are you planning a Kitchen remodel or building? Or, is this a rhetorical question?

It also depends on the size of the space. A very small kitchen might benefit from opening it up to adjacent rooms, while a large kitchen would be better separated. I have a 13' x 20' kitchen with a 7' x 7' space for a small bistro table. It's plenty large and open/airy without being completely open to the dining room and family room. In my vacation home the kitchen is rather small, but it's open to the dining area and living room. So if you want advice for your particular space, post the plans and you'll get lots of responses!

@User, is it odd that she listed as one of her projects some plans she drew up during a discussion here? I, um, don't think I have seen any of the pros do that here. Like ever. It strikes me as very off.

Hello Everyone, Thanks for taking the time to read my query.

@Buehl It was rhetorical question and I think a lot like you do.

@Shannon_WI I am one and the same person and sometimes I'm not paying attention to how I'm responding, it is completely unintentional. I joined Houzz less than a month ago and am still learning to navigate the website.

@Celadon This is not a project, I posted it as a query on what people prefer and why. What drives their preferences.

Contamination and cross contamination in food are being researched by appliance manufacturers and they are constantly coming up with improved models. We are advised on storage and preparation recommendations through food labels. I use two cutting boards, one for non-vegetarian food and the other for fruits and vegetables. I have a third cutting board especially for pizzas and other cooked foods.

My initial education is in Hotel Management Catering and Nutrition where we learned culinary arts, housekeeping and nutrition. I also have a Bachelor of Science in Botany and 34 years of experience in Interior Design, Architecture, Construction Administration and Kitchen and Bath Design collectively. This is my resume and I am not wacko by any means.

Over the years residential kitchens have evolved. They were a separate part of the house away from the main entrances of the house, closer to kitchen gardens. The storage, cooking, dining and cleaning areas were separate. For example, the Biltmore Estate in Asheville, NC and Monticello are just two examples of the many that I have visited. Both these places also have wineries. I am not saying that we should design spaces as large as that, but be aware of the concept. The aim then and in the past, was to avoid contamination and cross contamination which is prone to occur in breadmaking processes and dairy products, when raw meat is stored in the same place as cooked food, etc. Or when outside airbourn germs flow freely through the kitchens and settle on surfaces, or when steam and airbourn oils settle on furniture and coffee tables just the same way they do on top of hoods.

Today we have opened up our kitchens directly to traffic straight from the front door or the garage door where cell phones, mail, clothes, book bags and even shoes end up on the kitchen counters. One sink is being used for prep, cook and clean. I could go on.

I am unaware of what other designers consider a priority when they design kitchens for their clients. To me it seems that the priority is open concept or closed kitchens and less attention to other factors. There are many studies being conducted for healthy eating habits, organic foods, germs, longivity of fruits and vegetables, nutrition, fermentation and pickling processes, gardening, gourmet cuisine, ethnic food preparation, and now studies are also being conducted to keep bacteria and viruses out of the ktichens and in homes as a result of the pandemic.

Whether it's an open concept or closed concept the issues remain the same. I would like to know how are you gong to design kitchens and at the same time keep harmful bacteria, mold and viruses out of the kitchens when more and more people are still gravitating towards open concept kitchens. How long are we going to rely upon preservatives and pesticides to keep us protected from illness when we are allowing free passage of airborn germs to flow free through the kitchens.

Closed small kitchens, where there is negligible counterspace is also difficult to keep clean when it's packed with things. This is the responsibility of architects, to coordinate with kitchen designers before they send off a plan for permitting.

Here's one study result...........

https://www.healthline.com/health/germy-places

If there have been discussions on this topic of open or closed kitchens, I haven't yet explored them. In my discussions on Houzz I see more emphasis being placed on isle widths and work triangles. Kitchen designs is not limited to NKBA guidelines, drawing lines, placing cabinets, it's a whole lot more than that.

Thanks to all for you comments and I hope that I have clarified what is really bothering me. It's all an effort to improve the way kitchen are being designed now and an awareness of where our future is headed.

