Hi there, I have no idea how US bloom times compare to yours, but there is also a Salvia April Nights that, ad the name suggests, blooms earlier than May nights. I do not have good luck with Salvia sylvestris cultivars in my garden. I don’t know if it is the sandy, acidic soil or the high humidity that does them in. I rely on the ”tender“ salvias which have been reliably hardy for me. My favorite and earliest bloom is Mes Azur. Which usually gets started while the daffodils are still blooming and is usually one of the last plants blooming in late fall.

Last winter was the truest test of it’s hardiness and it did dieback a lot but it is blooming now and I’m sure it will recover.

@User, of the salvias you mentioned I only grow Caradonna. It is an early bloomer for me too, blooming in May and done now. It is more of a lavender color than blue. My favorite blue salvia is mystic spire and it starts blooming now. It is a blooming machine summer into fall in my garden

Caradonna is great here, Bart. Timing wise starts mid rose flush. Reblooms.

Thirty years ago I grew May Night in zone 9a California (Mediterranean climate) along with coreopsis Early Sunrise. Since that was a few years ago, I can't remember specifically when it started and ended blooming, but I really think it bloomed for at least 2 or 3 months. I had a very small garden there, and so I had time to deadhead flowers. I don't know if that made a difference for a longer bloom time. Bluestone Perennials website does say that it blooms through the summer.

Now I live in a hot and steamy zone 9 climate in Houston, Texas. My yard does not have many full sun spots, and those are all reserved for roses. Over the years I have tried to grow several different varieties of meadow sage here, but they have not bloomed well for me. I had assumed that was either because I didn't give it enough sun, or it is too muggy here. Last fall I decided to try again, and I was looking at varieties online. I noticed that many of the meadow sage varieties are listed as going through zone 8, and so I started to look for varieties that were listed through zone 9. Last fall I purchased one plant of Sallyrosa April Night, listed for zones 5 - 9. It is supposed to bloom earlier and longer than some others. I have been extremely happy with this plant in half a day of sun. It started blooming very early, in February, I think, and it still has some flowers on it now at the beginning of June. The number of flowers has dwindled since our hot weather set in this last month. The flowers are a brighter blue, and the flower spikes are shorter than the others you mentioned.

I've grown both here in hot, dry Livermore, CA (the climate of which is probably a lot like yours) and the first blooms of May Night start at least by late April/early May, and do occur with the first rose flushes. ; Secondary blooms (after deadheading) are still going out there now and will go on for some time. Caradonna was essentially a once-bloomer here and for a short while at that -- I wasn't impressed -- it didn't seem to like either our heat or our soil (I don't blame it). I've grown May Night here for at least 20 years, so it's been very reliable and a keeper, even get bonus seedlings from time to time.

Salvia greggii is an autumn sage, so a late bloomer. They are gorgeous, but they only really hit their stride later in the summer, and especially in the fall. It may very well be perennial for you, but you should not expect much in May and June.

Thank you all so much-this has been an enormous help. Not all of the ones mentioned in this thread seem to be available here, but of those that are I'm going for May Night, Caradonna, and Mystic Spires Blue. On the site of the nursery,they give the idea that Caradonna only starts in June, whereas Mystic Spires starts in May, which is sort of the opposite of forever and Sheila are saying,so I figure they're both worth a try. I'll give salvia greggi a miss,since it's so late. The others don't seem to be avaible here, so far.

I used to have "May Night". It was gorgeous in bloom but was a once-and-done plant for the most part -- occasionally they threw a couple later blooms here and there but nothing notable. I got rid of them because the foliage always looked tattered and cr*ppy after blooming. My climate is probably not like yours, but I'm not sure.

