Gladly.

Elltwo. Thanks for starting this whole conversation, and sharing your experience.

I'm back.

Our building & city requires conduit.

We have these spools of wire left over. (photo)

Romex can be run through conduit, but the electrician we had used these red, white, and blue wires.

I wonder why no black and green? Isn't that "standard" for hot & neutral?

Wonder why the electrician chose these colors?

In any case, isn't romex better?

It seems to me, if you have to run conduit, the romex is the way to go, and these wires are out dated.

Still, Home Depot has a lot of this wiring for sale.

Is it simply cost?

Thanks.

If youre running wire through pipe, yes, THHN, the indivual 12 awg wires you see here, are what you want to use. romex shouldnt be run theough conduit as thatll change the temp ratings.

the electricianIan could be using both the red and blue for hots in multiple circuits. has he run the wire yet? can you verify there is no ground? if he hasnt, maybe he dropped off that wire and will bring green 12 awg when he shows up to pull the wires.

black, red and blue can all be used for hots in 120v. 480v (which you dont have) is brown, orange, yellow. white is always neutrl and green is always ground.

The thing is... I had some wiring done in the bath that in light of my new knowledge, I'd like to have checked. Lkease, give me a few days and I'll open up the switches and photograph what's inside. Thanks.

I hope your electrician is not planning to use the conduit itself as the ground. Although that was common practice in the past, it is not allowed now.

One thing I noticed is the bathroom is run on a 15 amp circut (looked at breaker box), and you said the wiring in the photo was 12 aws.

The more the better, yes? Is 12 aws overkill for a 15 amp circut?

Just to say... I'm not trying to supplant an electrician, do the work myself, or hover over anyone working the job.

It's just, we recently had a narrow escape regarding a contractor's poor workmanship, and the renovation process revealed we are not alone in that regard, with others suffering a much worse fate.

So, I'm determined to put in the extra time, whatever it takes, to have some understanding of all the work being done.

Dave, your generosity is helping to make that project much easier. Big thanks.

The bath is finished. Later, I'll open up a switch and show you what's inside.

There were two contractors, not licensed electricians, that worked the bathroom electrical.

With Covid & poor workmanship - mostly Covid, because the contractor was gone two days after the demo - it took 7 months, after demo, to finish the bath.

A great story actually, involving gluing without drywall screws, or using drywall screws into cement board, and a "trampoline" designed shower base lining, without any framing.

When we finally found someone to finish the bath, there was so much to fix, and in my ignorance, dispite the crappy, basically not knowing what they were doing remodeling work, the previous electrical work went unchecked.

You see, we're in a huge city, and with the challenges of getting into the union, it's not unusual to find super qualified, unlicensed electricians & plumbers. But, on the other hand, smooth talking contractors are a dime a dozen, so buyer beware.

Live and learn. We'll bring in a licensed electrician, and we expect the work to go smoothly.

Now, with my newfound search for knowledge (mostly, just to save our ass, because I'd rather write a check and go have a beer) we have to get ready for the kitchen project with a dropped ceiling/recessed lightning, L shaped island/outlets under cabinet lighting, wiring to a living room sofit, and additional wall outlets.

Steep learning curve, but with the help of this thread, we can see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks.

Is your city by any chance Chicago? BTW, no problem using 12Ga wire for 15 amps, except that it's a little harder to work with.

While 14 awg is the recommended for a 15a circuit, theres nothing wrong with up sizing to 12 awg. however, its good practice to match everything up, unless youre doing it for voltage drop reasons.

as long as the electrician is installing 15a outlets and not 20a its fine.

also, all of the wiring on that circuit should be the same. there shouldnt be any juction boxes fed from the panel with 14/2 and then having 12/2 feeding a light or anything similar.

i would trust an apprentice or an unlisensed person who actually works for an electrical contractor over someone who just does a bit of everything. that person will not be up to code and will not know all of the parts and peices need to instal things correctly.

Back to Google, and HD.

Now, there's 15 and 20 amp outlets!?

It's never ending :)

Is there a way to tell without taking them out of the wall?

Luckily, since we WILL NOT be hiring a "bit of everything" person, the "real" electrician will have all that covered. But, good to know.

Thankfully, I'm not home, otherwise, I'd be tearing apart the boxes now. Ha ha.

One thing is interesting.

Shopping.

We always do the contractor's clean up, give 'em lunch, and offer to do the shopping (a lot of good it did us on the last job)

While clean up has always been welcome, the shopping offer has had mixed results.

Some people hate the time it takes to pick up supplies, especially here with Chicago traffic.

Others justifiably are worried the clients will pick up the wrong stuff, which messes with the schedule.

Contractors also get discounts, and some supply stores serve only businesses.

Anyway, we always thought we were doing them a favor. All in this together type thing.

Guess, in the end, like everthing else, it depends on the person.

If you don't mind.
What do these photos tell you about the workmanship? Thanks.

