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racheljane

Condensation freezing inside windows

12 years ago
New house, still under new home warranty, noticed today this thick frost built up inside most windows in the house. In some cases so bad the paint has started cracking on the frame. House has many cold spots despite heat on 20 and fireplace on frequently. Humidity in house is on low setting.

When I open drapes and raise the shades the frost melts and I guess would eventually dry out. The whole reason I went with Duette Architellas by Hunter Douglas is that they're energy efficient, supposed to cut heat loss by 50%. But they can't do much for me if I must keep them raised in winter so that windows don't stay frosted.

Our builder is coming by this week to take a look. Any idea if this is a builder warranty issue? Any suggestions as to rectifying this problem aside from keeping shades and drapes open all winter? Aargh!!

Comments (41)

  • 12 years ago
    Are these double paned windows ?
  • 12 years ago
    I would approach it as a defective product issue and asked that they be replaced at no cost to you. In preparing for that, I'd google the name of the windows and the problem you're having to see if you can find any forum type discussions about the problem, or reviews of the product on websites that sell them.
  • 12 years ago
    Really, this should not be happening in new construction. I can't believe how substantial this issue is. Show your builder these pictures.
  • 12 years ago
    Defective product and I'm betting some lack of getting proper seal in the wall around the window with insulation. I've seen this a few times at humid house plus -40 outside but NOT like this person is indicating in NEW construction.
  • 12 years ago
    Actually a better window will do it more when you put an insulated blind over it, because there are NO leaks for air circulation. Also, a new house is always more humid as everything including the studs are still drying.
  • 12 years ago
    Thanks for the input, everyone. Question for Fred or anyone else who can answer: If it is the case that this result is to be expected in this frigid weather, then what is the point of energy efficient shades like the Duettes that I have on these windows? Are they only good for keeping the heat out in summer? I was told they would cut my heating bill in winter but they won't be very effective for that purpose if I have to keep them open.
  • 12 years ago
    With an dew point of -32 C , the indoor relative humidity would have to be 2% for nothing to happen. The inside and outside want to equalize. This will either happen by air Exchange from outside to inside through leaks or by condensation and freezing. At a low 15% R.H. your dew point is approx.-7 C . Once you insulate the blind to the point the interior window pane is below -7 C, with these conditions, you will always get the same result. Your indoor R.H. is probably closer to 50% which gives a dew point of + 9 C. Even at a R.H. of 35% which gives a dew point of 4 C, or recommended 20% giving a dew point of -4 C that is still a long ways from -32 C. Insulated window treatments effectively put the window outside of the building envelope into the -30 C side of the environment.
    http://www.mcleodwindows.com/technical/condensation-tips/
  • 12 years ago
    That falls under the category of bad advertising. Sort of. Once the temperature starts warming up and the outside dew point is on the rise, you will have less problems. The calculations change with conditions, so I won't do them for what temp. It is safe to use the blinds, but it is probably half way between now and freezing.
    You could try running the fan all the time on your hvac system. It may help get the useful range of the blinds down another 10 degrees outside temperature. You could install a DE-humidifier, but it is probably not worth it and the air would be miserably dry.
    Mostly you will need to get used to the house. It will improve some over the next year. Getting some efficient make-up air in your hvac system and having it turn on with the bath fans and range hood is probably the best money spent. And putting your bath fans on a humidity sensor.
  • 12 years ago
    I'm a fan of baths.
  • PRO
    12 years ago
    Impossible to know exactly what is going on from two photos. I suspect you will need to take a phased approach to get to the root of the problem.

    The inside of any double pane window, no matter how good, will hit the freezing point if exterior temperatures drop low enough AND it is not exposed to interior space heating. Yes it's double pane, but no it still doesn't insulate very well compared to a wall. An average double pane window has an R value of about 2 (or a U value of .50). Most wall assemblies will have an R value of 12 or higher. So your window is always going to be the coldest surface on an exterior wall - which is why we've traditionally stuck heaters right below windows...to keep the inside pane at a temperature closer to that of the interior wall - in an attempt to keep the interior pane at a temperature above the dew point. All that is a fancy way of saying we try to keep the window surface warm so moist interior air doesn't hit it and condense (or at colder temperatures, freeze) as soon as it hits it.