Thank you Mavvery for your detailed and considered response to some quite rude comments. You clearly are very educated and experienced, and have brought up aspects of kitchen design that no one has broached before. I like your "thinking out of the box" approach!

@User @MAV Design Concepts LLC The Healthline article doesn't support your argument about cross-contamination, and Healthline blurbs are not in any way peer-reviewed (a requirement to verify facts). The kind of contamination they refer to can proliferate in a closed kitchen as well as open concept. The key for any area where food (or anything else these days!) is handled is to be careful with cleanliness.

Age-old design concepts like those at Monticello are not applicable here. In those days, they didn't even really understand about disinfecting and sterilizing process (even boiling water would have helped), there was no refrigeration, they had issues with contaminated water, they didn't know not to carve the pheasant on a wood platter......

As recently as the 1960's, my boarding school had wood sinks in the kitchen for washing dishes. How we've evolved since then! (Incidentally, they had to be removed when 1/3 of the school got diarrhea).

So, your question, even if only rhetorical, is moot. It's not founded in current reality.

The only avenue for cross-contamination into the living room is if your toddler takes his ketchup-ed hamburger and drops pieces on the couch. And eats them again later.

To mitigate viral particles, use MERV 13 filters in your air exchanger, and follow CDC guidelines. Simple as that.

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I wish to make clear that my comments do not in any way refer to religious observances (e.g. Halal and Kosher), but simply to "germs".

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I agree with @User 100% The mode of thinking behind the OP question is very fringe, no matter the rhetorical nature or "clarification" (which actually made it more fringe IMO). Very problematic coming from any kind of home design "professional".

*******

Let's be clear @MAV Design Concepts LLC is identical with the OP @User. One account needs to be deleted IMO.

@Diana Bier Interiors, LLC Thank you I appreciate your support. A lot rides on our shoulders. I hope to warm some hearts along the way.

Bacteria and viruses are always going to be there regardless if your kitchen is closed or open concept. Coming in from a garage into a kitchen is nothing new. In my childhood home built in the 60s you came in from the garage right into the kitchen. Im still alive to tell about it. The bacteria and viruses didn't kill me. You are not going to keep bacteria and viruses out of homes.

“ free passage of airborn germs to flow free through the kitchens”: This makes no sense to me. If airborne germs are in your house you are exposed to them whether you are in the kitchen or not.

I personally love open-concept kitchens. my husband and I are in the middle of building our first home, and I wouldnt settle for any home plan that was even partially closed concept. I want the kitchen to be completely open, airy, and light. Thats just my personal preference though. I know many people who like closed concept kitchens, and I've even heard they may be coming back into style. I think it is all up to you. Weigh the pros and cons, and do what you think you'll still enjoy 20-30 years down the line

@tangerinedoor

"Whether it's an open concept or closed concept the issues remain the same." I mention this in my clarification.

CDC has articles on Food, Air and Water borne illnesses. My intention here is not to scare people, but be mindful of the basics of hygiene while designing kitchens. For your reading, below are links,

Foodborne illnesses

https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/cdc-and-food-safety.html#:~:text=Foodborne%20illness%20is%20a%20common,than%20%2415.6%20billion%20each%20year.

Indoor Air Pollutants and Toxic Materials

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/publications/books/housing/cha05.htm

Especially read the 'formaldehyde' part of this article. The MDF board in painted white shaker cabinets, that everyone wants in their kitchens, has traces of formaldehyde.

You can look up "preventing water borne germs at home" on the CDC website.

I think there are pros and cons to open concept. Our beach house has an open concept layout which is wonderful for keeping everyone involved but for me it gets tiring to listen to the TV (others watching) while I'm working in the kitchen. The house and the kitchen are large. Conversely, if I'm watching TV, the noise from people working in the kitchen interferes with my ability to hear the TV. But when we're all cooking and hanging out together, it's great.

The smaller kitchen in our former home really benefited from opening it up to the dining room (no family room or TV nearby). Our new home has the kitchen fully open to the family room but not the dining room or living room. It's just the two of us now and I anticipate it will be the best of both worlds.