Im not going tk alarm you. i dont believe you have a fire hazzard, but i believe you have people who arent electricians working there. the color of the wires and the fact they used tape on wire nuts. you really one see taped wire nuts by someone who doesnt underatand things fully.

Go it. 15 vs 20 amp outlets.
T shape prong.
Whew!
Thanks.

Dave. That's what I figured.

This tape was connected to a light that was eventually removed.

Not to say they didn't use tape somewhere else.

I'll check the box.

So, there is a ground wire, but the colors are all nessed up?

Thanks.

This light was removed

I honestly wouldnt go through the house and take everything apart unless youre having issues. still, if youre worried, id get a lisenced electrician to come and check things for you.

its hard to tell with the last pic as its too close

Thanks.
Will do when the electrician comes for the kitchen.
Part of me doesn't want to know. Or, risk the huge repair work. We put tile up on the bathroom ceiling.
It's been two years since the electrical has been installed. Thanks.

Still... regarding the original post. If anyone is reading this thread. I'd sure like to see a photo of a switch installed on a stud end (not photoshopped :)
Thanks again, all of you.

Can you mock uo a drawing of exactly how you want to mount the box for the switch? i thought i knew what you were asking but i want to be sure.

Well... the wall width at 3", a regular size light switch box, and the face plate of the switch (photo)

Guess I answered my own wish. It will look like that photo.

I know elktwo had done it before, just was hoping it was a tiny bit more common.

It really depends whats back there. if it was a new build and you didnt have drywall up just about anything is possible.

the wire would need to be fished and a cut in box would need to be used. theres probably 2 or three studs in a row there.

another option is runing wire mold. i would only do this if the wires absolutely cant be fished.

You say "it will look like that photo". Isn't that your photo? If not, perhaps your own photo would help us. And, please step back so that we see the context.

It's 111" around the closet walls from the current switch location to the stud end where we'd like to place the new switch. (photo)

Guessing, conduit would have to be used, not BX.

No wire mold, we'll cut a channel in the drywall all the way around, and whatever is in the way of the pipe will get displaced, and then cut out a space at the stud end for a cut in box.

We're glad the consensus is using the stud end is allowed, but continue to question why Elltwo, and ourselves are the only people interested in doing this option.

Can't let that go.

"Usually", no matter how odd, it's been done before, and the information is widely disseminate.

Meaning, I'm concerned we're the only ones taking about a switch on a stud end.

But, who cares, right? If it fits, and the proper height, and wiring. All's well.

Is it possible, in a 60 year old condo, there is no ground wire?

Then the new GFCI box is grounded to.... ?

And, later, when the electrician wires the kitchen. Surely he grounds the boxes, and switches.

Thanks.

I mean. Would we have to rewire the whole condo to get a "real" ground wire, or is there a workaround when installing the new CGCI switches in the kitchen?
Thanks.

Wait a minute...

Alk the outlets in the apartment are three prong, so there is a ground wire.

Then, which is the ground wire in pictures of our boxes above.

You're saying, one of those wires are the ground wire, but the colors are all off.

Then, I open the switch, and see which color wire does what.

Sorry about this slow learning curve. Must be very tedious for you all.

Appreciate the help, and we will hire an electrician. Just trying ro learn some stuff from your generosity.

Reposted boxes

• Alk the outlets in the apartment are three prong, so there is a ground wire.

How do you know this?

I think you need to start by calling an electrician!

Insane. Sorry.

I checked the bath outlets with the "unique" wiring.
Klein reads, it all checks out.

I wouldn't trust a tester to tell you whether there was an actual ground wire back to the panel.

Those plug in testers are usually pretty accurate. ive never had an issue with them.

you could easily have three prong outlets and no ground wire. anyone could have swapped them.

adding a gfi and loading all downstream outlets is another way to get away without having an actual ground wire.

i highly recommend getting a quailierd lisenced eletrician out to diagnose any problems and not to keep taking eveything apart. theyll also be able to easily tell you if they can fish a wire and add the switch where you want.

why are you moving the switch again? if you want it to be a 3 way, you need to re configure and run 12/3 back to the original switch and a 12/2 switch leg out of this new one.

if youre just looking to move, the current switch would either become a junction box and have the wires fished to the new location or intercept somewhere down stream and run a new switch leg.

if you dont have an attic above this room or a basement below, they will have to cut channels in the drywall to feed the switch and also from the switch to the light.

We're building out a closet in a condo building, and the switch will get blocked.

Yes Electrician.

Why from the new switch to the light if we wire around the wall to the old switch, now turned into a box, that already connects to the light?

I said the current switch would either become a junction box OR theyd have to re feed it and run and new switch leg.

If there is a closet going exactly where the current switch is, obviously you couldnt have a juction box exactly where the switch was. it all depends how much slack they have on the wires if theyd need to be re feed.

as an electrician, without actually being there and taking a look, i can only guess.

Although you didn't answer my question, it sounds like you're in Chicago, where Romex is not code. I worked as an electrician's helper and everything was conduit or BX. I believe the electrician used the conduit as the ground, but that was over 60 years ago.