"Mystic Spires" is not hardy enough to act as a perennial in my climate, so we grow it as an "annual" summer flower here -- and it indeed does bloom all summer and into the fall until the cold weather finally sets in. Wouldn't be without it. Luscious color, nice foliage, nothing bothers it and pollinators and hummingbirds like it. I take cuttings in the fall for next year's stock, but it is readily available where I am, for now at least. If you can grow "Mystic Spires" as a perennial in your climate, that would be my choice. (or just grow it for seasonal color, like I do)

Salvia greggii(and microphylla and hybrids) are known as autumn sages, commonly blooming in the latter half of summer...but this is really only applicable to the early incarnations of this plant (such as salvia microphylla var..Neurepia). There has been so much breeding, bringing in peaches and cream tones of s.jamensis), that most of the shrubby salvias are well in bloom in May, continuing through almost to Xmas. At the moment, a soft pink Naomy Tree, Nachtvlinder, Icing Sugar, Sierra Sunset, So Cool Violet, Royal Bumble and half a dozen others who's names have vanished into obscurity, are all blooming fulsomely. I cannot recommend these shrubby salvias highly enough for those of us who garden in dry, lean soil. They were a revelation for me...not least because of their extreme ease of propagation.

I will say that the blues (Violin Music, African Skies, Blue Note do tend to be a little slower to get going but they have been almost as essential as the roses, for providing months and months of colour with no effort. They can grow tall - Sierra San Antonio reaches 5 ft...or can stay compact and neat at around 2ft (the Mirage series are good for smaller salvias)...and come in every colour apart from bright yellows (but primrose and soft creams such as La Luna and Lemon Drop can be had. They can sprawl gracefully, remain in a neat bush shape or work as supports for scrambling herbaceous clematis such as Alionushka. Please don't discount the shrubby sages...in my open, wind-swept, stony and unpromising site, they are some of my most stalwart performers. Much more reliable than the guaranticas, the Wishes series or the ubiquitous Amistad and it's relatives.

Mystic Spires has been my ’go to’ Salvia, it blooms 365 days a year in my hot dry California weather (mild winters). It is a great companion for roses, though it wants some space of its own. Fortunately the stem snap very easily if it gets too big. There’s a new dwarf version called Mysty that I’m trying this year.

Caradonna coincides with my first rose flush in May and is still going. I have tried many others but found myself returning to it, despite the fact that repeat blooming is poor. May Night was a stumpy, sprawling, mildewed mess here. Caradonna plants sprawl too, more so when water stressed, but I find the looser, taller spikes look more naturalistic with roses. I also love the dusty purple whorls of Salvia Verticillata Purple Rain - it needs a little more space than the nemorosa types. I haven’t tried Mystic Blue, preferring the perennial varieties, but might do so in future.

Re the shrubby salvias, by far my best is So Cool Pale Blue, whose blooming at least half way coincides with the roses’ first flush, then flowers prolifically and nonstop until late autumn. The large flowers are a sparkling lavender blue that look fab with all shades of pink roses in particular. Gets big if you let it, so needs a ruthless pruning down to woody stumps in February/March to tame it. Blue Note is later, feebler and with fewer, darker flowers that can visually disappear against the foliage.

SCPB:

Oh and, OT, but if you happen to be looking for a compact, long-flowering nepeta I can highly recommend Purrsian Blue! Nepeta and roses are probably my favourite combo.

Yeah, I was thinking nepeta, too, but read somewhere that the most common types can get sprawly and sloppy if grown in better soil. I think that Priola, however, DOES offer Purrsian Blue,but I'm already ordering from three other companies,none of which offere Purrsian B or Cat's Pajamas (which I believe is another that tends to stay sort of compact)k so that will have to wait for now. I definitely want to try nepeta, however. Like baptisia, that is on my mental list for other areas in the garden that aren't destined for regular watering. For now I MUST concentrate just on these 2 floribunda beds!!! I'm so scattered...

https://www.gardensillustrated.com/gardens/international/jardin-sec-filippi-gravel-garden-france

or Heidi Gildermeister and Bath Chatto, who have both written well on dry gardens.