    Saving energy is good. But if your blinds are TOO good, they will not allow enough heat to reach the interior pane to keep it warm enough to stop condensation from occurring. So yes, it is entirely possible your energy saving blinds are so good that they are leaving your poor windows out in the cold to freeze their buns off.

    Phased approach:
    One - confirm that the relative humidity inside your home is within recommended ranges for winter. If the RH is too high, bring it down to recommended winter levels and see if this solves the problem. Don't go lower than recommended levels...you need a certain amount of moisture to breathe comfortably.
    Two - if RH is within recommended range for winter and you are still getting frost, remove the super insulating blinds and allow the space heat to do its job and keep your inside panes at a temperature above dew point and see if this solves the problem.
    Three - if you have RH in normal ranges AND remove blinds and are still getting frost then you need to move on to investigating if the problem is either the windows themselves or if your heating system is not adequately distributing heat throughout your house.
    Four - fix yourself a good drink, maybe two

    Best of luck.
  • 12 years ago
    Thanks for all the great advice. I think I'll start with #4 and pour myself that drink. ;)
  • 12 years ago
    The Big Small, do you think this will resolve after The Big Chill ?
  • 12 years ago
    The simple solution, but very inefficient is to open all the doors and windows once in a while to equalize the dew point inside and out. This effectively lowers the R.H.
    FYI the recommended air changes of outside air per hour for a house is something like 5 total air changes per hour. That is a lot. Newer better built houses actually cause a lot of problems that need to be addressed from a different angle.
  • 12 years ago
    Humidity has been kept at 20% or lower, and bath fans are running most of the time. Forgot to mention, we also are seeing condensation / frost accumulation on a bathroom window, in a guest bathroom that has been used for showers maybe 8 or 9 times in the past 11 months. Paint also cracking on this window frame. Window has no blind or other covering. This problem started with this particular window well before this cold snap, and before the shower was ever used. I have assumed this was an installation issue. Fortunately, so has our builder, though she has yet to do anything about it. How likely is this particular issue due to faulty installation?
  • 12 years ago
    Do you have a DE-HUMIDIFIER? The toilet bowl will bring the relative humidity up past 20%. Have you actually checked the humidity? or the gauge you are using is off. I am in the exact same weather conditions as you (temp. & dew point) and the humidity in the house is at least 35%. That is with a wood burning stove running as a De-humidifier.
    I can imagine one window being bad, but unlikely to be all. What side of the house is the bathroom? The direction of the wind can effect window performance a lot. I am looking at a window 5' away from the 600 F wood stove. The closer pane has a bug screen over it and has frost and the pane further from the stove without a screen has none. The window furthest from the stove has no more frost than the closest. The bathroom has more. (the one that doesn't get used included). These are top of the line Anderson windows. They were installed properly. It would be hard to tell it yours are done correctly without tearing them apart.
  • 12 years ago
    Rachel, there is too much humidity in the house and not enough air circulation. Run your furnace fan continually all winter, get a dehumifier and set to 30. It will take days to get the humidity at this level consistently. Leave your blinds up for now until you get rid of the humidity. Once you do, I would maybe still leave about an inch up so air can get to the window. If you still have this problem with low humidity and the air circulating, then I would say your furnace isn't large enough for the size of your house.
  • 12 years ago
    Bungiegirl, if the furnace fan isn't running most of the time at -30 C, then the furnace is big enough. The standard problem on this is that the furnace is actually too large and therefore inefficient.
  • 12 years ago
    When I built an energy-efficient house in Vermont, where the temps routinely are below 0 degrees F in winter, I had to install a timer on my upstairs bathroom fan, so it would recirculate outside air several times a day.
  • 12 years ago
    Fred S .... we can set the fan to manual or auto on our thermostat. We keep ours on manual so the fan is on all the time, not just when the heat comes on. If we don't, we have condensation.
  • 12 years ago
    Yes,bungiegirl most furnaces have that. But as long as the house is still warm and the furnace isn't running continuously, then the furnace is not too small. It is usually the opposite ( the furnace is too big) that will cause problems.
  • 12 years ago
    last modified: 12 years ago
    Thanks Fred S for this info. We are having this problem now with the incredibly cold weather. Running the dehumidifier almost all the time now which has helped. Older home but new windows.
  • PRO
    12 years ago
    You need a tight fitting window shade or warm moist air gets behind window blind and condensates. At cold temperatures this will turn to ice and will continue all night until blinds are opened up in the morning.. I to not know your blinds, but you need a very tight fitting blind . "Window Quilt" is a type I have used that is sealed to your window frame when closed. It is also true that a new home will have more moisture problems the first year. You may need to de- humidify your home air and let out moist air on a sunny day.
  • 12 years ago
    Get a couple of HVAC people to take a look. This is not a window problem but is a moisture issue.

