Was a load calculation done for the house? The house is big, but 7 tons of cooling seems over sized. What are the sizes of the current equipment?

Do you have natural gas available in the house? Depending on your utility rates it may be more economical to heat with a high efficiency gas furnace rather than heat pumps with a duel fuel set up.

Posters have reported problems using the Nest thermostat with certain types of equipment. There are better thermostats available that have proven track records.

I assume a good load calculation has been performed for correct sizing? It should be given to you in writing.

All these vaulted areas are of concern to me. Can be problematic for heating and cooling. I would want the duct system for these areas closely examined. Might even consider a zoning control.

I assume there is a good reason for the DF package system over a split system where one can get a high eff condensing furnace which I would prefer.

All good equipment quoted. I would want HW VP IAQ Prestige stat over the nest. Did you want Internet connectivity?

Like Mike, would want to know if you have nat gas or propane.

IMO

I have a load calc, but don't understand it. What can I tell you about it to help?

This is an upside of 0.5 tons on both units. There are a number of windows and French doors that cause concerns. Unfortunately the existing units are so inefficient that I am afraid we cannot base the new units off the current system.

What would be the good reason for the package system? I don't have a problem with a split system, but the house currently has a package system.

I will look up the IAQ. Yes, I do want internet connectivity if it is not unreasonably priced.

We have nat gas.

Well since you have existing package unit, that is probably the reason.

What is price of nat gas/therm and electric/KWH?

Load calc should be broken out for each zone/system.

Cooling load heat gain
Heating load heat loss

How are these vaulted areas now as far as cooling comfort? Any hot /cold spots in home, I suppose just hot spots since you probably don't have a history with heating.

Just curious, did Trane dealer even suggest installing a split system for downstairs system and closing up hole at existing package unit?

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 11:20

Winter 0-30 Therms* $1.2636
Winter 31+ Therms $1.0514
Summer 0-50 Therms $1.0849
Summer 51+ Therms $0.9663

Current electric rate $0.08469

Upstairs the heating load is 45126 and cooling is 29273
Downstairs heating is 65331 and cooling is 49314

The upstairs unit is practically shot and not being run (we are renovating and have not moved in). Downstairs seems to cool well. I have not noticed hot spots.

I have asked about going split on downstairs.

I am also waiting on another quote from a second Trane dealer just for comparison sake.

I would ask 2nd Trane dealer about his thoughts on a split system for downstairs zone with vaulted area.

Size of existing package unit is also 4 tons?

And for upstairs zone, it's also a 3 ton HP system as well.

I will run some fuel cost comparisons later today when I have time.

IMO

Thanks Tigerdunes. I was hopeful you would respond. I will find out about split. Both units have been upsized by 1/2 ton. Downstairs is currently 3.5 and upstairs is currently 2.5.

Tiger,

Got the second quote. They quoted the exact same system. I will have to follow up on split system.

Did you have a chance to run the numbers on fuel cost comparison?

Also, is there a specific model of the Prestige T-stat I should ask for?

I have not had the time to run the comparison numbers but will over the weekend. Dealer should know the model numbers. If you want Internet connectivity via computer, smartphone, tablet, let him know.

You might want to visit HW thermostat website.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Honeywell Thermostats

Should build

OK here is your fuel comparison. Your electric is relatively cheaper than your nat gas rate. The comparison bears this out. Understand this is to be used as a guide only.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat

Electric baseboard: $2.24
Heat pump: $0.83
Natural gas: $1.33

I like the way your dealer speced out the systems. Going up in size though could be problematic. You want to make certain both ductwork systems have been thoroughly checked out.

What size heat strip for upstairs system?

IMO

10kw heat strip upstairs

This is my first post on TGW.

I will be the first to say that my experience with Trane is very subjective and anecdotal, but the following experience is mine nonetheless.

We bought an existing single story 2280 sq. ft. home in Auburn, AL in May of 2012 (15 months ago). One thing that sold me on the home was the presence of a Trane 14SEER HP with variable speed blower installed in 2007.