Please do look at Olivier Filippi's work, Bart. For the last few years, I have been transferring to a no-watering garden (after the first establishing season) and, while Cambridge could not be classed as mediterranean in any way, the east of England is as arid as southern Spain, Israel and parts of the SW USA, with less than 2 feet of annual rainfall...all those lush gardens with clematis, rudbeckias, hydrangeas, veronicastrums, eupatoriums, thalictrums, sanguisorbas etc etc...even hardy geraniums, end up a sad mildewed mess. Phlox, which look lovely with roses, look well (like many of my perennials) until around late June, when they just stop growing (along with grass), then start to go backwards. I have really had to come up with strategies concerning plant choices and timing. Spring and summer planting is an absolute madness... but of course, I do, buying plants impulsively. I then have to accept a summer of being chained to a watering can.

Nepeta is very reliable here.

Purrsian Blue is better than Cats Pyjamas if you ever do need one, bart, more floriferous and stays rounded and compact without flopping. Someone on the UK thread used to grow both and PB was by far the better one. But yes, one thing at a time!

More Salvia 'Mirage Blue'. The color looks enhanced, but it really is that color. Sometimes it is more purple and sometimes it is more blue, but it is never really blue like S. chamaedryoides.

Salvia chamaedryoides comes into bloom as Salvia 'May Night' is fading.

I also grow Nepeta ‘Walker’s Low’ which although it begins to bloom before the roses, stays in bloom through the rose peak. Here in the center. 'May Night' is on the right, and the unknown seedling is a little in the distance on the far left.

I also grow Nepeta 'Walker's Deep Blue' which is supposed to be a darker blue sport, but the flower color is indistinguishable to me from regular 'Walker's Low' and it also seems to be less floriferous.

‘Cat’s Pajamas’ totally failed to grow for me, and ‘Little Trudy’ is weak, and blooms rather pinkish lavender rather than blue. I haven't been thrilled with it.

'Little Trudy'

Really informative review of the different salvias you grow, nosometer. It’s interesting how they perform in different conditions, Caradonna is an altogether taller and looser affair for me, but that could be my soil, which is clay but greatly enriched with a tonne of organic matter for the roses.

I really love ’Mirage Blue’ and will look out for that. I checked one of my French suppliers but they only do these two, not the blue. I rather like the smoky burgundy one but the violet one looks a little sombre:

This is an unnamed ‘salvia nemorosa’ variety I picked up locally, which is not Caradonna because the stems and blooms are lighter, but it has the same small, neat leaves. It’s going over now but has lasted longer, overall:

@noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque) you grow so many different salvias. amazing!

Noone mentioned Russian sage. It is misty blue and blooms whole summer. It and coneflower are two that I can’t be without

Mystic Spires is blooming now. It is also blue

Thanks Nollie and Newbie!

I can’t be without Russian sage (Salvia yangii) also, but that’s because it’s impossible to remove. Here, it gets five feet tall and is incredibly invasive, with huge amounts of shoots coming up from underground rhizomes to 10 or more feet away, where they all come up at the edge (and sometimes through) the paving. Cutting them back only makes them grow more. Russian sage would overrun a rose bed. My Russian sage is just starting to bloom here now, well after the peak of the roses.

This is today. The main plant is on the right in the back, the rest are suckers after cutting them all out this winter (even the ones in front of the main plant). I can‘t show you the whole thing because it reaches 20’ across. I hear that Russian sage performs differently in different climates though, and it is beautiful and indestructible.

Here it is against the paving more than 10 feet away and I’ve already cut them out three times this year. YMMV.

Well I never knew Perovskia/Russian Sage that is neither Russian nor a true sage has now been reclassified as Salvia yangii!

It doesn’t behave that way at all here, noseometer. I have to water it regularly to keep it looking good and if I need to hoik it out it easily pulls up and stays up. Admittedly, I have never tried it in the richer soil of the rose beds..

Russian Sage behaves well in our garden. It does get big, taller than myself and just as wide

I don’t find it spread, though occasionally seedlings show up now and then. I only grow one now in a tight space so it competes with coneflowers, some bulbs and a Japanese maple

You are lucky that it's much better behaved for you! I don't water it at all and we only get around 10" of rain a year. Here it seems bent on taking over the world.

I'm still not used to the new name and struggle to remember it. I still call it Perovskia.