    In our house they had hooked up the fresh air system completely wrong ..took twenty years to figure that out!
  • 12 years ago
    Yes you are correct In your statement Fred. Rachel says she has many cold spots even with the furnace set at 20 and the fireplace on quite a bit. she doesn't mention whether her furnace is running a lot. I was just thinking if after having the air circulating constantly from the fan and the humidity is low, than my assumption was that the furnace doesn't have enough for e to keep her windows clear. I admit, I'm not an expert, just someone who had the same problem.
  • 12 years ago
    *force
  • 12 years ago
    More likely, the running fireplace (assuming a sealed gas fireplace) is keeping the furnace from running often and circulating the air. It is the not running often enough in cold weather that causes these problems. Yes, turn on the fan to run all the time. I mentioned that in my 4th post. I know it sounds backward to say a furnace is too big, but it is often the case unless you put the fan on an always on setting. You will get cold spots. In this situation, it is probably due to the fireplace that does not circulate air throughout the house evenly bring turned on and messing with the HVAC thermostat and therefore the whole system.
  • 12 years ago
    It is not so much about force as keeping the air moving in the case of cold spots. The windows still being a matter of moisture and outside temp. unless you seal the blinds so moisture can't get to the window, or blow air under them (which is counter productive to their insulation ability) Then, there is always some point that will frost up the windows.
  • 12 years ago
    This has been very educational for me, thanks for all the info and suggestions. Wish it had occurred to me to look into this before winter hit. I just thought, well I have these great insulating shades and heavy drape and that will help keep out the cold. The humidity/condensation issue did not enter my mind.

    Re: the furnace, it runs often; we do use the gas fireplace frequently but the furnace runs more frequently. As for humidity, I can't fathom there is a lot of moisture in the air given how dry, cracked and flaky my skin is, and it's not from being outdoors since I rarely am in winter.

    I'll follow these helpful suggestions and hopefully put a stop to the problem. I will have lots of re-painting window frames come springtime.

    It just occurred to me we have a friend who's an HVAC tech. Might have him come by to assess things for us.
  • 12 years ago
    Thanks for sharing, Fred! Good info to know!
  • 12 years ago
    Years ago i lived in a house that had double sashed single paned windows in the bathroom. Always after a shower, condensation formed on the glass. The water made a good adhesive for clear bubble wrap. I figured that the bubble wrap provided more privacy and increased the R value of the windows. I wanted privacy but didn't want to stop the sunlight coming thru
  • PRO
    12 years ago
    @Rachel Jane - tardy response. Busy with my own emergencies.... If you have an HVAC contact, that would be a great resource to tap into. If you could get somebody with a hygrometer to get an accurate reading of your indoor relative humidity that would be helpful. If the problem is not high humidity you can move on to investigating other possible causes.

