Here are qualities that define a hardship for building on land (below). In many municipalities if you request a variance and the neighbors (who will be advised of your request) do not challenge it, the variance will be granted. But if the neighbors complain, a thinly supported hardship request may fail. Note the hardship is not due to your personal situation, but must be a quality of the property itself.

• The hardship is born out of a quality or condition that is inherent in the physicality of the land parcel (topography, lot shape, etc.).
• The hardship is imposed only by conditions that are outside the property owner’s control.
• While the granting of a variance may improve personal circumstances ultimately, the hardship itself is not generated by any personal circumstance.
• The hardship is unusual and different in kind from that affecting other parcels in the same zoning district. In other words, it is unique to the subject parcel and not generally present in the overall district.
• The hardship is not based on financial considerations of the property owner. If a financial consideration is present, it is because the hardship is depriving the owner of the land’s value in an egregious way, either completely or almost completely.
• The hardship is not “manufactured” (an example would be something like subdividing a parcel and then seeking variances for the resulting parcels, asserting the act of subdivision as the basis of the hardship).

I agree Europe has some of the stictest rules about building any where . You triedto circumvent the rules and now you pay the price . Live and learn.

Hire a local architect that has experience with variances in your jurisdiction.

Hire someone who appears succesfully before the board often. It doesn’t sound like your asking for a lot. they will know the buzzwords required to get the variance.

What part of Europe are you from? I find it hard to believe that building there is more simple.

I am surprised variance is so simple to get in Los Angeles city. When I have asked building and safety planners in Los Angeles county, I have always been told it is nigh impossible to get a variance approved in county plus the fee for variance application is exorbitant.

Perhaps it would help you understand the point of variances before you attempt to build on or too near property lines. In the end it's for everyone's quality of life and protection.

Wow some of these comments are fairly unneeded. The poster is admitting they made a mistake and asking for ways to move forward correctly.

I would agree with getting professional support at the local level so you have someone in the know helping you navigate this.

I mean, the city required setbacks are what they are and ignorance of them doesn't absolve you of having to correct the plans. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality of the situation. I'm surprised the general contractor didn't question you on (a) the permitting and (b) the setback requirement. He should have known better and asked you to go to the city for a permit prior to construction. You can certainly plead your case to the city building department, but I wouldn't expect a ruling in your favor.

You can’t cut it back another foot and a half without tearing it down?

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Kendrah, we're from England and Germany. We both have family and friends over there who built significant structures/rental cottages in their gardens with no paperwork or permits (one, a French friend, in full view of the main road in St. Etienne, a Norman-tower-like "castle"). European red tape is greater, for sure, but in practice, there also seems to be more of a sense of laissez faire for modest projects.

P Banos -- thanks for the list. Not very hopeful. However, our neighbors are fully supportive, access to the property line will still be easy, and all we're asking for is a variance of 1.4 ft.

Michael and Mark, you suggest hiring a local architect with experience in our jurisdiction. We did exactly that. Variance never came up until late in the day when the city plan checker flagged it.

Appreciate your comment, WestCoastHopeful. We owned up to our mistake. And Sabrina, we have an architect and builder and surveyor -- none spotted the variance problem. Nor did the city inspector who came out here and gave us notes. Took them all by surprise.

Alicia, we can cut the deck back to 5.6 ft, but to get to 7 ft would have to remove part of the sunroom. Because of glass doors/windows, the builder says we cannot remove a section without destabilizing the rest of the structure. Will require demolishing and re-design.

Possibly we could keep the deck alone, which would still be useful. The variance may be different without a structure on top of it...

I know you owned up to the mistake. I find many of the comments in the thread to be unneeded as people basically mock you for making the mistake or accuse you of lying. That was my point.

Thanks for that, WestCoastHopeful.

Andrew

In my jurisdiction it helps to show other examples of nearby properties that have a similar encroachment. My client for example wanted to build a porch but modern 30 foot setbacks would preclude it even though all the houses around them had porches much closer to the street, we won do to being able to show that it fit the neighborhood pattern

That's a brilliant suggestion, Hallett & Co. We did actually think of it ourselves but encountered practical difficulties. We live on a narrow winding hill road in Los Angeles where it is hard to view rear gardens, most of which are significantly lower than the houses, hidden from street view. However, you've prompted us to give it another try. Thanks.

Our own house, and our neighbors' on both sides, would be in violation if built today. On one side, our side wall is less than five feet from the property line. Not long ago, we're told, the city allowed construction right up to the property line. Since then, they've steadily chipped away at that allowance.

You can start with looking at google street view and overhead views.

Will they show measurements...?

No but they may show similar backyard designs that could prove this isn’t out of line etc

My architect has always told me LA city is way more strict than LA county. We had a similar setback issues a couple of years back when doing an addition. Side setback is 5' in county. The architect designed the addition using the existing fence as the property line. Unfortunately, when the survey was done later, it was discovered that the fence is entirely in the neighbor's property, so the addition ended up being designed 6" too close to the property line. Since there are a lot of older homes in the area built very close to the property line (the same neighbor's home is less than 2' from property line), we asked if we could get an exemption. We were told to apply for a variance but the chances are very low and the variance application itself was almost $10K. This was before Covid. What is the variance application cost in LA city?