Also, if you use a switch box as a junction box, you can't cover it up. All boxes must remain accessible.

Myvhike. Thanks for your input. Good to know the facts about Chicago and romex.

Yep. I did answer your location questions. It's just, trying to be clever, I put the answer into a sentence talking about something else, instead of stand alone.

Hint: A lot of traffic.

I'm guessing/hoping the Klein plug is accurate and the bath is wired correctly.

I know they ran a lot of conduit, and very little BX in there, so maybe, dispite the unorthodox colored wires, running all that conduit means they followed the code.

I say that because 20 years ago, when wiring the kitchen, it was BX all over the places, with zero conduit. That all has to be redone.

And, Mtvhike, thanks for reminding me the old switch/junction box has to be accessible.

That won't be a problem because we are using the wall for the new closet backing, with a removable mirror in front of that box. And, if the design changes, we can add in a cut out.

Right. Dave, thanks.

Sure hope there will be any re-running.

I was thinking I missed something, and rewiring to the light was going to be necessary. Instead, I didn't read your post properly. Whew!

I am hoping the old switch can be repurposed into an accessible junction box using the same wires currently going from the switch to the light.

But, as we know, the electrician will know when they get onsite. I'm just trying to learn enough to give the electrician a thorough plan that's not horribly incorrect, and undoable. Not something that would need a total rework.

You all are making that possible.

We're really, really, grateful for your time. You've helped move the ball forward a lot.

What you're writing is filling in many of the gaps in our plan.

Now, if someone could find a photo of a switch in a stud end. Does one even exist?

Big thanks.

*won't be any

Putting a mirror in front of the box is fine. And yes, I noticed the reference to Chicago traffic! As far as I know, the only requirement for colored wires is that green (or bare) must be for ground and white for neutral. Hot can be any color (my Hyde Park condo had all orange hot wires!). Your electrician will know.

Note. BX isnt used these days. MC is what they run. There also many historic districs in lots of cities that dont allow romex.

also, again, black, red, blue should only be used as the hots in 120v. brown, orange, yellow are for 277v which youll find in commercial settings.

What's the difference between BX and MC?

BX was just a branded name for old armored cable.

in the field when we talk of BX cable, its always referring to the old ungrounded stuff that used the jacket as a ground.

MC is the current cable thats installed

So does MC have to have a separate ground wire while BX may or may not, or does BX refer to armored cable WITHOUT a ground wire?

When we see the old armoured cable without a ground in homes we refer to that as BX cable. Everything thats installed these days is referred to as MC and always has a ground.

1. Do not put a switch outlet on the end of a 4 1/2" thick wingwall with full studs. Whether someone says it can be done or they have, just don't do it. The notch will make the stud width unstable. You have cornerbead etc going there. It's just an ODD place for a switch to begin with.

2. "BX" (an old brand name) and "Greenfield" (the first named flexible metallic conduit early last century): both are armored cable, but incorrectly still referred to when describing any flexible metallic conduit (kind of like how people say "cinder block"). Older versions may not have an internal bonding strip required for grounding, whereas moden AC (armored cable) does.

3. AC (armored cable): the cable has a bonding strip to allow the cable sheathing to be used as a ground per NEC.

4. MC (metal clad cable): has a separate green sheathed THHN wire for ground per NEC.

5. Metal EMT (and AC/MC) conduit can be used as ground, so no separate THHN green (only color used for ground if sheathed) wire is needed. Your individual fixture grounds will be wired to the metal box.

6. All wiring in EMT will be THHN. Romex can be run in EMT per NEC, however, Romex is not used in Chicago and most of the cities in the metro-6 counties.

7. AC/MC will have limits on length of whips.

8. Different colors for the 'hot' are commonly used for travelers and sometimes if a junction box is used to pull different circuits.

_________________

- electrical amateur

Thanks for your thoughts.

Well... There needs to be a 1-7/8" opening cut from, 2-3/4" wide.

That's the face of the stud, the sides of the cut out area will still be there, and the cornerbead won't be touched.

It's more the drywall holding up the wall, right?

It's not load bearing.

What's the worst that can happen?

What other options are there?

Thanks.

"There needs to be a 1-7/8" opening cut from, 2-3/4" wide"

Even worse than a standard 4 1/2" thick interior wall (3 1/2" stud wrapped in 1/2" GB). The solution is to place the switch on a flat wall that is convenient to entering the space, as is done and as is expected for light switches.

Thanks again.

True.
Not complicated at all.

Just to say... convenience doesn't matter, as we use a switch sensor.

"As is expected" often doesn't come into play, especially when always starting from "form follows function".

And, with it being a sensor switch, which basically has no "function", meaning, no one will switch it, along with it being an "useless" sore on a short pristine wall, I'd prefer to keep working the problem, and put it, build it into, anywhere else.

The challenge is... where the hell is that anywhere else?

Thanks.