    You mention that you have had moisture problems in the guest bath from the get go. How is that room heated? It sounds like your home is heated with forced air. Is this the case? If so, are there heat registers located below the windows? Are some rooms warmer than others? Were you present during your build? Did you see it as it was being insulated?
  • 11 years ago

    Read the issues with Anderson Windows http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/andersen-windows-rotting-wood-in-the-windows-c652793.html That could be the issue. When we chose new FULL Replacement installed windows we went with the newer Triple Pane Soft-lite Imperial windows. We are in Minnesota in MPLS area. Keep the HVAC Fan ON, Open the windows blinds to allow the air to circulate during the day. If have top down bottom up blinds the keep the top "open" and bottom "open" some to allow the air to circulate. Read the idea of making a shade so tight it acts like a window. That is an interesting idea. But doubt in the real world it would work! But certainly worth investigating. We are "testing" our new windows in one room to see if and when condensation / freezing occurs or does not. Typically when the seal of a window is broken one will see fogging inside the window panes (which cant be wiped off the inside of the windows surface since it is between the windows panes. Then you know the seal is especially the culprit for sure. The photo showing the condensation and ice is the worst could even imagine! We changed our bathroom fan to a Panasonic modern fan that has a motion and humidity sensor to help lower humidity. What did you do to fix that problem now it is two years after it was posted?

  • 10 years ago

    There is too much humidity in the house. If you have an air exchanger ensure it is at the right setting. My windows will also do that if it gets really cold outside (-35+) so I have to reset my air exchanger to the correct setting.

  • 8 years ago
    This has been very helpful! Thanks.

    I can tell you what NOT to do, lol. Do not use a heat gun to try and melt the ice off of your windows when the outside temperature is -40°F... Shattered our bedroom window. Not my proudest moment.
  • 7 years ago

    2/6/19 Rachel, I have the exact same problem and my windows look exactly like yours. I have lived in my home for 5 years (newly built) and have had Toll Brothers (by any chance do you live in a Toll home?) replace one window the 2nd year here. Replace the bottom sash with argon gas sashes (year 4) and now we are approaching year 5 and 5 of my rooms have it. They are located at different ends of the home so it's not the wind, direction the home sits, or any of the other things that are listed. I can feel a breeze next to my blinds when they are closed and I have to actually scape the ice with an ice scraper and dry the window or I would have a mold/rotted wood problem also. I am at wits end and now they want me to send them articles and brochures I have read or what I have googled about this not being normal!!!!!!!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME??????

  • PRO
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    cstegura, do yourself a favor and start a new posting about the problem with your windows. I'm sure that info from a posting that is 6 years old is worthless. Read this article.

    https://www.thespruce.com/how-to-tell-if-a-window-seal-has-failed-1822894

    Also, I suggest that you stop speaking with people at Toll Brothers or the window manufacturer who are not in a position to say "yes" to replacing your windows. It's a waste of time. Take your complaint to the top. Someone who signs the checks. The article says this seal failure happens all the time. Get the company to honor their window warranty. DO NOT DELAY.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Our house was built in September 2016 and jeld wen windows put in. Rep was out first year and put some new seals in. Now out of warranty and won’t even talk to us.

    humidity is at 20% and windows are terribly icy. So bad that I have towels and washcloths everywhere. I have ceiling fans running and standing fans. Outside temps are 10-20 below at night. I cannot shut my curtains!

    Please help!!!!

  • 2 years ago

    We will never get Andersen windows again. This has been a frustrating situation for many years in the winter. We built the house new and thought these were good windows to choose. We even installed an air to air heat exchange system as a way to remedy this problem. Yes the indoor air is good, but the windows still have condensation when the temps are cold in Wisconsin.

  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    hodie Most likely nothing wrong with your windows at all. This guy has the same issue, again not window related. Maybe not specified properly but not really the fault of the window.



    Edited to add the link for the other thread.

  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    It is the fault of the window design, the type of sash used is not suited for a cold climate and this leads to these problems. Then the stool (interior sill) becomes damaged. Judging from the amount of complaints about the same windows, same problems, and the same ongoing issues it is indeed Andersen windows poor design for cold climates. There are many people who do not post on sites and explain the exact same experiences with these problematic windows. It is widespread and Andersen has lost all credibility in not admitting that they have a bad design and it is causing many problems for consumers.