This is July, and this section shown is about 8 feet across, 5 feet high, and you can start to see all the suckers growing up along the wall:

@noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque), Oh no! As much as I love Russian Sage, I would not like it to take over my garden beds. Thanks for warning people. But your Russian sage is stunning beyond words!

One friend grows a few Russian sages for years, and they seem to do well. They are beautiful now in bloom and she has not the spreading problem. Maybe Russian sage loves dry condition better? I also never water this bed but we get a lot of rains in spring and summer (at least early summer)

Russian Sage is beautiful here and not a problem. Euphorbia, on the other hand is very difficult to control here.

Russian Sage has failed to grow and died out the three different times I've tried to get it going here -- and that was in the "nicer" rose beds, not in the rubbishy soils that some of the rest of the garden has (it grew fine in Massachusetts!).. What an interesting range of experiences!

'Blue Jean Baby' died for me, which was a big surprise, considering how vigorous the species is here.

This thread has become so good, thanks to all of you who have contributed. If nothing else, it proves that, like roses, at least SOME perennials behave very differently in different locations!

I'm hoping to get salvias Blauhugel, Mainacht, and Caradonna. Clearly the only way I'll know how they'll behave in my garden is by experimenting. "Mystic Spires" was out of stock, so that'll have to wait. I also decided to give Nepeta faasseni a try. . Later on I hope to order from Priola which does offer Purrsian B.

Perovskia seems to me to be the sort of plant that I'll be wanting to use in other places in the garden,not with the roses. It blooms too late, and it's vigour and drought-tolerance make it seem ideal for areas which won't be recieving regular irrigation.

I’m finding it really helpful and informative too, thanks for starting it bart bart.

Having had an early heatwave, I have few roses in bloom now, so tough shrubs and summer perennials are critical elements, without which the garden would look very dull.. Purple and lavender blue perennials are my go-to link plants for unifying my two gardens either side of the house.

Likewise. I've probably re-read this thread three or four times. Should have mentioned thanks to @suzy jackson for the link and thoughts. Interesting reading! Beautiful Mediterranean garden in that link. I dream of a garden like that!

yep, it is a good thread, isn't it? Has turned my thoughts back towards the hardy nemorosas and such.

Noseometer, have seen pics of your beautiful garden which honestly has that same ambience. Have you seen the Delos garden at Sissinghurst

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU24UQJqHEw

Suzy, that's an amazing garden at Sissinghurst. I haven't heard of it before. It looks very Mediterranean, hard to believe it's an English garden. Perhaps a little like Beth Chatto's gravel garden.

Thanks for your kind comment on my garden. I tried to do the opposite of that Sissinghurst garden: I tried to make an English-style garden in the American high desert.

At my previous house (photo below), I tried to make a Mediterranean garden here in the high desert (too cold in the winter for many Mediterranean plants), and my neighbor who is from and lives primarily in France said that my garden looked like where she is from. I took that as a compliment. The cistus didn't survive much longer after this photo, our winters here in the foothills were just too cold.

I had Salvia 'Blue Note', Salvia 'May Night', and Salvia 'Indigo Spires' behind the wall (and lavender and euphorbia - which is borderline here, and not difficult to control as it is for Sheila). BTW for Bart, 'Mystic Spires' is the smaller version of 'Indigo Spires' and for my mother in California, 'Indigo Spires' grew to about 3+ feet tall and 5 feet wide and bloomed all year round, if that's something you are interested in.

In Bay Area California (a Mediterranean climate), 'Caradonna' will rebloom at least once, and sometimes even twice, if you cut it back to the base rosette when the blooms are spent. I do not know if that would be true where you live. It also reseeds and comes true, which I liked. You can pull any you do not need.

As for the Salvia greggiis, I grew several of them, though I forget which ones. In the end I took them out in their third year. They get very big and very woody, and I simply didn't like them anymore.

There was another meadow sage I liked a lot. I think it was 'Blue Hills'. I hope so, because that is the one I bought for my new garden. A lot of the meadow sages develop an untidy habit of sprawling. One blue one did not, and I think (hope) it was 'Blue Hills'.