Our Northern CA city will sometimes grant variances for existing structures. You could maybe try that, but it would be iffy given that they clearly know the existing structure was just built. But yes, it's messy and you may end up having to start over, unfortunately. It helps that your neighbors don't plan to challenge it.

Just printed out a couple of views from Google Maps and Overhead. You can see how close everyone is, so a good resource, thanks.

Variance application cost? We've been dealing with the LA city plan checker in Van Nuys and he hasn't mentioned anything about such a fee. We know there will be a general fee to submit final drawings, etc., but so far no one has suggested there is a separate variance fee. Hope we're not in for a rude awakening!

There is definitely a fee for a variance application, usually a hefty one--but I think here, they're not actually asking you to apply for a variance, but to submit a hardship exemption application, which is different (and seems not to have a fee in LA, surprisingly!) I think the best you can do is to explain that you are asking for a very small reduction in the setback requirement to bring an existing structure up to code, that you have the support of the affected neighbors (attach a letter if you can), and that (if you determine this to be true) the resulting setback is in keeping with others in the neighborhood (attach photos if you can).

Hi Andrew - welcome to LA! Just a word of warning - while there *is* language that allows for variances to things like setbacks and RFA, I've been told multiple times that it is very rarely granted, and if it is, think $$$ - you have to spend a lot of resources making your case, and then it's entirely up to the city to determine the response (i.e. there are no guarantees). I also live in the hills and am in the process of design/permitting/planning - are you subject to the Mulholland Scenic Parkway review as well? For setbacks, there are some allowances for prevailing setbacks and nonconforming structures built prior to the BHO (if you're subject to that). Totally surprised your architect missed that - most of them are well versed in all of the restrictions. Building here is a major headache and permitting/planning creates MASSIVE barriers to housing affordability and access (not getting on that soapbox, but it's totally true). Sorry this is happening to you - hope you can salvage your project!

You say that your side wall is less than 5' from the property line ... is that on the same side that your seeking a variance? Is that grandfathered or a previous variance?

I assume the footings were poured for this project and not pre-existing. Would it be possible to meet the set-back requirements if new footings were poured for the deck and just changing the size, shape, or placement of the deck instead of taking space from the sunroom? Or maybe I'm not understanding the configuration? I was thinking that you're adding a sunroom to the back of a house and a deck off the back of that ... if that's not the configuration, do you have a plot plan that you can share that shows the position of the existing house with proposedsunroom and deck in relation to the property lines?

I think you're right, Artemis, this is a simpler and less costly procedure. The term "hardship" is used by the plan checker, though I don't find that word in the city Guidelines for yard reduction requests.

We have a letter of support from our neighbor, but the city doesn't want to see it. Apparently their rules changed a few months ago and they no longer accept such letters -- even though their Guidelines specifically refer to the "effect of the reduction on adjoining neighbors." Our architect says we should insist on the letter being part of our application package.

JP L -- thanks for the welcome and good wishes, this is a grreat board. We're not subject to the Mulholland Scenic Parkway, being in Brentwood.

The hardship exemption form does allow for attachments so I’d include it with that. A variance is a formal change to the rules for your property, while the hardship exemption is just ”why it’s a burden to follow the rules in this particular instance.” The latter is probably desk approval by the planner for your case, while the former is likely a far more involved process. If granted, an exemption doesn’t usually run with the property if you had to rebuild the sunroom in the future, for instance, but a variance usually does.

Blueberry, yes, the south wall of our house is closer than 5 ft to the property line, and that's the same side as we're seeking a variance for the deck and sunroom. That must be grandfathered in, since until fairly recently (around 2000, I think), homes in our neighborhood could build right up to the property line. Since then, the city has slowly been chipping away at the allowance.

Thanks for asking about the plot plan. I'll dig that up and see how to get it up here.

Footings were poured specifically for this project.

Andrewwla:

You are not in a position of strength here. You failed to know what you needed to know before you started and will now pay the price for that ignorance. I like Mark Bischak's advice, but that's a gamble too. Rebuilding a deck is much less expensive than the alternative. Good luck.

Joseph... Mark's advice was excellent --

"Hire a local architect that has experience with variances in your jurisdiction."

-- but we already did that. Also builder, structural engineer, surveyor. Excellent reputations, contacts at the city, none cheap. And an inspector from the city who came out once and pointed out issues. We went from initial measurements to design to plan checker's office. I don't mind being beaten about the head and shoulders for our ignorance, but at no point during this extended process did any of these experts pick up on the variance issue.

But your point is good. If we don't get approval, we certainly won't go the $10,000 appeal route!