I guess this is a long winded way of saying it all depends. :)

@MAV Design Concepts LLC

Indoor Air Pollutants and Toxic Materials

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/publications/books/housing/cha05.htm

Especially read the 'formaldehyde' part of this article. The MDF board in painted white shaker cabinets, that everyone wants in their kitchens, has traces of formaldehyde.

I followed your advice to read and found your information misleading. As the CDC references in this article in the "formaldehyde chapter", formaldehyde is ubiquitous in traditional building materials and other items we bring into the home. There are "sustainable" substitutes and procedures we can use to mitigate impact.

This is why the very same CDC article cites the following from the CPSC:

• Purchase pressed wood products that are labeled or stamped to be in conformance with American National Standards Institute criteria ANSI A208.1-1993. Use particleboard flooring marked with ANSI grades PBU, D2, or D3. Medium-density fiberboard should be in conformance with ANSI A208.2-1994 and hardwood plywood with ANSI/HPVA HP-1-1994 (Figure 5.4).
• Purchase furniture or cabinets that contain a high percentage of panel surface and edges that are laminated or coated. Unlaminated or uncoated (raw) panels of pressed wood panel products will generally emit more formaldehyde than those that are laminated or coated.
• Use alternative products, such as wood panel products not made with UF glues, lumber, or metal.
• Avoid the use of foamed-in-place insulation containing formaldehyde, especially UF foam insulation.
• Wash durable-press fabrics before use.

Furthermore, the air exchanger (e.g. CERV) in modern homes monitors and clears VOCs.

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Preventing water-borne germs in the home, which you also point to, has no relevance to closed or open kitchens, and the CDC has no reference to design choices like those. An equally important area to prevent water-borne germs is bathrooms, and hand-washing.

Anyone know how to block posts/select users? Asking for a friend...

@tangerinedoor

You haven't answered my question.

"What are the pros and cons people are experiencing between the open concept or closed kitchens? What do you prefer and why?"

Let's stay on track, shall we?

Remember that we are in a pandemic, what is your answer?

On Formaldehyde, read Warranties of cabinet manufacturers on painted cabinets. Then read about MDF boards and what is the minimum ppm allowed in CA. What guidelines do manufacturers in States other than CA must follow to report the level of formaldehyde in MDF in their products. If you want to avoid formaldehyde in your home then follow the CDC recommended alternatives. I'm not misleading anyone, don't know where you got that idea.

I don't see how closed vs open kitchens has anything at all to do with pandemic issues. You're more likely to get Covid from the person you meet in the supermarket than from your carrots.

@hemina, you click on "click to switch off email notifications about new comments" at the bottom of the discussion.

My kitchen is semi closed. Half wall open to the informal dining room that opens to the living room. Full doorway/full wall open to the living room. DS's apartment has a full open concept kitchen/living room. Growing up we moved around quite a bit and some of those kitchens were closed off. I know I do not want an actual door on a kitchen. Coming and going with food/dishes not knowing if you are going to slam someone on the other side..all situations to be avoided IMHO. When DS cooks and we are visiting it is nice he can prep and we are eye to eye in comfortable seating vs the stools near a breakfast bar. HIs high counter keeps the sight lines off the mess so that seems to work even though my gut would say the mess of cooking/dishes is not something I would choose to have on display. More than anything acoustics and noise levels in a home are most important to me. Open concept leaves one open to the clutter of sounds coming from situations you are not a part of. If find this invasive and irritating. The germ issue: I am in the camp of this is an new idea. Reminds me of the gross information from a few years back about bathrooms...I have lived in homes do now actually where our most used door comes in from a garage. 21 years and well so far I would say that FEAR is just that fear mongering. No basis in reality FOR US. Here's the thing, germs are REAL. If you avoid them ALL you open yourself up to being taken out by the common cold. Our immunity grows through the introduction to germs. Back in the day the mud room was the barrier between outside filth and some kitchens. When I think about it, part of this discussion needs to be placement of a kitchen. Centered in a home or on an outside wall. If they are on an outside wall they tend to have a door taking one to outside spaces. This door takes up counter/cupboard space and I guess invites a new array of germs/dirt....