I have never liked Russian sage. It is too enthusiastic a spreader, kind of like gallica roses on their own roots, but without the beauty of roses as a saving grace.

Oh, and some of the quite lovely larger salvias are thugs which spread on underground suckers. It took me 5 years to completley get rid of one I tried. Sorry, I no longer remember the name

After seeing ’Caradonna’ at the Green Bay botanic garden, I may change my mind about it and give it another try.

Salvia guaranitica 'Van Remsen' has been excellent here this year. Should be hardy at least into zone 6b with protection.

https://open.substack.com/pub/rustyblackhaw/p/stars-of-october?r=tl6bq&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false

I love my salvia Caradonna! Yes, it’s only most beautiful in May and half of June here in zone 7, but I love it so much then, it’s worth it. I grow it in containers in different combinations. My favourite one is with Veronica. I don’t know how to attach videos here, but here’s a link to my short that shows this container behind the Pomponella rose. https://youtube.com/shorts/D7qNLXl3blU?is=p0TNBzdEM0EB8FnS

Are there any that don't smell like B.O.?

Depends on what you consider BO smell, but Salvia clevelandii has a wonderful fragrance (the whole plant, not the flowers), to my nose. Salvia chamaedryoides doesn't have much of a scent, only if you cut the stems, not when you brush against it like many salvias.

They have no smell, except for the rare occasions when you have to cut them, so no problem.

1 - Salvia greggii is nice its first year, but gets woody and twiggy the second year.

2 - Years ago when I first planted salvias I disliked the smell and pulled them out. Some years later I decided that they were far too useful in the garden to be omitted and began to use them again. Just don't sniff them. The fragrance of the S. nemerosa and S. sylvestris cultivars does not waft so it is easy to avoid if it does not appeal to you. Just smell the roses instead.

3 - I agree that Carradonna is very nice. Some of the blue cultivars split and sprawl unattractively as the season progresses, but not all. I'm trying to remember which one worked well for me in my old garden but it escapes me now. Blue Hill? Maybe.

4 - Russian sage spreads aggressively in both Colorado and California, speaking from both observation and experience. I would never plant it again.

Salvia Caradonna is very upright. No splitting in the 2 years I’ve grown it. the second year it grew more impressive, vertical. Salvias tend to split when fertilized, so I tend not to do that. Well rotten manure compost at the beginning of the season is enough.

No one mentioned Agastache? I have easy to grow, 'Honey Bee Blue'. I enjoy this plant. My favorite part about it is that it smells like root beer when you rub the leaves. [g] It is not a spectacular plant. And it's not early, mine are just starting to bloom July 13th. This year I have no roses in bloom to go with it, but normally I am well into a 2nd flush of blooms by then and I have roses in bloom until the frost. So they do intersect at a later point. I also love that it gently reseeds and the extras you don't want are easy to pull. I am much happier with them, when I pinch out the center growth on all the stems early and it really responds by widening and become bushier. Have never lost them over the winter, I never give them any attention. They get watered with every thing else.

One companion for roses for me is Hydrangea paniculata. I love this combo and I find the paniculatas, love full sun and seem to do well on the same watering schedule as the roses. The only care I give them, is to prune them back in the spring to cut off any dead blooms and keep them to the shape I prefer.

I loved the discussion of Salvias. I need to try a few more varieties. I only have the 'Blue Hills' and 'Rose Queen' both of which are fine. They can reseed a little. I don't find their bloom cycle long or the rebloom all that significant. And the flowers are a little underwhelming. Stil, I've had them in my garden since 2005, so I seem to have some reason to keep them around. [g] I wouldn't say they are a great companion for roses though. Maybe some of the other Salvias are better at that.

I bought the Salvia guarantica 'Black & Blue' again this year. For potential hummers, not really as a rose companion. What a waste of money. Never again. Terrible performer for me and this summer should have been great for them. And I grew them in pots.

A companion plant I love with roses, are.... OTHER roses! lol

Yes! I love agastache too! very tall, upright and a long bloomer. lovely scent too.