Move the property line. Talk to your neighbor about buying 1.5 feet and if there is a mural agreement and price check with the city if it's allowed, but LA county allows it and here are a few links to the checklist requirements and the lot line adjustment application. Many places allow this, and many people have bought just a few feet of of the adjoining property to build stuff because of setbacks.

If allowed by the city there would be some expenses such as a real estate attorney, price of land surveys, title search and a need to get approval by the neighbor's mortgage company if they have a mortgage. If it's a 50' wide lot you are talking about 75 square feet, so what is 75 square feet worth in L.A.? I looked it up and the average price is $1.38 per sq. ft. but I don't know how accurate that price is.

So there you go, and with the deck you also add $103.50 to the value of your property for the thousands spent compared to a variant application fee possiably getting you a ZERO. The average price of a lot line adjustment is $3k to $6K but some cost as little as a $1000 and others $10,000 +.

A great idea, Kevin. Our neighbor suggested this herself and would have given us a good price. Her daughters shot it down.

The reason: Some years ago, the people on the far side of our neighbor's house built across the property line into her garden without even asking permission. About two feet or so. The wife is a particularly unpleasant, threatening person. Our neighbor wanted peace and ended up giving them free of charge that narrow strip of her land. Her daughters were then too young to interfere but said "Never again!"

And so it goes...

I'd be concerned that the professionals you hired didn't say anything about permits or set-backs ... it would certainly be a red flag for me. Or did they mention these and just not the variance? Why did they start work without a permit? I understand that you two weren't aware of the need, but they should have been. Are you the GC and the builder is just literally the person putting it together, or is the builder the GC?

I was also going to ask about the possibility of buying the sliver of land from your neighbor, though it'll somewhat depend on the position of their house ... you won't be able to purchase the strip of land from them if it would put any structures on their property out of compliance or further out of compliance with current set-backs. Guess if neighbor wonkt do it, that would be moot anyways.

+1. Surveyors and structural engineers typically just do the jobs they're asked to do, but your architect and builder 1000% should have known that this work needed to be permitted. I'm hoping this is more a situation where everyone knew and you opted not to go the permit route and then someone called it in or otherwise flagged it, and it's not that they actually didn't know or didn't tell you, which would be deeply concerning. If you just opted not to do it--that one's always a gamble, and sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. No judgment--we don't permit all of our projects either because it can sometimes add months to the schedule. If you opt not to permit, though, you should always write into your contracts that work must be to code. That way if you ever do have to retroactively permit something, you're at least working with something that's code compliant (or can ask the contractor to remedy it if not).

$1.38/sqft for land in Brentwood?!? if you pull that off, OP - you’re my hero!

It's just what I read off the internet that I don't agree with @JP L. In the not so nice areas of Minneapolis a lot can be had for about $6 to $10 per sq.ft., while exclusive area's go $35 to over $100 per sq. ft., and I'm sure the same applies to the areas of L.A.

I'd be curious to know the price what the neighbor offered the strip of her property per sq. ft., My guess would be $40 as a good price by a good neighbor, so @andrewwla what was the price?

Land in Brentwood is worth more than 40/sq ft. I’m guessing small tear downs go for more than a million.

Kevin, we never got around to money. Our neighbor raised the possibility of giving that strip of the property line to us for a nominal figure, incredibly generous of her, but the moment she mentioned it to her daughters, they vetoed it. Nothing personal, they;re lovely sisters, we get along very well with the entire family. They just think their mother made a big mistake giving land to the other neighbors and didn't want a repeat. It's possible we could have changed their minds, but we didn't feel comfortable doing that.

Alicia, I'm sure you're right. Prices in our neighborhood are through the roof, even during Covid.

Haven't checked land purchase prices recently, but one site gives $520 per square foot in Los Angeles (probably median, though unclear). Sounds like luxury homes to me, and we're definitely not that!

I’m sure Brentwood would be top dollar right under Santa Monica in terms of land prices. Moving the property line seems like it would be difficult, even if you could get the owner’s daughters to agree to it. Plus you’d have to make sure it doesn’t put any of her structures within the allowance. I’m sure the city has hefty fees for it too. I hope you get a solution that doesn’t require starting over. Your builder/architect should’ve know better! Even if they aren’t going to pull permits (which is risky when the construction is outside for the neighbors to witness), it should still be built to code so this kinda stuff doesn’t happen. Good luck!

@Alicia - Brentwood is actually MORE expensive than many parts of Santa Monica (assuming we're talking about SFHs vs condos, etc. given set-backs). You routinely see $3M+ for "tear-downs" (i.e. perfectly good modestly sized mid-century homes) - just for the value of the lot. It's insane.

When we moved in, our quiet hilly corner of Brentwood seemed predominantly academic -- lots of UCLA professors, school teachers, writers, psychologists. Our lovely neighbor is a relic of that time. More affluent lawyers, doctors, movie people, investment and real estate types, etc., tended to be blocks away. Now they're on our street! (Not a criticism, that's the way of the world, and some of these newer folk are really nice.)