There is a poll here somewhere on preference to open/closes concept. The OP may want to check that information out.

@arcy_gw Thanks for your response. My last house had a semi closed kitchen and I loved it. The kitchen was away from the main entrance, it had a sliding door to one of the side decks, a wide 36" door between the great room and kitchen with a 180 degree swing and an opening for a separate dining room. The dining room had another sliding door and another door that could also be closed off from the rest of the house. I left both interior doors open all the time, I could completly close off the kitchen and dining section of the house. When I had guests we were mostly in the greatroom and back deck. Hardly ever in the kitchen so it was easy for me to stay organized and no one saw my mess in the kitchen sink. I had an island and a raised service bar.
The side deck off the kitchen was another place to entertain for smaller number of guests.

With germs...there are some common viruses and bacteria that don't have adverse affects and we cannot avoid them, we have developed immunity for them. There are also good bacteria and yeast in our foods like yoghurt, legumes and lentils, breads to name some. By using bleach in the kitchen we are also killing the good microorganisms that help in fermentation and digestion.

A few years after I completed Hotel Management, we made beer and wine in our house. We had 12 varieties of wine and 240 bottles maturing in our basement. Our kitchen was like a chemistry lab.

However, there are other more serious germs that is the issue here. We cannot create completely germ free environments but we can implement preventative measures to avoid getting seriously sick. When the good microorganisms mingle with the bad micororganisms the quality of food diminishes. Where you may think that you can use certain foods that might be safe, are really not.

I like your suggestion of placing the kitchen away from the direct path of the main traffic in the house may it be an exterior wall or somewhere else.

I will check out the poll.

I would certainly want the Working area of my kitchen to not be a traffic lane, and I like that in our house, it is its own room. It’s not isolated, though. And I don’t think I want a kitchen on an interior space, I want it on the perimeter. Frankly, I want all the rooms on the perimeter for natural light and ventilation.

I don’t entertain in such a way that my guests are gathering in the kitchen while we cook.

I‘m still not sure what the cross-contamination of food issue is. Food is in the kitchen, so it will, well, is there a neutral word for contaminate? Or, do you mean that elements outside the kitchen contaminate it? Of course, it originated outside the kitchen, whether on a farm or through a processing plant, it came through all kinds of shipping, and finally from a market of some kind, it’s all been handled so many times. so I’m not sure what an open kitchen has that could exacerbate all that.

In the end, though, I like a separate kitchen with a small sitting area or breakfast nook. I’m not one to eat meals at an island, either, except a quick bite. I really don’t want to look at the kitchen cooking and cleaning area while I’m eating. Do people completely clean up before they eat? I’m a clean-as-I-go cook, but at the very end there’s still the cooking vessel and serving utensil.

Can you please explain what you are talking about with this?

"However, there are other more serious germs that is the issue here. We cannot create completely germ free environments but we can implement preventative measures to avoid getting seriously sick. When the good microorganisms mingle with the bad micororganisms the quality of food diminishes. Where you may think that you can use certain foods that might be safe, are really not."

What preventative measures other than what most people do whether their kitchen is open or closed?

"When the good microorganisms mingle with the bad micororganisms the quality of food diminishes." Please explain.

"Where you may think that you can use certain foods that might be safe, are really not." What?

I'm going to ask this in all seriousness. Are you a germophobe? Nothing you have said about germs, bacteria and viruses makes any sense.

As far as open or closed kitchens there is no right or wrong. It a personal preference. I prefer open because of how we live and interact with family and guests.

@bpath

I am so pleased to read what you have written. My childhood home had rooms along the perimeter of the house and in the middle was a huge courtyard. The kitchen was tucked in a corner, had a window and only the cook could stand in it with one more helper. Every room in the house had sunlight either through the courtyard, windows or doors. My grandmother was very strict about cleanliness, and I learned early on how food gets contaminated because she had her rules and we had to follow them. I am not germophobic, just following what I learned from her and my mother growing up, and a whole lot more than that in college.