In June, one month after purchasing the home, we had to call the local Trane company to come out for a non-cooling situation.

By August, we had replaced (due to actual failures, not just "failing") the compressor, the blower motor, the blower motor circuit board. All but the circuit board were under a part warranty. However, with labor, freon recharging, etc. We shelled out over $2600 in 2012 alone. In March of 2013 we had to replace a startup capacitor, not under warranty, for $400.00. All told, since June of 2012 (this post is made in early Sep 2013) we have spent well above $3,000.00 on this Trane HVAC system.

In that time, I have learned (from an independent, well respected local HVAC guy) that our system is woefully OVERsized. We have a 5 ton unit in a space that, I believe, calls for a 3.5 ton unit. We have $500 power bills in the summer months.

In general, I think Trane makes a great product like BMW makes a great car. You should just know what you are getting into.

The most urgent comment I would make to anyone buying a Trane is to DEFINITELY get the maximum parts and labor warranty you can get and make sure it's transferrable to a new seller.

PW

This post was edited by PecanWaffle on Tue, Sep 3, 13 at 10:49

PW's post highlights two very important aspects in achieving reliable and efficient heating and cooling:

(1) proper sizing of the equipment to be installed
(2) installation following best practices and manufacturer specifications

Sadly in the above case, from the sounds of it neither of the above were applicable. And it is highly likely that all of the failures occurred as a result of such. Variable speed blowers do not like undersized duct systems (which is most probably as many homes, especially with oversized systems, are significantly lacking in adequate return/supply air capacity, and the system is starved of airflow; add an overcharged system, and the situation is worse), nor do compressors. Excess starting/stopping due to the short cycling of an oversized system could wear out a start capacitor sooner than it should.

Best of luck.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Tue, Sep 3, 13 at 10:26

Have to agree with Ryan.

You probably could have filled in any brand besides Trane and would have had similar results.

It would be interesting to know what size system was replaced.

And this just goes to show the importance of choosing a reliable dealer who has a history and reputation in the marketplace they serve.

But as anyone who reads these HVAV forum knows, correct sizing on both equipment and ductwork system is paramount. I think homeowners have to do their job and due diligence through research as well. So I will give a small amount of responsibility for this failure and problems to the above poster.

IMO

Tigerdunes, I accept responsibility inasmuch as I bought the house in 2012 with the oversized Trane HP installed in 2007.

The previous owner is the winner of the blind check writer award. He is the one who installed the system from a company run by idiots.

I have no knowledge of the system that was in service prior to the Trane. I relied on the professional opinion of the "certified" home inspector prior to the sale that all major systems in service at the house were in proper working order.

My $350 for the home inspection would have been better spent on paying someone to punch me in the gut.

To the OP - I didn't mean to hijack your post. But as Ryan pointed out, proper sizing is critical. With the amount of money you are planning to spend, I would pay for an independent second opinion, and certainly get a 10 year parts and labor warranty if available.

PW

Yep

I agree about these home inspections services. They are usually about as good as these third party warranty companies. Gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling but more times than one can count are generally worthless.

Sorry for your bad experience.

IMO

Regarding home inspection, we knew that there were problems as the units were 14 years old. I could replace just the upstairs and deal with the downstairs, but I have decided to do the whole thing at one.

Although I did not have an independent load calc., 2 Trane dealers made the same recommendation.

TD, what do you think about the Trane Extended Warranty? I can extend the labor piece for the 10 years of the parts warranty for about $850 per unit and have 1 year from the date of install to do it.

Since you say you are going up in size, a thorough evaluation of both duct systems should be performed. That would be size both supply and return, adequate returns for both zones, insulation qualities, leak tests, and any areas in your home that have hot/cold spots.

As far as ext warranty, you can expect to pay up to 10% of the purchase price of the new systems. For two systems, dealer should give you a price break.I have ext warranty on my 8 yr old Trane system, have yet to use it. But then I had it on some rental property and a repair was nearly 1 1/2 times the cost of the warranty. Trane picked up the cost 100%. Go figure.

IMO