Cross contamination of food in your kitchen occurs when you touch raw meats and then cut cucumber, tomatoes etc for salads on the same cutting board or without washing your hands properly OR are using the same apron or towel to wipe your hands over and over again. This is just one example, that is why it is important to keep them separate in the fridge and on cooking surfaces. Even when you're sniffling and sneezing if you have a bacterial infection, or just on your hands. Another source of contamination is the presence of pets in the homes.

You are right about contamination that occurs outside the house. But we bring all that in and contaminate our work surfaces by putting the plastic bags on the counters and unpacking them where we cook.

My groceries end up on the dining table then unpacked and put away. Some veggies go in salt water, before they go in the fridge. Meats are cut, marinated, portioned and repacked in freezer bags. If I can manage to throw away as much packaging material as possible I do that. I have separate sections in the refrigerator and freezer for meats and vegetables.

I clean up too as I go along so the kitchen is presentable all the time and manage to clean up completely before meals. Sometimes large pots soak in the sink and I clean them up after eating. My son comes home late, sometimes after I have gone to sleep, so I clean first thing in the morning while my coffee is brewing.

Cleaning up the kitchen at night will keep ants, cockroaches away and keep your own pets from climbing on the counters looking for food. Sometimes you will find mice droppings if they have access into your home.

So thanks, I enjoyed reading your views.

Does SPAM have a lot of germs? Because this sounds like a self promotion and not an appropriate discussion.

Agreed @Mark Bischak, Architect This is not a "design dilemma" by any stretch of the imagination

The OP purported to have a question about the relative chances of cross-contamination out of a closed kitchen vs an open-concept kitchen.

This now sounds like a piece of someone's blog (were it written in the 1950's) about how the OP cleans up her kitchen several times a day, whys and wherefores.

Made with germs: cheese, yogurt, kefir. The benefits come from the "germs".

Must be a troll.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of the original premise - that open concept kitchens are more prone to contamination than closed ones. I have an open kitchen, and don't find it any harder to have separate cutting boards and wash my hands regularly than in a closed one.

@tangerinedoor @Mark Bischak, Architect

You are most welcome not to participate. There are other discussions where your comments maybe useful.

I have never blogged. I am not a troll or SPAM or self promoting. This is my design dilemma. I have a very simple question and people who are serious are welcome to share their views and are sharing their views.

You had made comments, so I politely addressed them. If people have questions, I will reply when I have time.

People should have the freedom to comment here without being intimidated by others.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK531468/

Each of us is capable of browsing the web. Here is what National Institute of Health has to say. Find something to share and I will read it too.

Hmm. That NIH link doesn't contribute to the topic.

The issues with bacteria is cooking is quite different in a personal home vs a professional kitchen. I should know, my wife is culinary trained and I am a MD. She has lots of things that she does based on her training that I find complete overkill.

Airborne illnesses (NIH reference) has nothing to do with kitchen design or cooking/cleaning techniques.

Every post on a social media platform has the potential to misinform and be misleading. Understandably, people will respond rather harshly when they feel that is happening.

I prefer open, our last was semi-closed and that was nice too. Cooking is social, social happens in the kitchen so closed doesn't make much sense in 2021.

I am not a fan of anyone in the kitchen with me unless they sit at the table and stay out of my way.

I am an empty nester and just the thought of open concept and hubby's TV choices makes me cringe. He is in his closed off den and I am in my closed off kitchen and I like it just fine.

As for the health and safety, I never thought of any of those concerns. I just keep a clean kitchen and house, follow general food safety guidelines, and wash my hands and surfaces as I go.

I like semi-open. I have walls on three sides, and the open side goes to the dining area. (I only have ONE eating area indoors.) This gives me more cabinet flexibility, and I use all that cabinet space, as I love to cook. The other benefit is that the living room has a good wall for hanging artwork. Which would otherwise open into the kitchen.

I live alone (although I do like to entertain, if this is ever possible again)... but I still prefer semi open / semi closed over totally open. Any day.

I have had open, semi open and closed kitchens and like them all. It depends on the house and stage of family life. The thing I like best about my current open concept is being able to be part of the action while I cook. The only thing I dislike is when I am watching tv and my husband decides to run the water in the sink for several minutes. It is noisy. I don't have small children though. Given the choice between being stuck in the kitchen by myself and being bothered by sink noise I would pick open concept for this stage of life but if I still had small children I would pick closed or semi open simply to keep little bodies out of the way while I handle hot food. Edited to add: with open concept I do have to be diligent remembering to run the vent over the range otherwise the house smells like last night's dinner.

When my mom and dad built their retirement home, they had an open concept living area. My dad went on about how great it was my mom could see the TV from the kitchen. My mom went on about how much she hated sports.......................

@User I applaud your steadfastness in the face of the repeated, petty, arrogant, argumentative comments posted here. People ignore the questions we ask and take the opportunity to put others down, that's all it amounts to.

Regarding your question about the general issue of food safety, surface/air contamination, and how an open v. closed kitchen concept relates to that, I would offer the following perspective (I am a physician, practicing for 32 years now...)

Science and clinical studies are very useful for some things, but there are many questions for which science and a quantitative approach are not really needed. Regarding cleanliness, there are huge subjective components to this...everyone has a different idea of what clean means, and has a different level of comfort. It isn't really important if some clinical study measures bacterial levels as "safe" if you aren't comfortable in that environment.

My feeling as a physician is that worries about food safety, bacterial and viral illnesses, and so forth are in general a bit over-emphasized today. I think we are healthier when we are exposed to more pathogens, not shielded from them. Our immune systems "like" the challenge of defending us, and they get better, to a point, the more they are challenged.

Regarding the specific question of design, my feeling would be that a closed kitchen design would, most likely, be a potentially cleaner environment for reasons you mention: less cross traffic, less chance of people dropping dirty shoes or handbags or whatever in the kitchen while passing to other locations. Ventilation could be inferior in a closed design, but this is easy to mitigate.

Now, whether the "dirtier" open design has any clinically significant or important effects on the real world life we live in our open kitchen, I don't know. I think people should design spaces in a way that makes them feel happy and joyful. When choosing between whether to follow joy or shield against fear, I always try to follow joy.

Ok, I'm finished philosophizing for the day.

And regarding the general question of open v. closed, I prefer open. But that's all I've ever known. Every home I've ever lived in save a childhood home I was in for about 8 years was an open design, at least connected to a family room of some sort, and usually with a door leading to a garage. Since so much time is spent in a kitchen, I can't imagine not being connected visually to the main living area of the house. That said, you never know until you try it. When I am at work, I do much better when it becomes quiet and when I close my office door. I imagine I might find the cooking experience better and more peaceful in a closed kitchen, if I ever had the chance to try one.

We are looking to build (and downsize), and I am having a hard time finding a plan with a semi-closed kitchen. I mean the plans are almost all open concept. Kitchens are open to great rooms; sometimes the island would be right behind a sofa! And dining areas are off to the side! What?! Not for me. Our current house has the kitchen open to a large breakfast area (which we use for dining the majority of the time) and then to the family room - shotgun style. It has worked, but I haven’t been crazy about it. I really want a kitchen to partially open to a dining room, and not be visible to the great room.

@bdno, What about using an architect and having a plan drawn for your wants and needs as opposed to trying to fit a square peg in a round hole?

Update: @millworkman, Thanks for your comment. Tried it. Getting an architect to draw a plan meant finding a custom builder to build it. The added cost of both was not in our budget. Luckily I found a local mass builder willing to alter a standard plan of theirs to create a semi-closed kitchen. Yay! They also changed the door to the master bedroom closet so it opens into the bedroom and not the bathroom (another pet peeve of mine). Yay again! And that open all sides so-called dining room off the foyer now has a wall along the foyer and is a flex room with French doors for a dining or office space. And I got a hearth room and covered patio too! The builder asked if he could use this modified plan in his collection. My husband didn’t think a standard builder would do this but they did. Never hurts to ask (push).